BA to get 30% rise
Guest
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L337....turned down??!! You have gotta be jokin'.
Why don't you whingers chuck it in at BA and come to FR and earn that 30% pay rise.
Exeng...just cause you're 'gone public' in BA don't think that means you have any credit with me regarding your 'free market credentials'. It takes more than that sonny.
Why don't you whingers chuck it in at BA and come to FR and earn that 30% pay rise.
Exeng...just cause you're 'gone public' in BA don't think that means you have any credit with me regarding your 'free market credentials'. It takes more than that sonny.
Guest
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If he was'nt turned down I can only think it's because he did'nt apply.
On a more serious note, BA pilots do deserve the quoted 30% rise, at least. They have tolerated small rises for years and these savings to BA have been squandered by mis- management. They now lag behind the world and have some catching up to do.
FR and the others will eventually follow. If the BA pilots are successful the market rate in the UK in general will rise.
On a more serious note, BA pilots do deserve the quoted 30% rise, at least. They have tolerated small rises for years and these savings to BA have been squandered by mis- management. They now lag behind the world and have some catching up to do.
FR and the others will eventually follow. If the BA pilots are successful the market rate in the UK in general will rise.
Guest
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JPJ, you are an idiot!
What other jobs do you know of where many people have spent between £20,000 to £60,000 to get qualified, then spent years trying to get a job with an airline whilst earning a pittance instructing.
I know that we all have a choice, but we deserve what we get paid, not least becuase we have a lot of responsibilty, work sh1jty hours, social life suffers and we put in A LOT of hard work to get here.
What other jobs do you know of where many people have spent between £20,000 to £60,000 to get qualified, then spent years trying to get a job with an airline whilst earning a pittance instructing.
I know that we all have a choice, but we deserve what we get paid, not least becuase we have a lot of responsibilty, work sh1jty hours, social life suffers and we put in A LOT of hard work to get here.
Guest
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Look, you signed a contract when you joined your company which almost certainly stipulates how much you will be paid and by how much that will be increased.
As long as your employer has played a straight game with you, you're not entitled to change the rules in mid-channel.
Demanding huge pay increases in the middle of a recession is also a great way of finding out what the inside of a dole office looks like!
As long as your employer has played a straight game with you, you're not entitled to change the rules in mid-channel.
Demanding huge pay increases in the middle of a recession is also a great way of finding out what the inside of a dole office looks like!
Guest
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Guvnor states "you're not entitled to change the rules in mid-channel". I wonder what he makes of Lufthansa mgt reducing pay by 30% and simultaneously making promises to reinstate it when the airline enters profit.
[This message has been edited by knows (edited 31 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by knows (edited 31 May 2001).]
Guest
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Why does any mention of airline pilot remuneration bring all the non-involved idiots like Guvnor and LPJ out of the woodwork feeling they have to make an input into something that is not of any concern to them. I remind all- this is a Professional Pilots Network for PROFESSIONAL PILOTS.....Gerrit. Other opinions may be relevant, but if it becomes an area for non aviation persons to attack professional pilots, then their input is not welcome and professional pilots will increasingly retreat to their private areas!
Guest
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Anyone see the Daily Mail a couple of days ago and their report on solicitors salaries in London? Apparently on completion of two years training (during which they are paid substantially more than your average CAP509er) starting salaries in the city are circa £80k, and starting salaries in regular high street solicitors have risen by 30% in recently to around £35K. Where's the outcry over these salaries? Why aren't they 'overpaid and underworked'? At least your average pilot doesn't start a stopwatch every time he answers the phone then charge by the minute!
Guest
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Knows - if done unilaterally, without consultation and agreement, it's ethically as wrong as what the VC are doing at the moment. When a company has financial problems, it's normal for it to ask its staff to take paycuts - in preference to layoffs - but then that lost pay needs to be restored in full.
Carnage Matey - solicitors (at least top commercial ones) and especially barristers undergo considerably more training - and are, quite frankly, considerably more skilled, than your average pilot.
Incidentally, I understand that Inland Revenue classifies pilots as 'semi-skilled'!!
Carnage Matey - solicitors (at least top commercial ones) and especially barristers undergo considerably more training - and are, quite frankly, considerably more skilled, than your average pilot.
Incidentally, I understand that Inland Revenue classifies pilots as 'semi-skilled'!!
Guest
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xsimba I have no reason to defend BALPA. However, what lever do you think BALPA has for forcing a company to do anything? The only "muscle" the Union has is when members are prepared to take industrial action. The fact is, that members seldom take industrial action. Will someone please tell me how the Union is supposed to achieve anything without support from the membership?
