BA to get 30% rise
Guest
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Calling "The Zombie" , or anyone else that may know:
Sorry to go off message, but since you clearly are familiar with BA Ops Management, could you, or any of yoour colleagues, give us here at BA CitiExpress an idea of what our new boss is like.
T dl F, (and his cohorts A M and G S) have been imposed on us by our new owners - your Board. Obviously, making record profits year on year shows we don't know much about Airline Flying - despite being the most profitable Airline in the Uk last year (in terms of % return on turnover)
So, any comments? Can we expect a gentle re-education, or the dead hand of BA Bureaucratic S.O.P.
What are these guys like to deal with, they were all BA or BA Regional before coming to show us a thing or two? Got any form ?
Listening out.
[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 03 June 2001).]
Sorry to go off message, but since you clearly are familiar with BA Ops Management, could you, or any of yoour colleagues, give us here at BA CitiExpress an idea of what our new boss is like.
T dl F, (and his cohorts A M and G S) have been imposed on us by our new owners - your Board. Obviously, making record profits year on year shows we don't know much about Airline Flying - despite being the most profitable Airline in the Uk last year (in terms of % return on turnover)
So, any comments? Can we expect a gentle re-education, or the dead hand of BA Bureaucratic S.O.P.
What are these guys like to deal with, they were all BA or BA Regional before coming to show us a thing or two? Got any form ?
Listening out.
[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 03 June 2001).]
Guest
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Minogue
Every now & again someone comes out with the chestnut that pay is the big factor in airline costs. Total pay for BA's 60,000+ staff is about 8%, flight crew are 3500 strong. So you could assume that flight crew pay accounts for about 1.2% of total costs. A 30% increase in flight crew pay would therefore bring their pay to 1.3 x 1.2 = 1.56% of costs, a massive increase of 0.36% in BA's costs. Management cock-ups have recently accounted for losses of several orders of magnitude greater than this.
If this argument or mathematics is too complicated for you, you are in the wrong forum.
THEY CAN AFFORD MASSIVE PAY RISES FOR PILOTS. They will say anything to brainwash us out of them.
Every now & again someone comes out with the chestnut that pay is the big factor in airline costs. Total pay for BA's 60,000+ staff is about 8%, flight crew are 3500 strong. So you could assume that flight crew pay accounts for about 1.2% of total costs. A 30% increase in flight crew pay would therefore bring their pay to 1.3 x 1.2 = 1.56% of costs, a massive increase of 0.36% in BA's costs. Management cock-ups have recently accounted for losses of several orders of magnitude greater than this.
If this argument or mathematics is too complicated for you, you are in the wrong forum.
THEY CAN AFFORD MASSIVE PAY RISES FOR PILOTS. They will say anything to brainwash us out of them.
Guest
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Good luck to ANY pilot that gets a pay increase.
Do you know of any other profession where your job is put on the line every 6 months? (simulator check).
I endevour to maintain the high standards required. I HAVE YET TO BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY..........
Do you know of any other profession where your job is put on the line every 6 months? (simulator check).
I endevour to maintain the high standards required. I HAVE YET TO BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY..........
Guest
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Overstress
BA last full year proftit - c £130m
On your figures there are 3500 Fcrew. Average salary I would guess would be a minimum of £60,000. 30% rise would be £18,000 equivalent to well over £20k once you factor in NI/ pension etc. But let's use
£20k to keep it simple.
£20k per person over 3500 people is £70m
over half last years profit. Unaffordable I'm afraid without cuts elsewhere.
Hope the maths isnt to difficult for you!!
Guest
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Minogue,
What a lot of people are failing to realise here is that over the next few years BA are going to lose a lot of well paid Captains.(Pay Point 20 and above). To compensate for this retirement F/O's will be promoted. Hypothetically let's say these would be Captain's enter on pay point 10, let's say the difference in basic between the retiree and new guy is £25K. Apparently BA are losing 200 pilot's a year due retirements so are actually saving £5m a year in salary costs. Can't afford it. I don't think so.
