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Balpa to challenge ID cards

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Balpa to challenge ID cards

Old 8th May 2009, 19:00
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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It doesnt bother me if they keep my DNA on their database forever. It also doesnt bother me if they keep any other info on me too. I havent done anything that has ever warranted the police to need any of my details and never intend too. ThereforeI couldn't care what info they hold on me, as everything they want they will get anyway, one way or another. I for one will take their £75 and it should make things easier for me when I visit other airports that wont accept my Man ID as a credible source of ID, namely BHX
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Old 8th May 2009, 19:46
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I see you signed up with your real name....Very brave...
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Old 8th May 2009, 19:47
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Let's see you say that when you get a knock on the door at 6am because the info on the database is wrong and you get flagged as a wanted bank robber/rapist/<insert crime here> because you won't be able to claim it wasn't you because the database says it was.
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Old 8th May 2009, 19:55
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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ID Cards

Time for me to be unpopular ( nothing new there I hear some say ).

Commercial pilots can most certainly afford ID cards, so BALPA's cries fall on deaf ears as far as I'm concerned.

You may well be covered already with ID, but after 9/11 nothing is too much...

The quoted '£ 5 Billion' includes £4 billion upgrading the general passport system, so the ID cost is 'only' £ 1 billion, which while handy to you & me - or the forces - is apparently nothing to bankers who screw up ( thank god they didn't fancy flying as a career ).

I am a lot more concerned however, that luggage & catering staff must have to go through these checks, they are the weak link in the security chain and as they are low paid I'd expect their employers to cover the ID cost ( if they pass ! ).
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Old 8th May 2009, 20:12
  #25 (permalink)  
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Not the 9/11 argument again

Do I need to point out that the 9/11 offenders were passengers, NOT staff.


I don't see why we have to suffer because the government keeps playing the 'terrorist' card....


S78
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Old 8th May 2009, 20:18
  #26 (permalink)  
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Commercial pilots can most certainly afford ID cards,
Yes but I will be the one who chooses what I spend my money on.

Not this fecking government who all ready have enough of it.
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Old 8th May 2009, 20:31
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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You may well be covered already with ID, but after 9/11 nothing is too much...
What a ridiculous and stupid argument.

Do you honestly think ID cards would have prevented 9/11 ?

Are are you stupid enough to have been taken in by this preposterously incompetent government ?
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Old 8th May 2009, 21:03
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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All terrorists responsible for the atrocities in London would have had a UK national ID card.
Some idiots on here just cannot see the wood for the trees.
The only people who will suffer under the proposals will be innocent people.
Does anyone really think that the opening price of the ID will stay at that once it's compulsory...Dream merchants.
I find that you cannot convince these misguided people who quote 9/11 or 'Nothing to hide'.
They live in a perfect world where the Government will always be answerable to the people and the Police force has not been politicised. Sight only as far as the end of their noses at max...
Good job some are up to the fight...
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Old 8th May 2009, 21:07
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Im sure being woken up at 6am wouldn't be a pleasant experiance by the police, but if the system has got flawwed data on it then when the person was arrested and re-tested it would be obvious it wasnt that person. Then look on the positive side....... A serious crime/rape/murder etc happens and they look on the system. Low and behold the computer says it was x, y or z and the person is duely arrested quickly before commiting several more offences.....

Still a bad idea?

As for you paying for it? If i were to need one for work, I have already spoken to my bosses and they said if as an airside worker I needed one they would be liable to pay for it under T&C's
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Old 8th May 2009, 22:04
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Ridiculous & Stupid Argument

Well, Cargo Clown,

You chose that callsign not me...

ANY extra ID, especially sophisticated kit - combined with 'Intel' of course not quite available at the time - might have prevented 9/11.

I would ask you to cast your mind back to the international feeling just after that happened, the dumb shock for a while.

It would indeed be ridiculous to forget that for the sake of your importance.

I'm sorry if it interferes with your puddle jumping and trolley dollies, but this, as I say especially applied to ground personnel, is one of the several ways to go.