Guest
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Before everyone gets too excited over solicitors' pay (I am not one, but I do know a bit about it) the huge figures quoted in the Press apply to a tiny number of City firms. In reality, plenty of High Street solicitors are pushed to make more than £30k or so. A newly qualified City solicitor will start on about £40-45k, and the senior ones make loads, but the big firms only take on people with a 2:1 or better from a decent university, who have passed a demanding selection process. The Crown Prosecution Service, for example, offers in the low £20ks for someone who must have done a degree then a postgrad course then two years' training before qualifying.
The grass is always greener!
[This message has been edited by JPJ (edited 31 May 2001).]
The grass is always greener!
[This message has been edited by JPJ (edited 31 May 2001).]
Guest
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Pontius P - you are quite right, the members do have the final say and need to make it quite clear to their council exactly what they expect.
The problem we had in Virgin was Balpa 'commending' an offer to us. While some of us actually examined the offer and decided to reject it on the basis of being inadequate, too many people just took the council's 'commendation' at face value and voted yes.
The council were left in no doubt before serious negotiations began that we were all pretty unhappy and that there was a groundswell of support for hard bargaining. The council, it appears got too cosy with the management and folded after the first serious round of negotiating. Had the company council not 'commended' the offer and mereley left people to make up their own minds, I suspect the vote may have been different to the 51% to accept, 49% to reject. We are sometimes our own worst enemy!
The problem we had in Virgin was Balpa 'commending' an offer to us. While some of us actually examined the offer and decided to reject it on the basis of being inadequate, too many people just took the council's 'commendation' at face value and voted yes.
The council were left in no doubt before serious negotiations began that we were all pretty unhappy and that there was a groundswell of support for hard bargaining. The council, it appears got too cosy with the management and folded after the first serious round of negotiating. Had the company council not 'commended' the offer and mereley left people to make up their own minds, I suspect the vote may have been different to the 51% to accept, 49% to reject. We are sometimes our own worst enemy!
Guest
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As I have said in other postings, I'm not a pilot. Many of you appear to think therefore that I have no place posting here. Those who feel this way, please pass on to the next poster.
I make no comment on what a captain should or should not earn. A few points worthy of consideration though are
1) BA profitibility, although better, is still c..p particularly during a booming economy. BA has to make an adequate long term return to its shareholders to continue to exist. It is clear there is no easy fat waiting to be distributed to flight crew.
2) Flight crew costs represent a significant part of BA cost base. Anything like a 30% increase in pay would require BA management to take drastic action to repair this impact on the bottom line. In reality there are two main possibilities
a) Cut costs in other areas. Given that customer service in a cutthroat industry is sacrisanct, this in practise means other staff groups will need to be paid less or jobs in these areas cut
or b) routes that were profitable under old cost base will be unprofitable after the salary hike and will be cut. Less flying means less jobs for all staff groups ... including flight crew.
Some of you may care about this, others may not. Your choice.
Guest
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I think that the proportion of costs attributable to flight crew is generally overestimated. I don't have any specific figures, but I think it's less than 5% of total costs for the large aircraft as operated by BA.
30% of 5% is less than 2%, and this increase in opereating costs is hardly going to have the dire consequences predicted by some posters here.
If the pay is'nt right, the industry will in the long term not attract the right calibre of people. I think that most passengers would gladly pay an extra 2% to have the right calibre of people at the sharp end.
30% of 5% is less than 2%, and this increase in opereating costs is hardly going to have the dire consequences predicted by some posters here.
If the pay is'nt right, the industry will in the long term not attract the right calibre of people. I think that most passengers would gladly pay an extra 2% to have the right calibre of people at the sharp end.
Guest
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Well, well! I have stirred up a hornets nest.
I dunno, go to India for a quick curry and look what happens whilst I'm away!
Plenty of vitriol going around. Anyway, just to respond to a couple of points....
The guvnor :- it's obvious you don't work for BA otherwise you'd know just how arrogant the company is - as someone else pointed out. I signed a letter of acceptance for the job, part of which said that I agreed to their terms and conditions of their offer of employment. The only way to see these terms and conditions was to go to Meadowbank and look them up - they were never sent to people. Whilst it may be true that basic information such as starting salary may have been quoted, the full picture of what we were letting ourselves in for only started to appear once we were on line and others warned us of the many pitfalls of working for BA. Details such as being able to be moved at the companies behest to any fleet in the 1st 5 years - and so on. Many people joined BA thinking the grass was greener - and BA notably encouraged that view, and still does - only to find it was a different shade of brown!
To the guy who suggested I join FR and 'earn' my money.
What makes you think that you 'earn' your money and we don't 'earn' ours? You obviously haven't got a clue what LH flying (or SH for that matter) in BA is about or you wouldn't make such stupid comments. I don't attack your work at FR, probably because I know a few people there (or ex-there) and appreciate your work albeit markedly different to ours. Just because our job is different from yours doesn't devalue it in any way.
To anyone who thinks I was looking for sympathy - I wasn't, I was merely stating the facts. I can't disguise the fact that I may be a little p!ssed off with my lack of financial progress during my career, but there you go.
Anyway, talking to some colleagues earlier today it seems they are of the same mind and want to see a dramatic increase in our pay. Having said that, they have as much faith in Balpa as the Virgin guys.
Tin hat back on.
Underdog
I dunno, go to India for a quick curry and look what happens whilst I'm away!
Plenty of vitriol going around. Anyway, just to respond to a couple of points....
The guvnor :- it's obvious you don't work for BA otherwise you'd know just how arrogant the company is - as someone else pointed out. I signed a letter of acceptance for the job, part of which said that I agreed to their terms and conditions of their offer of employment. The only way to see these terms and conditions was to go to Meadowbank and look them up - they were never sent to people. Whilst it may be true that basic information such as starting salary may have been quoted, the full picture of what we were letting ourselves in for only started to appear once we were on line and others warned us of the many pitfalls of working for BA. Details such as being able to be moved at the companies behest to any fleet in the 1st 5 years - and so on. Many people joined BA thinking the grass was greener - and BA notably encouraged that view, and still does - only to find it was a different shade of brown!
To the guy who suggested I join FR and 'earn' my money.
What makes you think that you 'earn' your money and we don't 'earn' ours? You obviously haven't got a clue what LH flying (or SH for that matter) in BA is about or you wouldn't make such stupid comments. I don't attack your work at FR, probably because I know a few people there (or ex-there) and appreciate your work albeit markedly different to ours. Just because our job is different from yours doesn't devalue it in any way.To anyone who thinks I was looking for sympathy - I wasn't, I was merely stating the facts. I can't disguise the fact that I may be a little p!ssed off with my lack of financial progress during my career, but there you go.
Anyway, talking to some colleagues earlier today it seems they are of the same mind and want to see a dramatic increase in our pay. Having said that, they have as much faith in Balpa as the Virgin guys.
Tin hat back on.
UnderdogGuest
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Time to all pull together and let the idiots at BA Flight Ops Management know how we feel.
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Only one (DB), out of all the senior managers at BA Flt Ops, has any respect from the pilots. All the rest are hated with no respect or trust (LCG/PD/TS/SS etc.).
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CD at BALPA also has an up hill task as he is up for re-election and support is reducing for him !
Just my observations over the last few weeks.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.........
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Only one (DB), out of all the senior managers at BA Flt Ops, has any respect from the pilots. All the rest are hated with no respect or trust (LCG/PD/TS/SS etc.).
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CD at BALPA also has an up hill task as he is up for re-election and support is reducing for him !
Just my observations over the last few weeks.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.........
Guest
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You guys seem to be have a pretty good unity going for you, I'm sure you will get your 30% raise. NOT!!!
Also I thought one poster was talking about CX when I read..... >>>>BA has a very arrogant attitude, they think they are better than everybody else, think pilots are queing up to join them, think they pay above average ......<<<<<
Good luck, and also,please don't bring down the new standard set by UA, DL and also soon, AA. Just keep up the good work, like Luftwaffe, and don't try to be like Qantas...
Also I thought one poster was talking about CX when I read..... >>>>BA has a very arrogant attitude, they think they are better than everybody else, think pilots are queing up to join them, think they pay above average ......<<<<<
Good luck, and also,please don't bring down the new standard set by UA, DL and also soon, AA. Just keep up the good work, like Luftwaffe, and don't try to be like Qantas...
Guest
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Guvnor.........
When you say that it is not unreasonable for an airline to ask for pay cuts when they are in financial problems.......what do you say about CX management cutting salaries by over 30% in the last few years when they are making record profits???????????
When you say that it is not unreasonable for an airline to ask for pay cuts when they are in financial problems.......what do you say about CX management cutting salaries by over 30% in the last few years when they are making record profits???????????
Guest
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I hear that BA pilots still make a contribution to the corporate purse of 4.5% each year.
Apparantly at the time of the Gulf War morale was so high the lads and lasses of Big Airways took pity on their highly regarded management and gave them part of their annual pay rise back!! The deal was, I am told, that when times got better the contribution made would be reinstated.
Despite profit share, dividends etc. doesn't look like times are good enough to give the boys and girls their pay increase of ten years ago?
Apparantly at the time of the Gulf War morale was so high the lads and lasses of Big Airways took pity on their highly regarded management and gave them part of their annual pay rise back!! The deal was, I am told, that when times got better the contribution made would be reinstated.
Despite profit share, dividends etc. doesn't look like times are good enough to give the boys and girls their pay increase of ten years ago?