What a lot of people are failing to realise here is that over the next few years BA are going to lose a lot of well paid Captains.(Pay Point 20 and above). To compensate for this retirement F/O's will be promoted. Hypothetically let's say these would be Captain's enter on pay point 10, let's say the difference in basic between the retiree and new guy is £25K. Apparently BA are losing 200 pilot's a year due retirements so are actually saving £5m a year in salary costs. Can't afford it. I don't think so.
Guest
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Minogue,
Your assumption of our average wage is pretty wide of the mark.
Including allowances our pay may average 60K (I got just over 40K last year including allowances - before tax). However, what many people forget is that our allowances are there to cover expenses we occur whilst we are away from home at the companys behest. The money has already been spent on food (and incidentals - hic) before we get reimbursed by the company. Our pensionable salary - I suggest - averages at about 40K, far less than both you and the media would have everyone believe. Of course this may not make great headlines - and so the facts get buried under hype.
You say that cuts would have to be made elsewhere; fine - for a long time now most people have realised that BA is overstaffed. Swingeing staff cuts - however unpaletable for those involved - have been a real necessity for some time now. I'm sure Rod is sharpening his axe as we speak.
ATB,
Underdog
Your assumption of our average wage is pretty wide of the mark.
Including allowances our pay may average 60K (I got just over 40K last year including allowances - before tax). However, what many people forget is that our allowances are there to cover expenses we occur whilst we are away from home at the companys behest. The money has already been spent on food (and incidentals - hic) before we get reimbursed by the company. Our pensionable salary - I suggest - averages at about 40K, far less than both you and the media would have everyone believe. Of course this may not make great headlines - and so the facts get buried under hype.You say that cuts would have to be made elsewhere; fine - for a long time now most people have realised that BA is overstaffed. Swingeing staff cuts - however unpaletable for those involved - have been a real necessity for some time now. I'm sure Rod is sharpening his axe as we speak.
ATB,
UnderdogGuest
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I agree, why should it be the underpaid pilots that subsidise the Waterworld hoards.
Another point: The govt. are supposedly in favour of the use of public transport. Why then do they continue to impose the passenger taxes on airline flights. Certainly domestically the airlines compete with the railways, and I'm sure they would'nt get away with such a tax on railway passengers. If the airlines kept the fares at present levels, it would mean that at last they could make more sensible profits, and the increases which pilots are due could be paid with a small fraction of what was taken in these taxes.
Another point: The govt. are supposedly in favour of the use of public transport. Why then do they continue to impose the passenger taxes on airline flights. Certainly domestically the airlines compete with the railways, and I'm sure they would'nt get away with such a tax on railway passengers. If the airlines kept the fares at present levels, it would mean that at last they could make more sensible profits, and the increases which pilots are due could be paid with a small fraction of what was taken in these taxes.
Guest
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If you look at the basic money paid to the likes of GORYEZY and compare it with their seat prices and profitability (and keep this in context with B.A.s own profitability), I think it proves that the exesses within B.A. are not on the flight deck.
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The humble line pilot, having covered its back so often, at last made the first step on the evolutionary ladder that was to eventually become... a tortoise!
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The humble line pilot, having covered its back so often, at last made the first step on the evolutionary ladder that was to eventually become... a tortoise!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, for once, I'm feeling extremely militant. I'm actually looking forward to going on strike and sticking the bat as far as I can up our management's proverbrial.
There should be no negotiation. It's either what we want or try operating an airline with no pilots.
It may even kill two birds with one stone. We get our pay rise and get rid of the prat who's just about to take over as DFO (the sooner that happens the better).
Pontius
PS: This is the original name holder; not Pontius P
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You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!
There should be no negotiation. It's either what we want or try operating an airline with no pilots.
It may even kill two birds with one stone. We get our pay rise and get rid of the prat who's just about to take over as DFO (the sooner that happens the better).
