Air Canada Captain arrested on suspicion of alcohol offence CLEARED
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Originally Posted by eliptic
............the primary cause of the crash was poor training..........
Please, spare us.
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Humpmedumpme
I don´t want to fly with any of them!!!
And i am going to end my discussion with this becous i will never change my opinion on the alcohol issue
But, anyway i will make the conclusion to my future flights , the risk ending up with a flight with a toxic crew probably will be the same chances i have to win the lottery
Would you rather fly with someone who had an undisclosed amount of alcohol in his blood or had poor training?
And i am going to end my discussion with this becous i will never change my opinion on the alcohol issue
But, anyway i will make the conclusion to my future flights , the risk ending up with a flight with a toxic crew probably will be the same chances i have to win the lottery
Plastic PPRuNer
For Heavens sake!
Is there any evidence that intoxicated pilots present a "clear and present danger" to the passengers and the industry? Answer: No, none whatever.
In that case all this "atemschnuffelei" (officious breath-sniffing) by untrained security staff is harassment pure and simple.
Mac the Exasperated
Is there any evidence that intoxicated pilots present a "clear and present danger" to the passengers and the industry? Answer: No, none whatever.
In that case all this "atemschnuffelei" (officious breath-sniffing) by untrained security staff is harassment pure and simple.
Mac the Exasperated
Mach 3
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Presumably the law was changed because proving one was "unfit for duty" before you'd done any duty was a little tricky?
Hence the introduction of the second "arbitrary" offence.
Now we've got two useless offences and we call that progress.
Tremendous.
Hence the introduction of the second "arbitrary" offence.
Now we've got two useless offences and we call that progress.
Tremendous.
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Alcohol as a factor in the PERM accident
Eliptic
If you are referencing the PERM 737 crash I believe the key factor noted by the investigators here was the reversion by the pilot flying to a previously learned interpretation of the AI in IFR conditions that resulted in loss of control and terrain impact. I believe the report noted that the alcohol noted in the autopsy could have been associated with natural levels and/or contamination by other alcohol sources on the aircraft at the time of the crash.
If you are referencing the PERM 737 crash I believe the key factor noted by the investigators here was the reversion by the pilot flying to a previously learned interpretation of the AI in IFR conditions that resulted in loss of control and terrain impact. I believe the report noted that the alcohol noted in the autopsy could have been associated with natural levels and/or contamination by other alcohol sources on the aircraft at the time of the crash.
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Humpmedumpme
Does not match with figures given by Capt_Claret in post #89, based on such figures there is a chance every 2000! Pretty good to win a lottery.
In the Perm 737 thread there are serious allegation from Russian speakers based on the ATC tapes that the Captain was intoxicated.
Now you've admitted that you've got about a 1 in 14 million chance of flying with an intoxicated pilot I'm pleased that you've decided to end your discussion (blind, head in the sand monologue).
If you are referencing the PERM 737 crash I believe the key factor noted by the investigators here was the reversion by the pilot flying to a previously learned interpretation of the AI in IFR conditions that resulted in loss of control and terrain impact. I believe the report noted that the alcohol noted in the autopsy could have been associated with natural levels and/or contamination by other alcohol sources on the aircraft at the time of the crash.
Last edited by FrequentSLF; 1st May 2009 at 11:06.
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Michael Birbeck
I don´t know, and what happen in past we can discuss forever ,,
My only thing was to hear pilots say "it is not ok flying with alcohol" period,,
The rest what´s ok or not with security playing alco police or fatigue are more dangerous or or etc etc,,,that i rest my case on(or i did not even try to start argue on)
"I love flying-im not a pilot enemy"
I don´t know, and what happen in past we can discuss forever ,,
My only thing was to hear pilots say "it is not ok flying with alcohol" period,,
The rest what´s ok or not with security playing alco police or fatigue are more dangerous or or etc etc,,,that i rest my case on(or i did not even try to start argue on)
"I love flying-im not a pilot enemy"
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Humpmedumpme
It is clear from your previous posts that what concerns you more are training and fatigue, which undoubtedly are major issues.
I do not want to start playing the numbers game, since I do not have any reliable figures in my hand. Just reported what was stated previously here.
It is clear from your previous posts that what concerns you more are training and fatigue, which undoubtedly are major issues.
I do not want to start playing the numbers game, since I do not have any reliable figures in my hand. Just reported what was stated previously here.
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Risk factors.
Eliptic
No intention to suggest that you are anti pilot or aviation.Your contributions are thought provoking.
I guess the summmary of this thread might be that there a mutiple risk factors affecting pilot performance and that in the scheme of things the powers that be have focussed on one, namely alcohol (using Stasi like security methods and draconian legislation) to the almost complete exclusion of other factors that may be just as important, or more so, thereby adding no additional value to safety.
