Your slot's cancelled!
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Cossack,
We have 10 mins for both TIS and TRS, and I do agree with you about how some crews are not aware of the RFI/REA. I often get crews call up 20 mins before the slot for start, even though they've been ready for half an hour but haven't called up because 'company have sent a ready message' - RFI.Gonzo.
We have 10 mins for both TIS and TRS, and I do agree with you about how some crews are not aware of the RFI/REA. I often get crews call up 20 mins before the slot for start, even though they've been ready for half an hour but haven't called up because 'company have sent a ready message' - RFI.Gonzo.
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Chiglet: From the handling agents viewpoint: we're not all "pains" as you put it. Where I work we always endeavour to board pax ASAP even if we know there's a bad slot; this is OK where it's the airline's stated policy to board on time/ASAP, but some airline's pilots refuse to board their pax even at the risk of missing the slot should it improve. Spanair are a prime example of this; they sometimes insist on not commencing boarding until T-25 minutes on a late slot even when we tell them that this mightn't be the best option! And then the slot generally comes forward halfway through boarding! You can't win. I can see where such pilots are coming from when it comes to not wanting to have pax on board for an hour before departure, but they don't seem to appreciate that slots do improve sometimes. Incidentally on a more humorous note, I dealt with an IL76 cargo flight a while ago that filed a flight plan at 18:30 and ended up with a slot at 21:25 the FOLLOWING evening. Ouch!
Twisted
Thanks for your most recent post. I always try to reduce delays through "my" sector to a minimum consistent with safety. I was worried that, from my interpretation of your initial post on this thread, this was causing serious problems further down the line when I was able to significantly improve a slot. Now that you have made it clear that we both have the same objective, as I originally believed, I will continue as before in trying to get you airborne asap.
Thank you.
Thanks for your most recent post. I always try to reduce delays through "my" sector to a minimum consistent with safety. I was worried that, from my interpretation of your initial post on this thread, this was causing serious problems further down the line when I was able to significantly improve a slot. Now that you have made it clear that we both have the same objective, as I originally believed, I will continue as before in trying to get you airborne asap.
Thank you.
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In reply to gul dukat's gripe of the 2/9/2001.
I was the flow manager who was responsible for the revisions to your flight that night so I'll explain.
The Flow management position at London Air Traffic Control Centre advised us that they were short of staff for the night shift - one of the controllers had gone u/s in the car park on his way into work. Unfortunatly he was one of only two who held a validation for the Seaford sector that night. The result was that they had to physically close the sector every two hours for 30 mins to give the other guy a break (legal requirement).
Because of the short notice the flow measures had to be applied immediately with the dreadful results that you experienced.
Normally we do not revise slots for flights within 30 mins of departure, but if the airspace is closed its closed, full stop.
We then worked as fast as possible, with London, to move traffic that did not have to fly through that sector, and improve flights into free slots so created. London also agreed to move some traffic in flight. If you received a revision it would have been as a result of these efforts.
So don't blame the guys at Eurocontrol, don't blame anyone. We are all trying to do our jobs to the best of our ability and sometimes that involves dealing with ****ty situations such as the one you experienced.
SO, I've stuck my head above the parapet now, but I'll be happy to try and answer some of your questions. There are some angry pilots out there, but we can talk........
flowman
I was the flow manager who was responsible for the revisions to your flight that night so I'll explain.
The Flow management position at London Air Traffic Control Centre advised us that they were short of staff for the night shift - one of the controllers had gone u/s in the car park on his way into work. Unfortunatly he was one of only two who held a validation for the Seaford sector that night. The result was that they had to physically close the sector every two hours for 30 mins to give the other guy a break (legal requirement).
Because of the short notice the flow measures had to be applied immediately with the dreadful results that you experienced.
Normally we do not revise slots for flights within 30 mins of departure, but if the airspace is closed its closed, full stop.
We then worked as fast as possible, with London, to move traffic that did not have to fly through that sector, and improve flights into free slots so created. London also agreed to move some traffic in flight. If you received a revision it would have been as a result of these efforts.
So don't blame the guys at Eurocontrol, don't blame anyone. We are all trying to do our jobs to the best of our ability and sometimes that involves dealing with ****ty situations such as the one you experienced.
