Your slot's cancelled!
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Devils A. Don't think you got an answer to your question about the annual slot bash. I'm afraid that is airport capacity not en route daily capacity. Different animal.
However if someone decides to take their local ATC staff to an exotic destination to discuss local slot times ..........
However if someone decides to take their local ATC staff to an exotic destination to discuss local slot times ..........
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Right, lets pull back a little and look at the larger picture. Controllers are maxing out, too many aircraft flying in limited airspaces and the whole thing is set to get WORSE. So what's going to happen?
I think that we as a human race couldn't be more stupid, selfish and evil. What we MUST understand is that just in order to "keep" a certain route we increase frequency on it with little silly sized RJs which now clog up the system and doing a great deal of damage to all of us. Airlines will eventually be made to "take turns" to a destination and only will be allowed to fly on certain days of the week, while others on alternate days. (Great for aircrew)!
This stupid greedy situation is what needs addressing right now. Intelligent conferences followed by intelligent decisions and implementations and the REDUCTION of traffic is what's needed.
Not the reduction of aircraft sizes!!!!!
I for one don't think we will get there. I think we'll just carry on as stupid as we are and end up like the M6 every day.
So good luck to all the boffins and software scientists amongst you - it's the big picture we must understand.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: yorkunt ]
I think that we as a human race couldn't be more stupid, selfish and evil. What we MUST understand is that just in order to "keep" a certain route we increase frequency on it with little silly sized RJs which now clog up the system and doing a great deal of damage to all of us. Airlines will eventually be made to "take turns" to a destination and only will be allowed to fly on certain days of the week, while others on alternate days. (Great for aircrew)!
This stupid greedy situation is what needs addressing right now. Intelligent conferences followed by intelligent decisions and implementations and the REDUCTION of traffic is what's needed.
Not the reduction of aircraft sizes!!!!!
I for one don't think we will get there. I think we'll just carry on as stupid as we are and end up like the M6 every day.
So good luck to all the boffins and software scientists amongst you - it's the big picture we must understand.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: yorkunt ]
Yorkhunt
I agree with you completely.
In an attempt to foster competition on routes, slots at the major London airports for example have been given to newcomers to operate routes. The result of this has been, on many occasions, a reduction in the size of the aircraft on a particular route with another small aircraft of another carrier also operating the route at a similar time. The result is no benefit to the passengers (same number of seats offered) but increased congestion and delays, as well as environmental costs.
I suppose that at least it keeps pilots and controllers in a job.
I agree with you completely.
In an attempt to foster competition on routes, slots at the major London airports for example have been given to newcomers to operate routes. The result of this has been, on many occasions, a reduction in the size of the aircraft on a particular route with another small aircraft of another carrier also operating the route at a similar time. The result is no benefit to the passengers (same number of seats offered) but increased congestion and delays, as well as environmental costs.
I suppose that at least it keeps pilots and controllers in a job.
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It might fill the sky with smaller a/c but this is what a working market mechanism should look like for the customer. La Guardia promoted slots just for smaller new entrants. Please don't hope that just keeping the current situation will make things better. ATC in Europe is some serious organisational issue not that of true airspace capacity. Get mil-airspace reduced and unite centers. Well, easy to claim I know. 
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Devils Advocate
Whilst I am not qualified to provide an answer to your questions with regards to the Annual Slot conference, I will have a go on the basis of information that I have access to.
Firstly, I assume that you are referring to the IATA Schedules Conference that meets twice a year – in June and November.
To quote from the IATA World Scheduling Guidelines, ‘The purpose of this voluntary assembly of both IATA and non-IATA airlines worldwide, is to provide a forum for the allocation of slots at fully coordinated airport (Level 3), and for the reaching of consensus on the schedule adjustments necessary to conform to airport capacity limitations (Level 2).’
With regards to the allocation of slots – which as you are aware, are based not just on runway availability, but also apron and terminal capacity – these are based on firstly historical slots, and then the remaining slots are placed in a pool for use by new entrants and airlines looking to extend an existing seasonal service to a year-round one.
All of the above only relates to the allocation of slots at the airport and does not take into accounts delays that may occur as a result of ATC, staffing or operational problems – if only we lived in a perfect world!
As you will see from this, there seems little connection – on this occasion - between your question and that of the problem being raised in this forum.
Regards
Scottie Dog
Whilst I am not qualified to provide an answer to your questions with regards to the Annual Slot conference, I will have a go on the basis of information that I have access to.
Firstly, I assume that you are referring to the IATA Schedules Conference that meets twice a year – in June and November.
