Lufthansa MD-11 Mexico City
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Lufthansa MD-11 Mexico City
Accident: Lufthansa Cargo MD11 at Mexico City on Sep 13th 2009, hard landing
By Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Oct 10th 2009 16:27Z, last updated Saturday, Oct 10th 2009 16:27Z
A Lufthansa Cargo McDonnell Douglas MD-11 freighter, registration D-ALCO performing freight flight GEC-8240 from Dallas Ft. Worth,TX (USA) to Mexico City (Mexico), touched down very hard at Mexico City's runway around 23:10L (Sep 14th 04:10Z). The airplane rolled out safely and taxied to the apron. No injuries occured.
A postflight inspection revealed wrinkles to the fuselage skin and a bent nose gear structure. The airplane is still in Mexico City awaiting decision whether to repair the airplane or write it off.
Metars:
MMMX 140648Z 00000KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3032 RMK 60175 8/47/ HZY
MMMX 140548Z 18003KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3032 RMK SLP098 52016 928 60165 8/47/ HZY
MMMX 140449Z 19005KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3032 RMK 60225 8/46/ HZY
MMMX 140415Z 26004KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3030 RMK 8/96/ HZY RAE11 B-RA
MMMX 140345Z 27003KT 3SM RA BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3030 RMK 60155 8/96/ HZY -TSRAE41 BRA
By Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Oct 10th 2009 16:27Z, last updated Saturday, Oct 10th 2009 16:27Z
A Lufthansa Cargo McDonnell Douglas MD-11 freighter, registration D-ALCO performing freight flight GEC-8240 from Dallas Ft. Worth,TX (USA) to Mexico City (Mexico), touched down very hard at Mexico City's runway around 23:10L (Sep 14th 04:10Z). The airplane rolled out safely and taxied to the apron. No injuries occured.
A postflight inspection revealed wrinkles to the fuselage skin and a bent nose gear structure. The airplane is still in Mexico City awaiting decision whether to repair the airplane or write it off.
Metars:
MMMX 140648Z 00000KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3032 RMK 60175 8/47/ HZY
MMMX 140548Z 18003KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3032 RMK SLP098 52016 928 60165 8/47/ HZY
MMMX 140449Z 19005KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3032 RMK 60225 8/46/ HZY
MMMX 140415Z 26004KT 4SM -RA FEW015 BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3030 RMK 8/96/ HZY RAE11 B-RA
MMMX 140345Z 27003KT 3SM RA BKN020 OVC080 15/14 A3030 RMK 60155 8/96/ HZY -TSRAE41 BRA
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The last time one of these babies was smacked in, some of the drivers rushed in to defend their ship.
I am sure, driven well, it is a fine machine, but it does seem a little intolerant of less than perfect piloting. At least this time, no pilots have been harmed in this proof of aerodynamic concept. . . Phew
Don,t haven,t and probably won,t fly one, but it sounds too stressful in the landing phase for my liking anyhow.
Don,t grill me for my apostrophes below rather than above, I am still line training on my new applemac.
I am sure, driven well, it is a fine machine, but it does seem a little intolerant of less than perfect piloting. At least this time, no pilots have been harmed in this proof of aerodynamic concept. . . Phew
Don,t haven,t and probably won,t fly one, but it sounds too stressful in the landing phase for my liking anyhow.
Don,t grill me for my apostrophes below rather than above, I am still line training on my new applemac.
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Varig Airlines almost lost a bird like that at the same airport during a bounced landing few years ago. I have heard that they spent several months to repair the plane which almost lost the tail...
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You could merge this one with the "pilot skills" thread.
The MD11 is still my favorite, especially due to the by far best cockpit in the industry. It is however a aerodynamic blunder. As long as initially merely DC10 and MD80 pilots started flying it, it was ok. But as the A320 generation started upgrading to the maddog, the problems started. This new generation was never drilled in pitch and power flying, nor on strict attitude and precise short final discipline. The industry fell for the cheap "my grandmother can fly the bird" myth and neglected basic training that can not be brought back later to Nintendo-Jack. Therefore the MD11 might be too difficult handle for todays jockeys.