SO, I've stuck my head above the parapet now, but I'll be happy to try and answer some of your questions. There are some angry pilots out there, but we can talk........
flowman
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In reply to FlapsOne's entry of 2/9/01.
If you are going to miss your slot because of an unforeseen problem at an airfield, ATC at that airfield are obliged to call Flow for a new slot (or an extension to the existing slot).
We then have a number of options.
We check the load in the critical sectors, if there is room we agree to the extension. If there is no room, we can still agree to the extension and move another flight in the affected sector to a different slot (by swapping to your old slot for example).
In exceptional cases where there is a load problem in the sectors involved (too many flights) or its too late to move any of the other flights in the sector (already airborne for example)we may have to refuse the slot extension, but that really is a last resort, after all missed slots are wasted slots.
To answer your question, the point of the slot in the first place was to protect ATC from overdelivery of traffic- that's dangerous. The reason you can still go anyway even though you've missed the original slot is because the faceless bastards in the background (like me) are beavering away to try and make the whole thing run smoothly.
If you prefer we can send you back to stand to wait for another slot, but I don't think that will make you feel any better (or us).
If you are going to miss your slot because of an unforeseen problem at an airfield, ATC at that airfield are obliged to call Flow for a new slot (or an extension to the existing slot).
We then have a number of options.
We check the load in the critical sectors, if there is room we agree to the extension. If there is no room, we can still agree to the extension and move another flight in the affected sector to a different slot (by swapping to your old slot for example).
In exceptional cases where there is a load problem in the sectors involved (too many flights) or its too late to move any of the other flights in the sector (already airborne for example)we may have to refuse the slot extension, but that really is a last resort, after all missed slots are wasted slots.
To answer your question, the point of the slot in the first place was to protect ATC from overdelivery of traffic- that's dangerous. The reason you can still go anyway even though you've missed the original slot is because the faceless bastards in the background (like me) are beavering away to try and make the whole thing run smoothly.
If you prefer we can send you back to stand to wait for another slot, but I don't think that will make you feel any better (or us).
Flowman
Thanks for the info. It's helpful to understand what goes on behind the scenes.
When you say:
do you mean that you don't make the slot later within 30 mins of departure, or that you don't make it earlier? My limited understanding of the system is that a slot shouldn't be moved earlier unless a RDY or RFI has been sent. For those of us without ops departments, it would be very difficult if we had slots moved forward without a SIP -- how would we find out?
Thanks for the info. It's helpful to understand what goes on behind the scenes.
When you say:
Normally we do not revise slots for flights within 30 mins of departure
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Flow man Thanks for that .The person who gets it in the neck is the controller at point of sale ..IE ME!.I will obviously accept delays and have done ,in this case however ,it looked like I was taking the pi$$ .I am aware that there is a much bigger picture but what about letting me know what the problem was instead of just stuffing on delay followed by delay ..a DD message with a few lines on it EXPLAINING to the guy at the airfield would be nice .The DD as you know will alert the assistant or controller to the urgency of the situation and make him feel less like a numpty when he cancels push and start or in my case threatens to send a guy back to stand!
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In reply to Bookworm's question:
Slots will not normally be revised within 30 mins of departure unless a flight has been declared "ready for improvement" (RFI) or if ATC tell us that the flight is ready to accept any short notice improvement in which case they send us an REA message. This normally contains a minimum line up time.
The RDY message died earlier this year and is no longer used - ATC were often unable to cope with short notice changes to the slot, hence the new system.
If you do not have an Ops department and your flight is in SIP wanted status any slot improvement proposal will be sent to the AIS at the departure airfield or to the originator of the flight plan.
Of course all of this goes out of the window for emergency "stop the traffic" type situations.
I hope this helps clear things up for you.
Slots will not normally be revised within 30 mins of departure unless a flight has been declared "ready for improvement" (RFI) or if ATC tell us that the flight is ready to accept any short notice improvement in which case they send us an REA message. This normally contains a minimum line up time.
The RDY message died earlier this year and is no longer used - ATC were often unable to cope with short notice changes to the slot, hence the new system.
If you do not have an Ops department and your flight is in SIP wanted status any slot improvement proposal will be sent to the AIS at the departure airfield or to the originator of the flight plan.
Of course all of this goes out of the window for emergency "stop the traffic" type situations.
I hope this helps clear things up for you.