Pontius
PS: This is the original name holder; not Pontius P
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You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!
Guest
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One thing amazes me about the aviation industry generally (not being employed in it) and that's, generally speaking, how p*ss poor the pay is for the work, training and responsibilities undertaken - at all levels, flying, maintenance and ground staff. I don't know about bean counters, though.
Once or twice I've considered trying to use my skills (radio engineering) in aviation, but I'm not cutting my pay by 60%! Consider that a new graduate in electronics can be getting £18k six months after graduation.....
Once or twice I've considered trying to use my skills (radio engineering) in aviation, but I'm not cutting my pay by 60%! Consider that a new graduate in electronics can be getting £18k six months after graduation.....
Guest
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What the readers of these pages need to understand is the MASSIVE increase in productivity that we have delivered over the past 5 years for a rapidly diminishing and derisory award, whilst there is a continuous erosion of our conditions of service. My personal flying hours as an example have increased 18% since 1995 and many of us are approaching the magic 900.
BA management myth that somehow we are inefficient and lazy is simply not borne out by the facts. The recent BALPA comparative remuneration study shows with independent and sourced evidence that we provide just about the most productive and cost effective flight deck in the business. I can hear some of you now in the charter world going ‘Oh dear, poor Nigel having to work for a change’, but let me remind you that your work is strictly seasonal, whilst ours is month on month, higher and higher CAPs, shorter slips, and more establishment shortfalls.
All we want is a fair days pay for a fair days work, we have helped the company out in the past when they pleaded hardship, only for them to play hard nose when the Sun comes out again. They must think we were born yesterday. So this time no sob stories, no 3%, no corporate offer, no recession, no IT problems, no Foot and Mouth, this time it’s money.
MJ is reported as saying ”Don’t expect anything more than RPI”
Well if that’s the case, I have news for him – Don’t expect anything less than industrial action!
BA management myth that somehow we are inefficient and lazy is simply not borne out by the facts. The recent BALPA comparative remuneration study shows with independent and sourced evidence that we provide just about the most productive and cost effective flight deck in the business. I can hear some of you now in the charter world going ‘Oh dear, poor Nigel having to work for a change’, but let me remind you that your work is strictly seasonal, whilst ours is month on month, higher and higher CAPs, shorter slips, and more establishment shortfalls.
All we want is a fair days pay for a fair days work, we have helped the company out in the past when they pleaded hardship, only for them to play hard nose when the Sun comes out again. They must think we were born yesterday. So this time no sob stories, no 3%, no corporate offer, no recession, no IT problems, no Foot and Mouth, this time it’s money.
MJ is reported as saying ”Don’t expect anything more than RPI”
Well if that’s the case, I have news for him – Don’t expect anything less than industrial action!
Guest
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Roobarb,
Spot on. Whilst the charter companies get their pound of flesh during the summer months, BA certainly get their moneys worth from us and more besides - year round. And yes I have done both!
Whilst roster stability etc. is pretty good, the rewards are abysmal. Until BA recognises our true worth then the threat of industrial action cannot be ignored.
ATB,
Underdog
Spot on. Whilst the charter companies get their pound of flesh during the summer months, BA certainly get their moneys worth from us and more besides - year round. And yes I have done both!
Whilst roster stability etc. is pretty good, the rewards are abysmal. Until BA recognises our true worth then the threat of industrial action cannot be ignored.