It reminds me of the early 911 or the first Kawa900, both thrilling machines with plenty of character. They needed an expert hand! Todays offsprings are much easier and safer to operate, but lost all the character and fun. Same goes for todays airliners, sterile but apparently safer. I say apparently because as long as the rams and roms sparkle straight, everything's ok. The moment the electronic donkeys lose it, and by the way just throw the aircraft back at you in any kind of state, then todays pilots seem to be just as lost ......
The MD11 is still my favorite, especially due to the by far best cockpit in the industry. It is however a aerodynamic blunder. As long as initially merely DC10 and MD80 pilots started flying it, it was ok. But as the A320 generation started upgrading to the maddog, the problems started. This new generation was never drilled in pitch and power flying, nor on strict attitude and precise short final discipline. The industry fell for the cheap "my grandmother can fly the bird" myth and neglected basic training that can not be brought back later to Nintendo-Jack. Therefore the MD11 might be too difficult handle for todays jockeys.
It reminds me of the early 911 or the first Kawa900, both thrilling machines with plenty of character. They needed an expert hand! Todays offsprings are much easier and safer to operate, but lost all the character and fun. Same goes for todays airliners, sterile but apparently safer. I say apparently because as long as the rams and roms sparkle straight, everything's ok. The moment the electronic donkeys lose it, and by the way just throw the aircraft back at you in any kind of state, then todays pilots seem to be just as lost ......
Th MD11 always lloked like it was built out of a load of spare aircraft parts left over from building other aircraft to me. The old addage "If it looks right, it flys right" seems to apply to the MD11.
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The MD11 is still my favorite, especially due to the by far best cockpit in the industry. It is however a aerodynamic blunder. As long as initially merely DC10 and MD80 pilots started flying it, it was ok. But as the A320 generation started upgrading to the maddog, the problems started.
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PSJ
You seem to have a problem understanding what others write. So try again:
Logically most of the operators had ex DC10 and MD80 pilots commencing operations of the MD11, that was what ran around at that time. But how many of the ACTUAL pilots still came from those mentioned, and how many from the newer generation like A320? You wouldn't know I guess, but actually the latter is the majority. That's why initially the record was better, deteriorating lately.
I don't know if you ever came close to a MD11 (by your whining I would guess not, but very close to an Airbus), but I have tons of hours on it and have myself experienced the difference of aptitude described above , so it's not just blaming, but more something like reporting. Please accept at least that.
If every time someone points a finger at training or aptitude issues he gets shot down with the branding of him feeling superior, making one self a hero, then we will all shut up with our experience and accept the new shortcomings. But that would be purely stupid.
Don't take it personally, dear PSJ. Some pilots are not as well trained as the older generation due to the constant cost cutting. It's not their fault and not saying they coulnd't be better pilots than I am, even most probably they would. But with less training and less experience you will have a hard time to do so. That argument goes with the new generation of aircraft as well.
The solution would be to eliminate the older one, or to train the newbees on this equippment the way it should be, the way it has been.
You simply can't have it both ways.
GF out
You seem to have a problem understanding what others write. So try again:
Logically most of the operators had ex DC10 and MD80 pilots commencing operations of the MD11, that was what ran around at that time. But how many of the ACTUAL pilots still came from those mentioned, and how many from the newer generation like A320? You wouldn't know I guess, but actually the latter is the majority. That's why initially the record was better, deteriorating lately.
I don't know if you ever came close to a MD11 (by your whining I would guess not, but very close to an Airbus), but I have tons of hours on it and have myself experienced the difference of aptitude described above , so it's not just blaming, but more something like reporting. Please accept at least that.
If every time someone points a finger at training or aptitude issues he gets shot down with the branding of him feeling superior, making one self a hero, then we will all shut up with our experience and accept the new shortcomings. But that would be purely stupid.
Don't take it personally, dear PSJ. Some pilots are not as well trained as the older generation due to the constant cost cutting. It's not their fault and not saying they coulnd't be better pilots than I am, even most probably they would. But with less training and less experience you will have a hard time to do so. That argument goes with the new generation of aircraft as well.
