NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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A forensic analysis of the pilot's notebooks will provide the truth, will be very simple, if they were asleep then there will be no HD writes during the 80 minutes.
A keylogger or other special software could provide a useful trail (grossly similar to a CVR or FDR), but such gadgets are not normally installed on ordinary PCs.
You can get an idea of what a PC is often used for, or has been used for in the past, by looking at what is on the disk drive(s), but you can't really reconstruct specific activities in the past. You could establish that a porn site had been visited from the PC, for example, but you wouldn't necessarily be able to establish what had been done on the site. Figuring out if and how pilots used their laptops during a specific 78-minute period on a flight would require finer resolution than an examination of the disk drive is likely to provide.
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The press is full of stuff about former NTSB members who condemn the crew.
Has the union or legal council for the crew gotten involved?
If reading the company manuals is OK but runing a PC is not OK, there might be a cat fight brewing if they claimed to be reading the manuals on a PC; right?
Has the union or legal council for the crew gotten involved?
If reading the company manuals is OK but runing a PC is not OK, there might be a cat fight brewing if they claimed to be reading the manuals on a PC; right?
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If reading the company manuals is OK but runing a PC is not OK, there might be a cat fight brewing if they claimed to be reading the manuals on a PC; right?
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Unfortunately, it isn't quite that simple. Modern PCs have a great deal going on inside of them even when they are "idle," so it's very difficult to tell what has been done with the PC over a specific, short period of time. No record of mouse activity, keyboard input, or disk activity is kept beyond the simplest statistics, and the disk drive is regularly used for both reads and writes even on a completely idle system.
When you close the lid on your notebook, then reopen it later, it's in the exact same place of the letter you were writing, it has to store that info somewhere.
The fact that the pilots are expected to be honest and tell the investigators what exactly they were doing on their notebooks, would be easy to confirm by checking the hard drive, unless they deliberately cleaned their notebooks, but then it would be easy to see they had done so.
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The press is full of stuff about former NTSB members who condemn the crew.
Has the union or legal council for the crew gotten involved?
Has the union or legal council for the crew gotten involved?
The Delta MEC has released the somewhat expected statement that the facts will become known as the investigation runs its course and that leaking of voluntary statements jeoparizes anonymous reporting programs like ASAP and FOQA:
Pilot News
If reading the company manuals is OK but runing a PC is not OK, there might be a cat fight brewing if they claimed to be reading the manuals on a PC; right?
Don't know, but paper bid packages may be passé at Delta these days. Sadly, these two guys may not have to worry about submitting a bid for a while.
It would seem fairly obvious that if the computers were blamed for the 'pilot distraction' of over an hour they would be brought into evidence.
For example, when a Metrolink train collision occured involving the possibility of unauthorized cellphone use, the cellphone records were subpoenaed by the NTSB:
Metrolink investigators subpoena engineer's cell phone records - KPCC News In Brief
Last edited by Airbubba; 27th Oct 2009 at 22:28.
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Well I'd just like to know what the damn dog was doing all that time... You know, the dog that watches the pilots and bites them if they touch the controls.
Bad dog!
Bad dog!
Did y'all notice in the most recent news that the NTSB has specifically declined to impound/examine the laptops in question because "they said they were using them, what else is there to know?"
Once again, all of this conjecture has been rendered academic...
Once again, all of this conjecture has been rendered academic...
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From CNN.com
"The FAA says it has revoked the licenses of two Northwest Airlines pilots who overflew a Minnesota airport last week."
Does this mean they just lost their first class license or did they lose their PPL and can't even fly a 152?
"The FAA says it has revoked the licenses of two Northwest Airlines pilots who overflew a Minnesota airport last week."
Does this mean they just lost their first class license or did they lose their PPL and can't even fly a 152?
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FAA Revokes Pilot Licenses
Yes braddurne, appears that the FAA has ruined some careers.
Did these pilots file a "Aviation Safety Report Form" upon landing? Does such a form lessen the chance of a license suspension?
FAA Revokes Pilot Licenses
Washington Headquarters Press Release
I am very sorry about this action by the FAA. I hope that an administrative appeal helps this somewhat hasty decision.
Did these pilots file a "Aviation Safety Report Form" upon landing? Does such a form lessen the chance of a license suspension?
FAA Revokes Pilot Licenses
Washington Headquarters Press Release
I am very sorry about this action by the FAA. I hope that an administrative appeal helps this somewhat hasty decision.
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There can be no excuses.
Any pilot reading these Posts must be astonished at any suggestion of mitigating circumstances.
This will no doubt be a new 'favouite' for CRM training.