To quote from the IATA World Scheduling Guidelines, ‘The purpose of this voluntary assembly of both IATA and non-IATA airlines worldwide, is to provide a forum for the allocation of slots at fully coordinated airport (Level 3), and for the reaching of consensus on the schedule adjustments necessary to conform to airport capacity limitations (Level 2).’
With regards to the allocation of slots – which as you are aware, are based not just on runway availability, but also apron and terminal capacity – these are based on firstly historical slots, and then the remaining slots are placed in a pool for use by new entrants and airlines looking to extend an existing seasonal service to a year-round one.
All of the above only relates to the allocation of slots at the airport and does not take into accounts delays that may occur as a result of ATC, staffing or operational problems – if only we lived in a perfect world!
As you will see from this, there seems little connection – on this occasion - between your question and that of the problem being raised in this forum.
Regards
Scottie Dog
Pegase Driver
It is quite amazing to realize how little aircrews actually know about ATFM. Mixing up airport slots with ATFM ones will not help you much in your quest to understand the big picture.
(Now I have to defend the CFMU ! Big change )
(To the Guvnor : Avman is on leave but is not, and by far the only man in Eurocontrol in this Forum.. By the way I am still waiting for the contact in AAA you promised me months ago, I still need those DC8 engine fuel igniters knobs... )
Back to our subject :
I am amazed by the first post by Twistedfirefighter who called it "madness"to have his slot cancelled.. Which means he would have rather liked to have the CFMU kept its original CTOT just because it was issued, instead of releasing him once the ATFM restriction that caused his delays was no loonger active ?
ATFM restictions can be put in place for various reasons, capacity is one , but often it is staff shortage ( as explained already) but also equipment failures. Those comes without warning, and when the systems comes back it is also generally sudden. So ACC ( the Centres) lift the restrictions at once, and then the CFMU try to cancel as many CTOT as possible...
Complaining about this may send the wrong signal to CFMU operators my friend....
Incidentally do you prefer to hold en route or in the ground , bearing in mind that if you all hold en route, you will increase the delays for the others on the ground ?
(Now I have to defend the CFMU ! Big change )
(To the Guvnor : Avman is on leave but is not, and by far the only man in Eurocontrol in this Forum.. By the way I am still waiting for the contact in AAA you promised me months ago, I still need those DC8 engine fuel igniters knobs... )
Back to our subject :
I am amazed by the first post by Twistedfirefighter who called it "madness"to have his slot cancelled.. Which means he would have rather liked to have the CFMU kept its original CTOT just because it was issued, instead of releasing him once the ATFM restriction that caused his delays was no loonger active ?
ATFM restictions can be put in place for various reasons, capacity is one , but often it is staff shortage ( as explained already) but also equipment failures. Those comes without warning, and when the systems comes back it is also generally sudden. So ACC ( the Centres) lift the restrictions at once, and then the CFMU try to cancel as many CTOT as possible...
Complaining about this may send the wrong signal to CFMU operators my friend....
Incidentally do you prefer to hold en route or in the ground , bearing in mind that if you all hold en route, you will increase the delays for the others on the ground ?
As somebody mentioned earlier, we continually monitor the effect that any restrictions imposed to protect "our" sector are having. If, due to staff shortage or temporary airspace constraints, we are relying on these slots to even out the traffic flow, we are still mindful of the effect on the users. For example, if the restriction is causing an average 20-30 minutes of delay, then an aircraft picking up 90 minutes will stand out "like a sore thumb". If we are the only restricting sector, and often we aren't, then it is likely that we will attempt to "take an extra one" to prevent some customer being penalised excessively. I thought we were being proactive and helpful. It appears from the tone of this thread that I am just being a nuisance. Perhaps I should let delays just "take their course" without trying to help? Comments please....
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Just gotta say a big 'THANKS' to 10W, 2 six 4, ScottyD, and ATC Watcher, for their replies above - guys it's genuinely helpful in setting out the 'big' picture as to who's doing what, where, and when - one day I'll hopefully have half an idea as to what's going on - till then, please keep it coming ! 
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EOBT 12.00
SLOT 13.17
Pax in the terminal are informed about the atc restriction.
at 11.45 New slot time arrives: 13.09, in any case boarding was planned to begin at 11.50.
At 12.10 all pax - 2 are sitted, and the slot is again changed to 12.32.
in many airports you should be ready to go at slot - 20 min. in this case at 12.12.
you have 2 minutes to find the 2 happy shopper or to unload their bags.
In this case "who removed that slot????", i will shout
hope this helps to some people some other point of view.
SLOT 13.17
Pax in the terminal are informed about the atc restriction.
at 11.45 New slot time arrives: 13.09, in any case boarding was planned to begin at 11.50.