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To ALL aircrews/handling agents and airline ops peeps. Phone ATC at your unit and ASK FOR A VISIT!!!!! [99 times out of 100, you WILL be accomodated although perhaps not quite "right away"] and see for yourselves the nuances. In return, perhaps ATC could [daren't say should] reciprocate. 
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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All you well intentioned ATC-ers.
An example from yesterday.
STD - 13:45
CTOT - 14:00 Brilliant.
Push and start 13:45
As we pushing back, ATC - your slot has just become 14:29 what are your intentions????
Well we're already pushing, surely we're in the system so we could just take off? Nope. sorry. Carried on pushing, then held remote followed by 2 more slot changes, eventually left at 14:10.
ATC-ers should we not be allowed to continue once we have pushed for a slot within the allowed time. Even if this means revising your capacity in our favour? I found yesterday's ATC game somewhat difficult to stomach. Then of course on our way, there are huge periods of silence on the French and Swiss etc... frequencies. (I know so London might have been busy, yippee).
So come on guys, don't bother to explain this to me, just get some common sense into this anti-aviation system and get us all airborne once we've pushed ey???
An example from yesterday.
STD - 13:45
CTOT - 14:00 Brilliant.
Push and start 13:45
As we pushing back, ATC - your slot has just become 14:29 what are your intentions????
Well we're already pushing, surely we're in the system so we could just take off? Nope. sorry. Carried on pushing, then held remote followed by 2 more slot changes, eventually left at 14:10.
ATC-ers should we not be allowed to continue once we have pushed for a slot within the allowed time. Even if this means revising your capacity in our favour? I found yesterday's ATC game somewhat difficult to stomach. Then of course on our way, there are huge periods of silence on the French and Swiss etc... frequencies. (I know so London might have been busy, yippee).
So come on guys, don't bother to explain this to me, just get some common sense into this anti-aviation system and get us all airborne once we've pushed ey???
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If Twisted Firefighter wants to e-mail me some details or stick them on this bulletin board I'll find out what happened. I can't be more accomodating than offer his own personal investigation service. Give me some hard facts and I'll respond.
I need aerodrome of departure, destination and off blocks time. I'll find the rest.
I need aerodrome of departure, destination and off blocks time. I'll find the rest.
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Flowman
I wouldn't bother. With his attitude he neither appears to want to believe what he's told, nor listen to it.
Twistedfirefighter
Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle, come in kettle.
You come out giving the lecture to ATC Watcher and Numpo Nigit
This from someone who starts the thread off with a comment like
Perhaps I can use one of your quotes for myself next.
Did you ever ask your Ops people to find out what these problems were due to ?? They can you know, as they have access to the CFMU equipment which will show exactly what the slot was all about. And then if you don't believe the reason, or have a gripe, you will know exactly which Area Control Centre to call up about it. They would be happy to try and discuss the situation with you and let you know what is going on.
On last minute changes, let's take an example. Doesn't happen every day but not too uncommon now and then to have a runway blocked, could be a burst tyre, aircraft come off the paved area, whatever. So the airfield and the TMA around it may put on restrictions - very very suddenly. You're just pushing when this happens unfortunately. And you want us to still let you go ?? Meanwhile everyone else plays it your way and wants the same. Only thing is, there's no runway any more so there's lots of holding and diversions taking place. But hey, you're all pushed back so we should just let you get into the system which is going to become clogged up. Can't have an anti-aviation system whose prime goal is the safe and efficient movement of air traffic getting in the way after all. An extreme example perhaps, but do you know this wasn't what happened in your second situation. Oh hang on, I apologise, looks like I just wasted your time.
Fortunately for all the other pilots reading, people in ATC and the FMU WILL try to improve slots where they can, WILL cancel regulations as soon as they feel it's safe to do so, and WILL try to explain to operators the rationale behind them if enquiries are made. It is the least that professionals would do. I am sure that the vast majority of you would wish us to continue to do so and accept the reasoning provided for individual or generic cases, which are providing assistance to a better operation in the greater scheme of things. For some though it will always be a case of me, me, me, and sod everyone else and their problems.
So, if you really want to see how it all hangs together, visit your local Flow Management Position at your local ACC, or visit the CFMU near Brussels Airport. I would like to think that you will find it very educational. It might also demonstrate that we don't know which aircraft Twistedfirefighter is on and that all his woes are not personally directed at him by his 'friends' in ATC and the CFMU
I wouldn't bother. With his attitude he neither appears to want to believe what he's told, nor listen to it.