ATB,
UnderdogGuest
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Roobarb,
Your sumary of the situation is absolutely spot on.I too am hitting the 8-900 hr mark his year,and for less pay.I am fully prepared for Industrial action.I have quite simply had enough.I am not personally prepared to give any more ground on any issue.30% in my view is too modest.
jumbodriver
Your sumary of the situation is absolutely spot on.I too am hitting the 8-900 hr mark his year,and for less pay.I am fully prepared for Industrial action.I have quite simply had enough.I am not personally prepared to give any more ground on any issue.30% in my view is too modest.
jumbodriver
Guest
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To those of you who would say that we are overpaid, well you remain free to donate as much of your salaries to charity as you wish. Now 12 years ago, I chose, yes chose BA from a range of pretty attractive world ranking airlines. OK, the pay was a little bit less, but the route structure and leisurely nature of many of the trips made up for it. Well, now the pay is a hell of a lot less, and the trips are all there and backs, and I am flying 900 hours a year. If I were at United or Delta, I would be making 70% more. At American or Northwest, it would be 50% more. At other carriers, I would have a command by now and be paid much more. What would be the point of going to EOG for a command on a 737 when it comes with lousy pay and an equally lousy contract? The situation is so laughable that this year, we must do something decisive. Chris Darke ignores our feelings at his peril.
Guest
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There seems to be a groundswell of opinion across the UK airlines that we are not getting our fair share. Plebs like us grind on whilst those further up the food chain whittle on about RPI and greedy pilots whilst they pocket obscene bonuses.
We are conservative with a small "c" but at what point has it gone too far. We create the wealth that they manipulate. It appears that there is an ever increasing number of us in the UK who are being pushed too close to the edge. Union membership is not just about being non confrontational whatever the cost - if that was the case I'd save 1% of my salary! It's time that we reminded some of these people that we're not here for our health!
We are conservative with a small "c" but at what point has it gone too far. We create the wealth that they manipulate. It appears that there is an ever increasing number of us in the UK who are being pushed too close to the edge. Union membership is not just about being non confrontational whatever the cost - if that was the case I'd save 1% of my salary! It's time that we reminded some of these people that we're not here for our health!
Guest
Posts: n/a
If there is a strike over the BA pay deal, then there will be the biggest and most brutal intimidation of the membership ever seen. The aim will be to smash BALPA as a negotiating body within the UK airline industry. Any readers of the "Friday Firelighter"this week ,(that august and esteemed company propaganda sheet), will have seen the early shots in the building PR campaign that harps on the usual theme that we are already overpaid and can only look forward to an ever rising round of "efficiency improvements" at our expense.
Be prepared: BA surely are getting their ducks in a row.
Be prepared: BA surely are getting their ducks in a row.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Interesting to read the support for Industrial action this time round. I sent a fairly "brisk" email to BALPA saying that they really need to pull their finger out this time.
For those of you not in BA yet I also brought up the point that self improvers joining the company are being forced onto the cadet entry pay rates starting on £23K/yr instead of the £32K they should have as DEP's. All this AND a £45K loan to pay back....
It's these sort of abuses that make the likes of myself (7yr SFO) militant to the extent that we WILL go out on strike this year if the company don't start recognising our contribution.
For those of you not in BA yet I also brought up the point that self improvers joining the company are being forced onto the cadet entry pay rates starting on £23K/yr instead of the £32K they should have as DEP's. All this AND a £45K loan to pay back....
It's these sort of abuses that make the likes of myself (7yr SFO) militant to the extent that we WILL go out on strike this year if the company don't start recognising our contribution.
Guest
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Skyjack,
you´re absolutely spot on. I joined BA a couple of years ago on 23K (cadet pay), whereas i actually financed my own training at OATS ~ 45-50K. BALPA are actually trying to get the company to recognise this but i don´t think i´ll hold my breath.
BA really need to get their finger out this year and give us what we deserve.
Lets hope LCG starts his new job by trying to increase morale!!!
[This message has been edited by 3Greens (edited 08 June 2001).]
you´re absolutely spot on. I joined BA a couple of years ago on 23K (cadet pay), whereas i actually financed my own training at OATS ~ 45-50K. BALPA are actually trying to get the company to recognise this but i don´t think i´ll hold my breath.
BA really need to get their finger out this year and give us what we deserve.
Lets hope LCG starts his new job by trying to increase morale!!!
[This message has been edited by 3Greens (edited 08 June 2001).]