The solution would be to eliminate the older one, or to train the newbees on this equippment the way it should be, the way it has been.
You simply can't have it both ways.
GF out
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Not my favorite plane but, still a great preformance A/C with good navigation, instrumentation and good brakes. Coming strait off the DC-10, it took a bit of time getting used to the LSAS system specially when hand flying the machine. Once you got used to the feel of it, she was still was demanding in the landing stage and especially on the freighters as, the max landing weight is around the 220,000kgs. So, as mentioned on hight elevation airports, speeds tend to be on the hight side. Have to agree it, is a tweaked up DC-10, bigger engines, 2 man cockpit, 6 meters longer, tail tank and a reduced elevator (30% less in comparison to the DC10) but, with same wing bar a few aerodynamic fairings. All in all a nice plane but, you certainly had to be on top of things to fly this bird!!! My take after 5000 hrs+ on this A/C.
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My take after 5000 hrs+ on this A/C.
Clearly, from the knowledgeable comments, a pilots airplane...for pilots who know how to actually fly.
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almost 7000 hrs on MD-11
I agree absolutely with you. (411A)
after 11 years flying MD-11 for SWISSAIR, I noticed also the degrading FLYING capabilities of young pilots !
less training (cost factor), whatever it will cost later !!
kindly
erich
after 11 years flying MD-11 for SWISSAIR, I noticed also the degrading FLYING capabilities of young pilots !
less training (cost factor), whatever it will cost later !!
kindly
erich
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411A. For the first time in over 6 years of PPrune I feel I have to respond to your comments. You really are an archtypical Luddite! I flew for 50 years on over 100 types from Harvard to A320 through Lightnings, VC10s and Lancaster. The button pushing A320 is a most delightful aircraft to handle. The people you refer to, properly trained, are just as good as us oldies ever were. I know, I have many hours training them and I have seen them skillfully taking "fly by wire" aircraft into tiny Greek islands with no aids (thus manually flown visual circuits) smoothly and with obvious enjoyment in a skill well used. Equally, I have seen "old stagers" make the most appalling holickses. At the end of the day there is no substitute for good training and continuity of handling practice. Where I might agree with you is in decrying the creeping tendency for firms to require their crews to use the autopilot 100% of the time. That is certainly a latent hazard.
Modern FBW aircraft have predictable, benign handling characteristics that enhance flight safety and protect fools from themselves. As one who has "been there, seen it, done it" I sincerely suggest that you open your mind and accept that technology moves forward. If it didn't we might still be wrestling 4 engined piston, manually controlled monsters across the oceans.
Modern FBW aircraft have predictable, benign handling characteristics that enhance flight safety and protect fools from themselves. As one who has "been there, seen it, done it" I sincerely suggest that you open your mind and accept that technology moves forward. If it didn't we might still be wrestling 4 engined piston, manually controlled monsters across the oceans.
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So what happens to the poor guys who broke this one.....is it a career breaker, or is it better to break it this way than the last Fedex one and live with the consequences ?
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That's up to the LBA. I could very well be that the pilots are grounded until the investigation is complete. Last I heard about the co-pilot who landed the A320 in HAM is that (s)he still waiting to get her license/permission back to fly. Silent lips from LH on that issue ...
edit
I am not even sure if this plane was piloted by LH or contract pilots. There used to be quite a few contractors over there.
edit
I am not even sure if this plane was piloted by LH or contract pilots. There used to be quite a few contractors over there.
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'Certain' companies are very nasty when it comes to such incidents/accidents, no matter if the flight crew is deemed guilty or not by the authorities and other bodies they're often times a lot better off outside the company...
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GF,
I have not flown the MD-11, I've flown various Boeings and Airbus (FBW and non-FBW) and a couple of other types. I didn't take your training comments personally as I've seen differences in training affect newer pilots as well, although I've seen plenty of what pontiflex speaks of as well. Personally I think the airline I work for places far too much emphasis both in training and culturally on getting fully automated quickly and staying that way as long as possible-even though the manuals don't require us to fly that way. That's pretty much across all fleets and I think it's had a deleterious affect on our hand flying skills across all backgrounds.