Although I have flown with pilots who have fallen asleep, the possibility of both pilots falling asleep in a short-haul operation or, more unbelievably, using laptops for an extended period of time - WITH NO MONITORING - is beyond reasonable comprehension - especially for pilots of the experience and hours quoted.
Where was the CRM with the cabin crew who, in all airlines I have flown with, are supposed to check on flight deck every 20 minutes or so? Maybe that would have distracted them long enough to make them realise they were actually supposed to be flying .the aeroplane?!
The usual chain of events which lead to an accident seem to have taken hold here, luckily without an unhappy ending.
Revoking their licences should be the least of their worries!
FOK
PS: jburke appears to have been aptly named
Any pilot reading these Posts must be astonished at any suggestion of mitigating circumstances.
This will no doubt be a new 'favouite' for CRM training.
Although I have flown with pilots who have fallen asleep, the possibility of both pilots falling asleep in a short-haul operation or, more unbelievably, using laptops for an extended period of time - WITH NO MONITORING - is beyond reasonable comprehension - especially for pilots of the experience and hours quoted.
Where was the CRM with the cabin crew who, in all airlines I have flown with, are supposed to check on flight deck every 20 minutes or so? Maybe that would have distracted them long enough to make them realise they were actually supposed to be flying .the aeroplane?!
The usual chain of events which lead to an accident seem to have taken hold here, luckily without an unhappy ending.
Revoking their licences should be the least of their worries!
FOK
PS: jburke appears to have been aptly named
C'mon. There is absolutely no way that someone missed a handoff for more than an hour due to screwing around with a laptop. Even on lonely flights across the blackest reaches of the upper midwest in the dead of winter, after fifteen minutes or so without hearing a call, everyone starts checking charts or twiddling with the FMS to ensure that the frequency in the box matches.
It did not take thirty minutes or more to notice radio silence.
The local news does not praise these pilots for getting absorbed in their computers. You can get arrested around here for using a cell phone or text messaging while driving a car, so sympathy runs thin.
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I've read alot on this thread. Some are horrified that this thing could have happened.
Well, SH^&* happens all the time. I'll bet , right now, there are a hundred cockpits of airliners that have laptops out and in use. I'll bet right now, that there are at least 10 missed hand offs over america right now.
At one time in my career, I expected a very high level of professionalism in the cockpit. Now, having flown many years. I am surprised when I get a high level of dedication.
you british guys are really making me laugh...every 20 minutes the FA's are to call up.
ha
Well, SH^&* happens all the time. I'll bet , right now, there are a hundred cockpits of airliners that have laptops out and in use. I'll bet right now, that there are at least 10 missed hand offs over america right now.
At one time in my career, I expected a very high level of professionalism in the cockpit. Now, having flown many years. I am surprised when I get a high level of dedication.
you british guys are really making me laugh...every 20 minutes the FA's are to call up.
ha
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very very sad news
Much as on the surface the action seems appropriate - and perhaps even digging deeper maybe even more so, I am still struck with a deep sense of loss and sadness on hearing the decision sent down by the FAA. Tis one thing to lose a job - but to lose ones livelihood is something else altogether, especially at the end of an otherwise stellar career.
I confess to a jarring disconnect with the outcome of this vs the outcome of many an 'FAA investigation' of airline maintenance (and lack of same) where the airlines are permitted to keep flying even as bits fall off to the ground below. Perhaps a fine, a period of retraining, a cooling of period, and maybe never rostering these two together would have been enough?
I confess to a jarring disconnect with the outcome of this vs the outcome of many an 'FAA investigation' of airline maintenance (and lack of same) where the airlines are permitted to keep flying even as bits fall off to the ground below. Perhaps a fine, a period of retraining, a cooling of period, and maybe never rostering these two together would have been enough?
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The pilots can appeal the revocation to the NTSB, but most of us here in the US would be amazed if the NTSB were to reverse this revocation. The NTSB can extend leniency if there are major extenuating circumstances. I do not see them in this case. Can anyone else provide an argument for reversing the FAA revocation other than "we are all human" or similar?
As I have said previously, they would have been better off if they had actually fallen asleep. Then they would have faced a license suspension, some sleep apnea testing, and eventual reinstatement.
As I have said previously, they would have been better off if they had actually fallen asleep. Then they would have faced a license suspension, some sleep apnea testing, and eventual reinstatement.
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Appeals on certificate actions are to the NTSB, not the FAA. Appeal from the NTSB is to the Federal courts.
For an incident involving no apparent misrepresentation, criminal action, accident or injury, this is a harsh penalty. They can't so much as run a 152 around the pattern at the local airport -- their licenses are gone.
For an incident involving no apparent misrepresentation, criminal action, accident or injury, this is a harsh penalty. They can't so much as run a 152 around the pattern at the local airport -- their licenses are gone.