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Air France A330-200 missing

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Air France A330-200 missing

Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:05
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Just taken from the associated press website

Timeline of disappearance of Air France jet
By The Associated Press – 15 minutes ago
Timeline of events surrounding the disappearance of Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, according to Air France, Brazilian Air Force. All times in Brazilian local time:

_ 7:03 p.m. Sunday: Air France says plane left Rio de Janeiro. Brazilian Air Force says plane left at 7:30 p.m.

_ 10:30 p.m. Sunday: Air France says plane has last contact with Brazil air traffic control. Brazilian Air Force says last radio contact at 10:33 p.m., 351 miles (565 kilometers) from northeastern Brazilian city of Natal.

_ 10:48 p.m.: Brazilian Air Force says last radar contact with Brazil indicated plane flying normally.

_ 11 p.m. Sunday: Air France says plane entered zone of storms and high turbulence.

_ 11:14 p.m. Sunday: Air France receives automatic message indicating electrical circuit malfunction.

_ 11:20 p.m. Sunday: Brazilian Air Force says plane fails to make previously scheduled radio contact with Brazil. Brazil notifies air traffic control in Dakar, Senegal.

_ 2-3 a.m Monday: Air France says French military radar begins searching for plane.

_ 2:30 a.m. Monday: Brazilian Air Force says it mounts search and rescue mission with two planes.

_ 4:30 am Monday: Air France says it sets up crisis center.

_ 6:15 a.m. Monday: Plane's scheduled arrival in Paris, according to Air France.

_ 8:30 a.m. Monday: Brazilian Air Force says it was told by Air France about the message the plane sent to the company. The message indicated technical problems, including a loss of pressure and an electrical system failure, Brazilian Air Force says.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:07
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Truth is we just don't know and the thought that over 200 people have probably lost their lives is a very depressing one tonight.
Agree,,if i was in that plane i would prefer a instant end at 30´Ft then a "second end" in the Atlantic Sea

Horrible day
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:13
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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it lost all communications with the airplane and an hour later it went into a thunderstorm, and from there somehow it either broke up or crashed to the sea? Looks like there is a complicated answer to what happened but it will take some time to figure it all out. Sad for all involved
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:16
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Just a thought; could the captain be asleep "in the back" and the 2 "youngsters" up front?
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:17
  #245 (permalink)  
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Satellite pic

Here is the EUMetsat site where you can see satellite pics for the area for various times. Certainly was some vigorous convection, as seen if you view the loop around 0600Z

EUMETSAT IPPS animation - Meteosat 0 degree Infrared 10.8 America
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:20
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CDN_ATC View Post
It depends where they went down....

Here is the chart of the area with the known info at this time:



The ACARS message has supposedly been received at 02:14Z which is prior to the 02:20 ETA for TASIL.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:20
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by freshgasflow View Post
i am a non professional. I would like to know what the role of "fly by wire" could be in lightning storms. Presumably such aircraft have very high protection against electrical surges ? Are FBW aircraft more prone to control problems during electrical storms ?
I have had three lightning strikes on the A330 with little effect. On just one occasion the lightning struck the nose wheel doors on the descent and they slammed open and shut. Fortunately we were descending below 10,000 feet and were at 250 knots, a higher speed could have torn the doors off. The wires joining the flight controls to the computers and the surface actuators are very well screened in thick white plastic. The Airbus does seem to attract lightning but there has never been a serious incident until, maybe, now.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:23
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Are there any plans to develop a flight recorder device that - instead of " recording" data to a HD/tape, relays data real-time, or batches in near-real time, to a company's maintenance center, or, say, an agency or business that can store this data in the appropriate media and then archive it? Perhaps a passive system that only activates if a certain number of conditions are met, a certain number of faults/conditions that may indicate abnormalities?

It seems kind of weird that someone has not come up with the idea of capturing flight data (or at least part of it), compressing it and relaying it out of harms way via an encrypted protocol, at least for trans-oceanic flights where data retrieval may prove difficult or impossible.

We can steer rovers in Mars, send and retrieve commands to orbiters on other planets, pilot drones in war zones across the planet but we can't downlink text data from a commercial airplane?
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:27
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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Testpanel, first rest is normaly 3rd crew. ie the fo in pnf seat on the way out.
Unlikely. Could be wrong of course. I don't work for AF.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:27
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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testpanel:
Just a thought; could the captain be asleep "in the back" and the 2 "youngsters" up front?
Oh come on!
Captain 11,000 hrs TT (1700 on Airbus A330/A340)
Copilot 3,000 hrs TT (800 on Airbus A330/A340)
Copilot 6,600 hrs TT (2600 on Airbus A330/A340)
Just because they're first officers DOES NOT mean they aren't capable of handling an emergency situation.
Your post implies that the 2 first officers are somehow lesser pilots than the captain.