No intention to suggest that you are anti pilot or aviation.Your contributions are thought provoking.
I guess the summmary of this thread might be that there a mutiple risk factors affecting pilot performance and that in the scheme of things the powers that be have focussed on one, namely alcohol (using Stasi like security methods and draconian legislation) to the almost complete exclusion of other factors that may be just as important, or more so, thereby adding no additional value to safety.
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Michael Birbeck
Excellent summary. Fatigue is far more of an issue (but much harder to address).
I think folks here are missing ecliptics point. The primary cause of the Perm accident may have been bad training or whatever, but the fact he is bringing out is that the Chief Pilot was found to have alcohol in his blood - in other words, the one guy who should have been obeying his own rules, wasn't.
And just to throw another curve ball in this argument, I would be fairly sure that the risk of pilot incapacitation due to a toxic fumes event is more likely than alcohol being the cause of an accident. So, for that matter, could be stress, a bad curry, or even an insect trapped in the flight deck.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't work to ensure that ALL factors that might cause an accident are eliminated, as far as is practicable. Alcohol is a very simple factor to eliminate.
Excellent summary. Fatigue is far more of an issue (but much harder to address).
I think folks here are missing ecliptics point. The primary cause of the Perm accident may have been bad training or whatever, but the fact he is bringing out is that the Chief Pilot was found to have alcohol in his blood - in other words, the one guy who should have been obeying his own rules, wasn't.
And just to throw another curve ball in this argument, I would be fairly sure that the risk of pilot incapacitation due to a toxic fumes event is more likely than alcohol being the cause of an accident. So, for that matter, could be stress, a bad curry, or even an insect trapped in the flight deck.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't work to ensure that ALL factors that might cause an accident are eliminated, as far as is practicable. Alcohol is a very simple factor to eliminate.
P.S. Can we agree not to drag ourselves through this again if / when it happens again?
alas there are still going to be some with judgemental posts
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remoak
Yes, I read it. I was curious about what your response might be. I don’t share your opinions but we’re each entitled to our own.
Re your first two paragraphs about the legal aspects:
We remain poles apart, but I’m content to let people decide between your understanding and my explanation. (I’ve been a lawyer for almost exactly 35 years, my two specialist areas being criminal law and aviation law.)
Are you sure that's correct? And fair to the Chief Pilot?
I ask because I have a vague recollection (which may be wrong) that alcohol consumption was just one of three possible explanations for the small amount of alcohol in his blood.
FL
I'm sure you will read this, even if you choose to engage no further in the discussion.
Re your first two paragraphs about the legal aspects:
We remain poles apart, but I’m content to let people decide between your understanding and my explanation. (I’ve been a lawyer for almost exactly 35 years, my two specialist areas being criminal law and aviation law.)
The primary cause of the Perm accident may have been bad training or whatever .......... but the Chief Pilot was found to have alcohol in his blood - in other words, the one guy who should have been obeying his own rules, wasn't.
I ask because I have a vague recollection (which may be wrong) that alcohol consumption was just one of three possible explanations for the small amount of alcohol in his blood.
FL
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Some of these laws have gone way past sensible.
I wonder how many legislators, who make these laws and vote on these laws have just come back from lunch with a drink or two in them?
If the legislators had to succumb to the same stringent laws we do, we probably wouldn't have so many ridiculous laws???
Time for a pint. oops, have to fly tonight, darn!
I wonder how many legislators, who make these laws and vote on these laws have just come back from lunch with a drink or two in them?
If the legislators had to succumb to the same stringent laws we do, we probably wouldn't have so many ridiculous laws???
Time for a pint. oops, have to fly tonight, darn!
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YouTube - Drunk Vegas Lawyer causes mistrial in court Part 1
Any professional worker who turns up to perform his/her duties impaired through drink or drugs has a problem.
They would do well to recognise this to preserve their own lives, let alone others.
This is part 1 of four clips of a high profile lawyer who failed to recognise his problem until the s--t hit the fan with sufficient volume to destroy his career.
Any pilot who is experiencing difficulties may well be advised to watch all four clips.
Any professional worker who turns up to perform his/her duties impaired through drink or drugs has a problem.
They would do well to recognise this to preserve their own lives, let alone others.
This is part 1 of four clips of a high profile lawyer who failed to recognise his problem until the s--t hit the fan with sufficient volume to destroy his career.
Any pilot who is experiencing difficulties may well be advised to watch all four clips.
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Perhaps someone who is involved, or the Canadian pilots union ? should have their avocats contact the involved British newspapers and demand the record be set straight, citing defamation of character, potential loss of business for the carrier concerned etc etc. About time we started hitting back at these bar-stewards. They are very quick to publish accusations, painfully remit in setting the record straight afterwards.