At 12.10 all pax - 2 are sitted, and the slot is again changed to 12.32.
in many airports you should be ready to go at slot - 20 min. in this case at 12.12.
you have 2 minutes to find the 2 happy shopper or to unload their bags.
In this case "who removed that slot????", i will shout
hope this helps to some people some other point of view.
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Twistedfirefighter
I have another suggestion to throw into the pot. So you had that slot on Saturday night at Palma. Well, I happen to know that there were a lot of aircraft headed for Ibiza that night. There was a whopping great thunderstorm over the island and a lot of metal ended up diverting to Palma. Many were stuck for a couple of hours before the storm moved away from the airport and aircraft could get back over there.
This, I would think, could have caused some screw ups with slots. All those aircraft going IBZ-PMI and back again, and then IBZ to the UK, probably on the same routes as the PMI crowd heading back to the UK.
Just a thought.
I have another suggestion to throw into the pot. So you had that slot on Saturday night at Palma. Well, I happen to know that there were a lot of aircraft headed for Ibiza that night. There was a whopping great thunderstorm over the island and a lot of metal ended up diverting to Palma. Many were stuck for a couple of hours before the storm moved away from the airport and aircraft could get back over there.
This, I would think, could have caused some screw ups with slots. All those aircraft going IBZ-PMI and back again, and then IBZ to the UK, probably on the same routes as the PMI crowd heading back to the UK.
Just a thought.
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ATC Watcher, Numpo-Nigit
- Is it absolutely necessary to give a reply which even when is partly informative - contains some stupid personal remark like:
"Which means he would have rather liked to have the CFMU kept its original CTOT just because it was issued, instead of releasing him once the ATFM restriction that caused his delays was no loonger active"
AND
"Perhaps I should let delays just "take their course" without trying to help? Comments please...."
I think I'll let the rest of the pilots here to judge the above.
- Is it absolutely necessary to give a reply which even when is partly informative - contains some stupid personal remark like:
"Which means he would have rather liked to have the CFMU kept its original CTOT just because it was issued, instead of releasing him once the ATFM restriction that caused his delays was no loonger active"
AND
"Perhaps I should let delays just "take their course" without trying to help? Comments please...."
I think I'll let the rest of the pilots here to judge the above.
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fernando
Your CTOT may have come forward because your company has listed your flights as RFI - Ready For Improvement. This means that the flow computer will automatically issue an improved CTOT regardless of whether or not you have had an REA - Ready message, sent.
It is therefore your responsibility to either get all your pax on board in time (difficult when there is so much shopping to be done!) or ask your company not to list you as RFI and wait until you are ready to send the REA.
As others have said, flow measures do sometimes come and go very quickly which can cause problems in knowing whether or not to board pax. Surely it is better to get them rounded up an hour early rather than depart an hour later than you could because you couldn't find them in time? This would also permit airports to remote park you so that the gate is freed up, the tug can be released and you're in pole position should an improvement materialise.
Your CTOT may have come forward because your company has listed your flights as RFI - Ready For Improvement. This means that the flow computer will automatically issue an improved CTOT regardless of whether or not you have had an REA - Ready message, sent.
It is therefore your responsibility to either get all your pax on board in time (difficult when there is so much shopping to be done!) or ask your company not to list you as RFI and wait until you are ready to send the REA.
As others have said, flow measures do sometimes come and go very quickly which can cause problems in knowing whether or not to board pax. Surely it is better to get them rounded up an hour early rather than depart an hour later than you could because you couldn't find them in time? This would also permit airports to remote park you so that the gate is freed up, the tug can be released and you're in pole position should an improvement materialise.
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Cossack beat me to it!
The old Ready (RDY) message has been split into two.
Companies can now send a Ready For Improvement message (RFI), which will improve the slot to no earlier than original EOBT + Airfield taxi time (16 or 20 mins at LHR, depending on departure runway). i.e. it is assumed that pax will be boarded to make the EOBT. I'm led to believe that this is usually automatically done, unless there is some obvious reason not to (tech problems etc etc.)
ATC can send a Ready (REA) message, which can now improve the slot no earlier than the present time + taxi time, even if this will be earlier than the original EOBT.
Gonzo.
The old Ready (RDY) message has been split into two.
Companies can now send a Ready For Improvement message (RFI), which will improve the slot to no earlier than original EOBT + Airfield taxi time (16 or 20 mins at LHR, depending on departure runway). i.e. it is assumed that pax will be boarded to make the EOBT. I'm led to believe that this is usually automatically done, unless there is some obvious reason not to (tech problems etc etc.)