Last edited by YHZChick; 2nd Jun 2009 at 10:22.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:30
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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IMHO a total eletrical failure (loss of ALL eletrical buses) is as dangerous in an Airbus than it is in a 747 or any given No Manual Reversion Aircraft.

Without eletrical power the hydraulics pumps do not pump, the plane looses control.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:32
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Even if there is an area of 400NM of CBs - you cannot fly through. Flying through a core of a CB means certain death.
Obviously not true. I have flown (inadvertently) through two thunderstorms in standard jets, and they are (usually) survivable. NASA has flown hardened aircraft through many thunderstorms. While they may have enough turbulence to overload an airframe, it certainly isn't a certainty.

The forecast and satellite pictures of the area are not unusual, the comments here seem a bit overstated.

Having said that, I would still put my money on an in-flight break-up in turbulence rather than a lightning strike.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:33
  #253 (permalink)  
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previous damage

earlier on this thread were some messages about prior damage during a wing strike while taxiing. Were has this gone? When was that and any knowledge about the repairs performed? Any other information about technical difficulties on this particular plane?

first reports were indicating also a short circuit. So could probably arcing have occured and thereby a fire in the electronical system or along the wires? Could a lightnig strike damage vital wires or induce arcing thereby leading to an inflight fire?

Comments are appreciated.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:35
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Total electrical failure particularly on the Airbus A330 would result in the RAT being deployed autmoatically to power flight critical equipment like radio, flight controls etc. unless in the case of AF the RAT also fails
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:35
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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Aircraft get hit by lightning everyday.

Aircraft also accidentally fly through thunderstorms more often than you think. Every high time pilot has one or two stories to tell.

My point is this accident is not simply weather related. There has to be a lot more to the story.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:38
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Doubts over lightning's role in missing jetliner | Reuters

Reuters reporting 2 flights on the same/similar tracks, one 30 mins ahead, on e2 hours later (and to the south):

"It had been preceded safely on the same track 30 minutes earlier by a Boeing 747-400 heading to Frankfurt for Lufthansa, according to a source with access to data transmitted from jetliners for the World Meteorological Organisation.

Two hours later an MD-11 cargo plane also flown by Lufthansa passed just south of the same spot on the way to West Africa, the source told Reuters, asking not to be identified."

iX
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:40
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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checkboard

You not alone think soo

"Analysis: turbulence, not lightning, most likely cause of Air France crash"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6407081.ece
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:41
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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earlier on this thread were some messages about prior damage during a wing strike while taxiing. Were has this gone? When was that and any knowledge about the repairs performed? Any other information about technical difficulties on this particular plane?
DATE: 17.08.2006 LOCAL TIME: - LOCATION: Paris-CDG Intl AP (LFPG) COUNTRY: France
AIRLINE1: Air France TYPE: Airbus A321-211 REGISTRATION: F-GTAM C/N: 1859 AGE: 3 y + 9 m
AIRLINE2: Air France TYPE: Airbus A330-203 REGISTRATION: F-GZCP C/N: 660 AGE: 1 y + 5 m
OPERATION:1 ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Paris-CDG TO: Rome-FCO VIA: -
OPERATION2: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Paris-CDG TO: Ouagadougou VIA: -
OCCUPANTS1: PAX: - CREW: x
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
OCCUPANTS2: PAX: - CREW: x
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
Both aircraft suffered damage in a ground collision at Charles de Gaulle Airport. The tail of the A321 was substantially damaged when it was hit by the taxiing A330. Damage to the latter was considered as minor.
SOURCE(S): -


taken from:

http://www.jacdec.de/news/years/ALL2006.txt

Based upon what has been said about an electrical problem perhaps my thoughts on a latent structural failure are not likely.
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:41
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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One thing is a fact as per Air France stated..."Huge catastrophic failure" Pilots were not able to send any distress call, or even if they do send distress call nobody hears them, that only means one thing the events happen so fast that not even the crew could take immediate distress call, even with just a flick of a button
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Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:44
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Retuers reports-"Air France (AIRF.PA) said the Airbus (EAD.PA) A330 plane had hit stormy weather and "strong turbulence" and a spokesman said it could have been hit by lightning."

How does AF know this to be true. Was there any report from the airplane prior to gone missing? The cockpit is the only one who knows about turbulence.
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