Meanwhile I'll feel a lot happier in a private or military aircraft, and I expect so will a lot of other people, who'll holiday locally ( I'm an air - air photographer ).

Precious bus drivers should be glad of all the security help they can get, and it would happen under any government; as I mentioned, I am no more a fan of this lot than any other.

Last edited by Double Zero; 8th May 2009 at 23:08.
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Old 9th May 2009, 00:35
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Danger

May I recommend to all that they nip down to the video store and rent the wonderful Terry Gilliam film BRAZIL, and at the same time pick up 1984 starring John Hurt. Maybe Orwell had it right. The government have repeatedly shown themselves incapable of safeguarding their data (Discs lost in the post, laptops stolen etc. etc.) even on a casual basis, let alone against malicious intent.

F88 Hiding
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Old 9th May 2009, 07:42
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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The UK papers for the last few days have been full of the disgusting antics of our so-called leaders and MPs and their expenses claims. This confidential information has been leaked, with devastating consequences to the MPs who can only squeak about calling the police - but the damage has been done.
Now imagine if this was confidential ID information, leaked for criminal or ideological reasons. The whole ID/security system would be compromised. No doubt our leaders would be squeaking about calling the police - but the damage would have been done. No doubt we would be back to 'lock-down' at UK airports, with the security monkeys in complete control of aviation. What a waste of £5bn .....

Last edited by jshg; 9th May 2009 at 08:42.
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Old 9th May 2009, 08:42
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I read some of the comments and despair at the level of understanding and comprehension that apparently exists.


If you think the new National ID will somehow make it easier to enter other airports ..... please go and look carfeully at how it's used.

The only difference is that currently you fill out a criminal records check form which your employer sends to Disclosure Scotland ... when that comes back clear you take it to get your EGCC ID card. To enter airside you produce that (the EGCC ID airside pass) as you go through the security checks.


The only change that will take place is that soon in order to sign and post the criminal check form to Disclosure Scotland you will need to have a National ID Card.

Nothing else at all changes .... your EGCC card will look/feel/work/not work exactly the same as it does today.

You will not carry or produce your National ID card at all. It will sit at home in the drawer gathering dust.


I'm waiting for clarification of one point at the moment - it appears that you won't even need to produce it to anyone (who would that be anyway?) as part of the application for the criminal records check, you simply record it's number on the application..... anyone see the flaw there??


Workers from outside the UK will continue to always pass the criminal record check regardless of what they've done in their own country as the UK criminal records contain no details of offences outside the UK.


With no access or ability to check the veracity of personal information for foreign workers how can the issuing of a UK National ID card give any assurance that they pose no threat ........ how does it improve border control? The same sources used to check foreign visas/passport validity/risk will provide the information to allow foreign workers to be given a National ID card - how does it suddenly become more effective?

The only advantage I can see is that the biometric data associated with the ID card will (presumably) prevent holding more than one ID card where the person could hold more than one passport (legally or otherwise).


And for the UK resident ID card holders what changes - they can still hold a properly issued ID card and carry out a terrorist act.



I would draw a comparison between this and the present debate of the DNA database. Again the collecting and retention of personal data which other countries don't seem to see the need for and apparently when looking at crime solving doesn't lead to the UK having a better solution rate.


Surely part of the "sense check" here needs to be why does the UK see the desperate need for these steps while the rest of the world apparently does not .....



I'm hoping the T&G will throw their hat in the ring and object but so far it seems not ... perhaps too closely wedded to the politicians introducing it?



Well done BALPA

Last edited by 42psi; 9th May 2009 at 09:13. Reason: speeling!
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Old 9th May 2009, 10:17
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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So you have another bit of plastic with your picture and some fairly innocuous data. At the moment,it appears, nobody even has the equipment to read the data on the card. Big deal.

You will be able to obtain one of these cards soon for£30 if you live in Manchester - of course they are purely voluntary.