ATC can send a Ready (REA) message, which can now improve the slot no earlier than the present time + taxi time, even if this will be earlier than the original EOBT.
Gonzo.
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In addition, we can, if you are remote parked or on the way out to the hold, reduce the taxi time as well to bring the CTOT that bit closer. This only usually works when you are subject to minimal delay and are perhaps ready early.
Another reason for getting those pax on!
Another reason for getting those pax on!
I am a figment of my own imagination
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While sitting in Athens day befor yesterday waiting for our start clearance after another slot delay I was told by our handling agent that there is a local restriction of 37 movements an hour. Any body heard why, or if this is in fact a kosher statement.
Was kept entertained in the meantime by lady in Speedbird getting an earful from Lady in Ground control about unco-operative behaviour. Very thin lips all round. To be fair I felt that Birdseed had tried to help but somewhere along the line there had been a simple misunderstanding about rolling forward a bit more during/after pushback.
Was kept entertained in the meantime by lady in Speedbird getting an earful from Lady in Ground control about unco-operative behaviour. Very thin lips all round. To be fair I felt that Birdseed had tried to help but somewhere along the line there had been a simple misunderstanding about rolling forward a bit more during/after pushback.
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Yes.
TRS is set at 5 minutes. But there have been numerous occasions when an aircraft has started for one CTOT only to receive another much later one. These we log and ignore.
TIS is set at 10 minutes. This plus our normal 15 minute taxi time gives us a 25 minute period to give us all a chance at meeting a CTOT that is issued.
I wonder how many crews are aware of their company's policy with respect to RFI. This can only be suspended by the company. ATC cannot help here.
TRS is set at 5 minutes. But there have been numerous occasions when an aircraft has started for one CTOT only to receive another much later one. These we log and ignore.
TIS is set at 10 minutes. This plus our normal 15 minute taxi time gives us a 25 minute period to give us all a chance at meeting a CTOT that is issued.
I wonder how many crews are aware of their company's policy with respect to RFI. This can only be suspended by the company. ATC cannot help here.
Twisted
You really must learn to calm down or your blood pressure will cause you to fail your next medical!!!
I really don't see that the remarks made by ATC Watcher or myself were either "stupid" or "personal". We are both struggling to understand how to make constructive use of whatever influence we may have on the slot allocation system.
Taking sentences out of context does nothing to help. My question, addressed hopefully to the wider world of pilots, was to attempt to find a simple rule to guide my attempts at being customer-facing. There seems little point in me "meddling" with the FMU system to bring forward a slot if it causes such anguish to the crew and despatchers on the receiving end as has been described above. I would like some advice as to what is and what isn't a useful intervention, but I see no need to make personal attacks on other contributors.
Once again, comments please....
You really must learn to calm down or your blood pressure will cause you to fail your next medical!!!
I really don't see that the remarks made by ATC Watcher or myself were either "stupid" or "personal". We are both struggling to understand how to make constructive use of whatever influence we may have on the slot allocation system.
Taking sentences out of context does nothing to help. My question, addressed hopefully to the wider world of pilots, was to attempt to find a simple rule to guide my attempts at being customer-facing. There seems little point in me "meddling" with the FMU system to bring forward a slot if it causes such anguish to the crew and despatchers on the receiving end as has been described above. I would like some advice as to what is and what isn't a useful intervention, but I see no need to make personal attacks on other contributors.
Once again, comments please....
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Numpo-Nigit,
How about this - you bring the slots nicely forward and let us worry about being ready for flight. I understand how hard you might be trying, but if you can, then you should.
If we made a bad decision and haven't got our pax in time for a new slot, then someone else will have to have it.
Now there's is a USEFUL "intervention" if there ever was one. Isn't there?
How about this - you bring the slots nicely forward and let us worry about being ready for flight. I understand how hard you might be trying, but if you can, then you should.
If we made a bad decision and haven't got our pax in time for a new slot, then someone else will have to have it.
Now there's is a USEFUL "intervention" if there ever was one. Isn't there?
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In defence of my colleagues in ATC, may I remind those at the pointy end that we are there to get you on your way ASAP.
YOU, "should" have ALL your pax on board ready to go for your ETD. That your CTOT is not the same...ho ho does NOT mean that you can be lax in loading, and YES YES I DO know that "handling agents" can be a pain.
BUT do not anticipate a delay, 'cos you just "might" get one
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
YOU, "should" have ALL your pax on board ready to go for your ETD. That your CTOT is not the same...ho ho does NOT mean that you can be lax in loading, and YES YES I DO know that "handling agents" can be a pain.
BUT do not anticipate a delay, 'cos you just "might" get one
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy