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Air France A330-200 missing

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Air France A330-200 missing

Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:39
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Am I the only one having trouble believing that "report" from The Age?

According to my reckoning, it would mean the "witnesses" were able to see not only a "white light" but 6 distinct objects falling at a distance in excess of 2000km when, by other things said, the AF craft was in the middle of a very big cloud.....

That's some eyesight...


(Added.. Translation of the El Mundo report says the co-pilot saw a "white flash" which then descended and faded after 6 seconds, not something that broke up into 6 segments. That could be a lot of things, and shows how pee-poor reporting can make people go "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED!!". Don't believe everything in the press)
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:42
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According to my reckoning, it would mean the "witnesses" were able to see not only a "white light" but 6 distinct objects falling at a distance in excess of 2000km when, by other things said, the AF craft was in the middle of a very big cloud.....
Who said 2000 Km?

Iberia was flying behind the AF

Cheers
Martin
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:44
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Brazilian AF update

04/06/2009 - 10h08 (Brasilia time=15h08 GMT)


Air Command announced that during the searches conducted in the early hours of today (04/06), an R-99 aircraft of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) has identified new items of debris near the cliffs south of St Peter and St Paul.


During the night, five other military aircraft took off from Natal-RN into the search area (three FAB C-130 Hercules, one USAF P-3 Orion and one French Falcon 50).

For the first time during the operation, a H-60 Black Hawk helicopter, based in Fernando de Noronha (PE), takes part in the search missions 110km northeast of the archipelago.

Besides the visual exploration of the area in which new debris has been detected, the aircraft involved will coordinate the direction of two Brazilian Navy vessels that are in the area to retrieve debris.

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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:49
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"la sobrecargo"
That is spanish slang for a female flight attendant.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:50
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It has been suggested that an iced up pitot/static probe could have caused erronious values being sent to the ADIRU's.

Couldn't a lightening strike have damaged a probe, causeing similar problems?
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:50
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Previous A330 event

ATSB TRANSPORT SAFETY REPORT
Aviation Occurrence Investigation AO-2008-070
Preliminary
In-flight upset
154 km west of Learmonth, WA
7 October 2008
VH-QPA
Airbus A330-303

I have this doc in PDF format but don't know how to get it to you.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:52
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Who said 2000 Km?

Iberia was flying behind the AF

Cheers
Martin
Positions stated in the "report" (7°N 49°W for Air Comet, 0°N 30°W for AF) plotted on Google Earth gives you a separation of around 2112km with the AF at around 96° to the right of the AC position.

Check it yourself if you don't believe me. And, after all, I can't see anyone leaving Lima and being able to be on the same heading as the AF craft which had left Rio.....
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:53
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Originally Posted by FRACharley
ATSB TRANSPORT SAFETY REPORT
Aviation Occurrence Investigation AO-2008-070
Preliminary
In-flight upset
154 km west of Learmonth, WA
7 October 2008
VH-QPA
Airbus A330-303

I have this doc in PDF format but don't know how to get it to you.
Try here: http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...070_prelim.pdf
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 15:59
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El Mundo Air Comet

Un piloto dice que vio caer un 'destello de luz blanca' donde desapareció el avión francés | Mundo | elmundo.es:

"Air Comet estaba a siete grados al norte del ecuador y en el meridiano 49 oeste."

This is 7N 49W.

According to Tim Vasquez http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ the estimated crash site is near 3.290N, 30.357W
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:03
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BEA denies advisory notice "today"

The French investigation bureau BEA has denied any forthcoming publication, as announced in Le Monde, of a recommendation to A330 operators and crew on the aircraft speed handling during turbulence. "It is not a matter for today", denied a BEA spokesperson. "The BEA has announced that it intends to communicate regularly and not to delay publication of information that the investigation team has validated" but today "there is no information", the spokesperson said.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:05
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Who said 2000 Km? Iberia was flying behind the AF
There are two reports from Spanish pilots being discussed, hence the confusion.

One is from the pilot of an Air Comet flight from Lima to Lisbon, quoted in The Age, who claims to have seen "an intense flash of white light" in the area where Air France Flight 447 was lost. This is the one whose distance from AF447's position is being questioned.

The other is from the pilot of an Iberia flight from Rio to Madrid that departed just after AF447, quoted from a personal e-mail of unknown provenance. This flight was obviously much closer, though the pilot mentions deviating quite a bit to avoid the cbs. This pilot reported a lot of calls to AF447 once he was on Dakar's frequency after passing TASIL.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:11
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Originally Posted by el_visigodo
Un piloto dice que vio caer un 'destello de luz blanca' donde desapareció el avión francés | Mundo | elmundo.es:

"Air Comet estaba a siete grados al norte del ecuador y en el meridiano 49 oeste."

This is 7N 49W.

According to Tim Vasquez Air France 447 - AFR447 - A detailed meteorological analysis - Satellite and weather data the estimated crash site is near 3.290N, 30.357W
This is what the relative positions would look like.

Great Circle Mapper




LIM (12°01'19"S 77°06'52"W) 07°00'00"N 49°00'00"W 2028 nm
07°00'00"N 49°00'00"W LIS (38°46'53"N 09°08'09"W) 2875 nm

RIO (22°54'S 43°14'W) CDG (49°00'35"N 02°32'52"E) 4950 nm

07°00'00"N 49°00'00"W 03°17'24"N 30°24'00"W 100° 1135 nm

That is too far to see anything other than a metor. (probably was a very big exploding meteor)
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:13
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Thanks. Thats explains it.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:17
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The Brazilian Minister of Defence suggests this would tend to rule out a bomb.



Kerosene slick, photo by Força Aérea Brasileira.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:23
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Dutch Bru wrote:

BEA denies advisory notice "today"
The French investigation bureau BEA has denied any forthcoming publication, as announced in Le Monde, of a recommendation to A330 operators and crew on the aircraft speed handling during turbulence.
These "chinese whispers" are getting worse! Here on PPruNe someone quotes The Times as saying investigators are concerned with AF 447's speed. The Times doesn't actually say that, but gives as its source for a similar story the French newspaper Le Monde. Reuters run the same story, with the same reference to Le Monde. Le Monde doesn't source the story to "investigators" either, but gives as its source the Brazilian "serious newspaper" 'Estado de Sao'. But the Estado de Sao Paulo doesn't give any "investigators" as a source either. Indeed, the Estado story is datelined Paris and *gives Le Monde* as its source for the "investigators" and "speed" story!


Last edited by Gary Brown; 4th Jun 2009 at 16:42.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:46
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selfin #914

With respect, and no wish to even bring up the possibility, I would point out that TWA 800 experienced an "explosion" at ~15,000 feet, with a full load of fuel (except for the Center tank). The debris field included massive amounts of jet fuel and many fires on the Ocean's surface. While it wasn't a "device", I would suggest that even a small explosion (of any kind) at the altitude and environment 447 found itself may have opened the Belly, produced the "debris field", and while not "catastrophic", it could have caused an upset in aerodynamic integrity, and a loss of control.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:55
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KRviator:
The aircraft involved in the QF72 incident is VH-QPA, MSN 0553, according to the preliminary accident report.

Also from the ATSB report, the ADIRU's fitted to the aircraft at the time were as follows:
Model name: LTN-101 Global Navigation Air Data Inertial Reference Unit (GNADIRU).
Part Number: 465020-0303-0316.
ADIRU 1 Serial Number 4167
ADIRU 2 Serial Number 4687
ADIRU 3 Serial Number 4663.
Thanks KRviator. Then it does not seem to have changed since then, Part Number still being identical today (April 09), alternate P/N is -0315. Vendor is Northrop Grumman for both.

Unfortunately, the Maintenance Manuals (AMM, IPC, etc.) for A330 MSN550 went offline in the meantime, but for the other recent A330 of AF, MSN 501-510 are fitted with ADIRU by Vendor Honeywell (two different P/N possible). So I expect this to be the case for MSN550 / AF447 as well.

Hence - no obvious interconnection between QF72 and AF447 because of different manufacturers.
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 16:58
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Will Fraser

How then would you explain that the pressurization ACARS message was the last in the 4 minute sequence, and not the first, or at least, earlier in the sequence? If an explosion breached the hull, ISTM that loss of pressure would have happened well before 4 minutes of time had elapsed.

Beech
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 17:00
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Not familiar with the Bus so forgive me if this seems a simple question to someone.

Would the Mach Trim have been affected by the loss of the ADIRU, PIRM 1 and SEC 1 etc ? I'm assuming given a loss of Pitot input the systems will have no idea where the aircraft is in relation to MCrit / MMO etc and would therefore not be able to adjust the Mach trim as Mach increases? I'm thinking Mach Tuck as another possibility to the stall / spin scenario?
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Old 4th Jun 2009, 17:05
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Not so much here, but I sense a lessening of popular context of the power of a Thunder head, and its potential for disaster.

I mean no disrespect and I don't wish to appear flippant, but if the Fates presented me with the certainty of flight directly through a cell, or a bomb detonating in the hold, I would be tempted to inquire, 'How big a bomb?'
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