Twistedfirefighter
Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle, come in kettle.
You come out giving the lecture to ATC Watcher and Numpo Nigit
- Is it absolutely necessary to give a reply which even when is partly informative - contains some stupid personal remark
What MORON is in charge at Brussels?
I think I'll let the rest of the pilots here to judge the above
Did you ever ask your Ops people to find out what these problems were due to ?? They can you know, as they have access to the CFMU equipment which will show exactly what the slot was all about. And then if you don't believe the reason, or have a gripe, you will know exactly which Area Control Centre to call up about it. They would be happy to try and discuss the situation with you and let you know what is going on.
On last minute changes, let's take an example. Doesn't happen every day but not too uncommon now and then to have a runway blocked, could be a burst tyre, aircraft come off the paved area, whatever. So the airfield and the TMA around it may put on restrictions - very very suddenly. You're just pushing when this happens unfortunately. And you want us to still let you go ?? Meanwhile everyone else plays it your way and wants the same. Only thing is, there's no runway any more so there's lots of holding and diversions taking place. But hey, you're all pushed back so we should just let you get into the system which is going to become clogged up. Can't have an anti-aviation system whose prime goal is the safe and efficient movement of air traffic getting in the way after all. An extreme example perhaps, but do you know this wasn't what happened in your second situation. Oh hang on, I apologise, looks like I just wasted your time.
So come on guys, don't bother to explain this to me
Fortunately for all the other pilots reading, people in ATC and the FMU WILL try to improve slots where they can, WILL cancel regulations as soon as they feel it's safe to do so, and WILL try to explain to operators the rationale behind them if enquiries are made. It is the least that professionals would do. I am sure that the vast majority of you would wish us to continue to do so and accept the reasoning provided for individual or generic cases, which are providing assistance to a better operation in the greater scheme of things. For some though it will always be a case of me, me, me, and sod everyone else and their problems.
So, if you really want to see how it all hangs together, visit your local Flow Management Position at your local ACC, or visit the CFMU near Brussels Airport. I would like to think that you will find it very educational. It might also demonstrate that we don't know which aircraft Twistedfirefighter is on and that all his woes are not personally directed at him by his 'friends' in ATC and the CFMU
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Flowman et-al,
Your comments are very interesting, after following all the pages of this thread it appears that a lot of the problems directed at the ATC community are in error. There appears to be many problems blamed on ATC when it is individual company practices with respect to delays that need reviewing at local levels. Concering PMI in general, not the night in question, I was told that they have a new policy on a/c arriving "off-slot" i.e late. The subject a/c is given the last available departure slot, and is allowed to disembark pax only on arrival. 2 hrs before slot inbound bags offloaded, check-in can open, once i/b bags offloaded, o/b bags can be loaded. All seems v.v. strange to me, and have bee uinable to determine its accuracy. What does wind the PMI atc up is pilots not obeying the instructions for obtaining start clearance, and when people cheat calling early etc. In paphos this is not permitted as the guys in the follow-me vehicles observe the a/c and pass by radio the stauts af any a/c requesting start.
Question for Flowman or other ATC ers what are the implications at the CFMU of cheating as some operators do, i.e calling for start early then not being ready.
Ta
Your comments are very interesting, after following all the pages of this thread it appears that a lot of the problems directed at the ATC community are in error. There appears to be many problems blamed on ATC when it is individual company practices with respect to delays that need reviewing at local levels. Concering PMI in general, not the night in question, I was told that they have a new policy on a/c arriving "off-slot" i.e late. The subject a/c is given the last available departure slot, and is allowed to disembark pax only on arrival. 2 hrs before slot inbound bags offloaded, check-in can open, once i/b bags offloaded, o/b bags can be loaded. All seems v.v. strange to me, and have bee uinable to determine its accuracy. What does wind the PMI atc up is pilots not obeying the instructions for obtaining start clearance, and when people cheat calling early etc. In paphos this is not permitted as the guys in the follow-me vehicles observe the a/c and pass by radio the stauts af any a/c requesting start.
Question for Flowman or other ATC ers what are the implications at the CFMU of cheating as some operators do, i.e calling for start early then not being ready.
Ta
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TwistedFirefighter, your e-mail is "blocked by the administrators", so here's your reply.
Okay, at 1340 Geneva alerted us to an impending overload in their sector between
1500 and 1600 UTC.They say it was due to aircraft climbing above their FPL level
(they would not previously have been counted) and requested that we reduce the traffic
to the correct number. This was done at 1344, the usual 30 minutes parameter was
overridden otherwise there would have been an insufficient reduction in traffic.
This is when you received your first slot revision.
At 1346 EGBB TWR sent an REA message telling us that you could be airborne within
10 minutes. This prompted the two subsequent revisions as the machine reallocated
any vacant slots. Why there were vacant slots in such a situation is not clear, I
would have to look at the messaging for the other affected flights (about 50 of them),
but a Zurich sector was modified at about the same time- that could have moved some
of the other traffic.
Just to explain the first bit, we have a big problem with aircraft being filed below
regulations and then climbing into them. Some do this deliberately, queue jumping
if you like. Others use it as a legitimate way of avoiding delay, unfortunately if the
crews are not briefed accordingly they will accept climb offered by other ATC units (who
are normally unaware of problems which may be several sectors down the line).
Most of the overloads we investigate are due to either this problem or aircraft
departing outside slots. Don't forget that even the existing slot window of -5 +10
in a sector with a capacity of 60 per hour can deliver 75 flights (10 from the
previous hour, 5 from the next hour).
So the closer the system gets to its limits the more rigid it becomes. We either have
to accept less flexibility or higher delays overall.
Flowman.
Okay, at 1340 Geneva alerted us to an impending overload in their sector between
1500 and 1600 UTC.They say it was due to aircraft climbing above their FPL level
(they would not previously have been counted) and requested that we reduce the traffic
to the correct number. This was done at 1344, the usual 30 minutes parameter was
overridden otherwise there would have been an insufficient reduction in traffic.
This is when you received your first slot revision.
At 1346 EGBB TWR sent an REA message telling us that you could be airborne within
10 minutes. This prompted the two subsequent revisions as the machine reallocated
any vacant slots. Why there were vacant slots in such a situation is not clear, I
would have to look at the messaging for the other affected flights (about 50 of them),
but a Zurich sector was modified at about the same time- that could have moved some
of the other traffic.
Just to explain the first bit, we have a big problem with aircraft being filed below
regulations and then climbing into them. Some do this deliberately, queue jumping
if you like. Others use it as a legitimate way of avoiding delay, unfortunately if the
crews are not briefed accordingly they will accept climb offered by other ATC units (who
are normally unaware of problems which may be several sectors down the line).
Most of the overloads we investigate are due to either this problem or aircraft
departing outside slots. Don't forget that even the existing slot window of -5 +10
in a sector with a capacity of 60 per hour can deliver 75 flights (10 from the
previous hour, 5 from the next hour).
So the closer the system gets to its limits the more rigid it becomes. We either have
to accept less flexibility or higher delays overall.
Flowman.
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Im finding it hard to comprehend some of the postings on this thread. FlapsOne, what do you think slots are for in the first place, just a bit of a rib-tickler for ATC guys to use to get some laughs? They are there to protect YOU from getting into a situation where you might be less than 100% safe. I'll say that again, 100% safe!
The restriction which is being applied may apply at some sector thousands of miles from your departure aerodrome, so "good on" the neddies who apply that to you as a departure slot time. Maybe they should give it to you as an arrive at position XXX between time ABCD and WXYZ, and let you work the numbers out for yourself, maybe not.
The bottom line is... keeping it ALL - SAFE. No more, no less. Would you fly your kite above Vne in turbulence just to keep YOUR customers happy..I hope not.
Keep a handle on it guys, ATC is not there to restrict, it is there to TRY and keep us all safe.
SuckSqweezBangBlaw
The restriction which is being applied may apply at some sector thousands of miles from your departure aerodrome, so "good on" the neddies who apply that to you as a departure slot time. Maybe they should give it to you as an arrive at position XXX between time ABCD and WXYZ, and let you work the numbers out for yourself, maybe not.
The bottom line is... keeping it ALL - SAFE. No more, no less. Would you fly your kite above Vne in turbulence just to keep YOUR customers happy..I hope not.
Keep a handle on it guys, ATC is not there to restrict, it is there to TRY and keep us all safe.
SuckSqweezBangBlaw
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Flowman,
Thanks for the explanation.
For now, I must turn to yesterday's events and try to sort my head out over that.
I'm dropping out of here, p'raps we'll debate slots when they become THE important thing again one day.
T.
Thanks for the explanation.
For now, I must turn to yesterday's events and try to sort my head out over that.
I'm dropping out of here, p'raps we'll debate slots when they become THE important thing again one day.
T.
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Flowman,
------------------------------------------
Others use it as a legitimate way of avoiding delay, unfortunately if the
crews are not briefed accordingly they will accept climb offered by other ATC units (who
are normally unaware of problems which may be several sectors down the line).
-------------------------------------------
I understand you have a problem with this, but don't you think this is the ATC unit's problem rather than the operator's? We regularly refile below a restriction, and I don't think a crew needs to be briefed about that particular ATC problem: if they get their CFP at FL290, they know what to expect and their fuel will be planned accordingly. If the controllers want to give them higher anyways, then why should they refuse? These things make us save money.
Furthermore: why do the AIMs we regularly receive ask the operator to fly the filed levels when this is something that can easily be imposed by the controller? This also eliminates the problem of one controller not knowing that 2 or 3 centres further there is a problem at a certain level.
I suppose I'm missing something here, but you have to admit that at first sight it's quite strange to say the least. Any comments are welcome.
------------------------------------------
Others use it as a legitimate way of avoiding delay, unfortunately if the
crews are not briefed accordingly they will accept climb offered by other ATC units (who
are normally unaware of problems which may be several sectors down the line).
-------------------------------------------
I understand you have a problem with this, but don't you think this is the ATC unit's problem rather than the operator's? We regularly refile below a restriction, and I don't think a crew needs to be briefed about that particular ATC problem: if they get their CFP at FL290, they know what to expect and their fuel will be planned accordingly. If the controllers want to give them higher anyways, then why should they refuse? These things make us save money.
Furthermore: why do the AIMs we regularly receive ask the operator to fly the filed levels when this is something that can easily be imposed by the controller? This also eliminates the problem of one controller not knowing that 2 or 3 centres further there is a problem at a certain level.
I suppose I'm missing something here, but you have to admit that at first sight it's quite strange to say the least. Any comments are welcome.
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It all seems inconsequential after recent events, but we have to carry on as normal or the bastards have won.
So, for fadec_primary_channel the answer is straightforward, cheating results in a medium term reduction in capacity.
If an ACC declares a capacity of 50 flights per hour and regularly receives 55, it won’t take them long to reduce capacity to 45.
The most common causes of overloads in ATC sectors are aircraft departing outside their slots, and flights turning up at other than filed levels.
Bear in mind as well that even with the existing slot tolerance of -5 +10 that a sector with a capacity of 60 flights per hour can in theory receive 75 flights; 10 from the previous hour and 5 from the next hour.
Increased flexibility would have to mean a reduction in capacity and therefore increased delays.
CIV5C: What you say is partly true, the controllers could keep you at your flight planned level, but that too is very inflexible. Many aircraft operators are perfectly happy to brief their crews according to flow requirements, I don’t see why you have a problem with it. The alternative, as Davey Clark suggests is to give you an “arrive position XXX at time YYYY and FLZZZ”.
That strikes me as being much more cumbersome. Correct me if I’m wrong...
So, for fadec_primary_channel the answer is straightforward, cheating results in a medium term reduction in capacity.
If an ACC declares a capacity of 50 flights per hour and regularly receives 55, it won’t take them long to reduce capacity to 45.
The most common causes of overloads in ATC sectors are aircraft departing outside their slots, and flights turning up at other than filed levels.
Bear in mind as well that even with the existing slot tolerance of -5 +10 that a sector with a capacity of 60 flights per hour can in theory receive 75 flights; 10 from the previous hour and 5 from the next hour.
Increased flexibility would have to mean a reduction in capacity and therefore increased delays.
CIV5C: What you say is partly true, the controllers could keep you at your flight planned level, but that too is very inflexible. Many aircraft operators are perfectly happy to brief their crews according to flow requirements, I don’t see why you have a problem with it. The alternative, as Davey Clark suggests is to give you an “arrive position XXX at time YYYY and FLZZZ”.
That strikes me as being much more cumbersome. Correct me if I’m wrong...