Unless you need to go airside at MAN in which case you won’t have to pay £30. Oh and you won’t get airside without one because you need the ID card to get a security pass. Of cause ID cards are voluntary, so long as you don’t need your job.

What is the point of an ID card unless it is compulsory for everyone? No point at all. So when will they (inevitably) become compulsory for all?

What other information will the government eventually demand to put on your voluntary ID card. Who will hold that information - looks like a private sector company, probably a US company.

If that company misuses the information, will they be subject to UK criminal law? It appears not.

Who will have access to that information; they will not tell us but it appears that an awful lot of people will.

Councils and Quangos such as the MCA and are already selling/passing personal information to companies for commercial purposes. The press have moles with access to the national police computer and the DVLA databases plus goodness knows what others. Databases cannot be 100% secure.

This is not just for now. It is for our children and grandchildren. We may have a relatively benign, if incompetent and misguided, government now but who knows who will be in Downing St in twenty years to inherit a Stalinist database of every individual in the country. Your DNA profile may be on it, you may be Jewish..................... Far fetched but not impossible.

Don’t give them the chance.
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Old 9th May 2009, 12:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Upon opening this thread there was a google advert at the top of the page which read, "ID card starter kit - everything you need to print ID cards".

Enough said. What a waste of taxpayers money.
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Old 9th May 2009, 16:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Fragman,

'Brazil' is one of my favourite films !

My copy was stolen - I know who it was, and wouldn't mind contributing towards his ID card entries...he happens to be scum and near Gatwick, but not related to the airport as far as I know ( I don't envy any of you having to live in that area ).

I am not daft enough to follow the 'nothing to hide' theory, but as most of the money is going on passport systems anyway, I'd have thought airports are one place any ID check going is worthwhile.
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Old 9th May 2009, 22:18
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I'd have thought airports are one place any ID check going is worthwhile.


PP

edit to add some characters to make the minimum length for posting!
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Old 9th May 2009, 23:56
  #38 (permalink)  
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mrmaggot:
but if the system has got flawwed data on it then when the person was arrested and re-tested it would be obvious it wasnt that person.
May I suggest you read the following account to see where your logic might be slightly off balance?
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Old 10th May 2009, 01:11
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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LH2

The link you provided goes to a webpage of endless waffle. It seems to be more a case of "profiling" than mistaken identity/DNA. Please specify which section supports your point. And how will an ID card help in this situation?

I'm afraid I'm with mrmaggot on this one. Oops sorry - its mrmagooo isn't it. Must be a case of mistaken identity.

Remember every terrorist of 7/7 would probably have had a valid ID card - so I fail to see how their crime have been prevented?

Last edited by beatnik; 10th May 2009 at 01:14. Reason: Spelling
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Old 10th May 2009, 08:53
  #40 (permalink)  
LH2
 
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The link you provided goes to a webpage of endless waffle. [....]
a) There was a time (I like to think anyway) when people trying to form an opinion about something would actually take the trouble to inform themselves sufficiently, even if it meant some reading effort.

b) Many if not most of the people who have followed the privacy debate in the UK in the last three years would be familiar with David Méry's writings on the subject and this story in particular (which is what prompted his subsequent interest in the subject).

Please specify which section supports your point.
c) I believe you should be able to answer your own question with only a quick peruse of the above link, as well as perhaps clarifying in your mind what "my point" is when I try to suggest to Maggot (if he can't spell his own handle it's his problem) that there might be a slight problem with this incredibly naïve "nothing to hide" argument.

As already pointed out, why does he and practically everyone else of us posts under an alias, even though I would hazard the majority of us don't have "anything to hide" in particular.

d) Just to make it clear, I am not having a go at anyone here, but as in any debate, I expect to hear informed opinions and not parroting whatever headlines your newspaper publishes, or whatever you think might be going on based on your own prejudices, which is why I fully concur with 289.6kPa's sentiment in the opening paragraph of his previous post.

e) I apologise for the ordered list format of this post. Residual brain damage from those management courses years ago.
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