My airline does fly the MD-11 though, so I get to ride it a lot and talk to a lot of people who fly it. That is of course no substitute for actually flying it, but I do get annoyed at the number of pilots who make excuses for an airplane that has been involved in an unusual amount of incidents/accidents for the number of airframes produced. The MD-11 pilots are notorious for this. They'll talk about the aerodynamic issues, the difficulties landing it, etc for hours on end, then they'll blame all of the incidents/accidents completely on the crews involved. It reminds me of when I flew 737's and Brasilia's, two airplanes that have had ghosts in their histories as well. People would often make excuses for design flaws/issues in those birds too and blame things completely on the experience/training of the crews.
All that said, that really wasn't the main point I was trying to make in my other post. You put a lot of blame on the 'A320 generation' yet a lot of the airlines that have had the incidents/accidents don't have A320's or anything similar for the accident/incident pilots to be upgrading off of . A great deal of those pilots came out of the type of aircraft you listed or similar 'old school' airplanes.
I have not flown the MD-11, I've flown various Boeings and Airbus (FBW and non-FBW) and a couple of other types. I didn't take your training comments personally as I've seen differences in training affect newer pilots as well, although I've seen plenty of what pontiflex speaks of as well. Personally I think the airline I work for places far too much emphasis both in training and culturally on getting fully automated quickly and staying that way as long as possible-even though the manuals don't require us to fly that way. That's pretty much across all fleets and I think it's had a deleterious affect on our hand flying skills across all backgrounds.
My airline does fly the MD-11 though, so I get to ride it a lot and talk to a lot of people who fly it. That is of course no substitute for actually flying it, but I do get annoyed at the number of pilots who make excuses for an airplane that has been involved in an unusual amount of incidents/accidents for the number of airframes produced. The MD-11 pilots are notorious for this. They'll talk about the aerodynamic issues, the difficulties landing it, etc for hours on end, then they'll blame all of the incidents/accidents completely on the crews involved. It reminds me of when I flew 737's and Brasilia's, two airplanes that have had ghosts in their histories as well. People would often make excuses for design flaws/issues in those birds too and blame things completely on the experience/training of the crews.
All that said, that really wasn't the main point I was trying to make in my other post. You put a lot of blame on the 'A320 generation' yet a lot of the airlines that have had the incidents/accidents don't have A320's or anything similar for the accident/incident pilots to be upgrading off of . A great deal of those pilots came out of the type of aircraft you listed or similar 'old school' airplanes.
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PSJ
Got your point and basically agree.
I should not go so bluntly at the Axxx aircraft, maybe. It is the generation that goes with it, be it AB or B or any other new birds. My criticism is however still directed at Toulouse, as the automation-frenzy evidently came from there. They created the grandmother myth, they sold their aircraft first with the argument of them beeing so safe, you could cut down on the overly expensive pilot issue. The others just followed because the industry bought that crap. Logically, it bolstered the managers bonuses.
We are today picking up the first pieces of this sad evolution and they won't be the last. The MD11, beeing as imperfect as it was, is one of the first to show the effects so dramatically.
We can now ignore it and blame it on the maddog, or we can analyse it, everyone from his corner and convictions, but I hope the conclusion is not more of the grandmother s#!t, but more of the real stuff ...... !
Fill in your favorites for the gaps, but fill in something.
Got your point and basically agree.
I should not go so bluntly at the Axxx aircraft, maybe. It is the generation that goes with it, be it AB or B or any other new birds. My criticism is however still directed at Toulouse, as the automation-frenzy evidently came from there. They created the grandmother myth, they sold their aircraft first with the argument of them beeing so safe, you could cut down on the overly expensive pilot issue. The others just followed because the industry bought that crap. Logically, it bolstered the managers bonuses.
We are today picking up the first pieces of this sad evolution and they won't be the last. The MD11, beeing as imperfect as it was, is one of the first to show the effects so dramatically.
We can now ignore it and blame it on the maddog, or we can analyse it, everyone from his corner and convictions, but I hope the conclusion is not more of the grandmother s#!t, but more of the real stuff ...... !
Fill in your favorites for the gaps, but fill in something.