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LHR new security dictat

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LHR new security dictat

Old 25th Apr 2009, 07:14
  #61 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: essex
Posts: 177

Yup, I've owned one for twelve years as my personal aeroplane, and delivered several directly from the factory many years ago.
A fine aeroplane, IF flown properly.

Next question?

And, presumably, in your perfect world YOU fly it properly.

The next question is the question you continue to duck: why should the Captain of a crew lose his job for the misdemeanours of a cabin-crew member?

A simple analogy: parents of an 18 year-old would be sent to jail if he/she stabs someone?

sweetie76 is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2009, 08:10
  #62 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
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I'll throw my hat into the ring here!!

Firstly I'll point out that I'm a budding flyer who has loved avaition from being knee high to a grasshopper and that I work on security (its a complete Marmite job for staff towards us were liked or not liked simple!)

Simple answer is that the UK government is a stickler for following every rule to the letter that Europe imposes and so the DFT come down like a ton of bricks on any AD operator for not following the rules properly and therefore aviation staff get targeted and checked more thoroughly than pax sometimes even thought we have for a lot of our jobs very stringent background checks but then still get treated with mistrust!!

As for the regulations and restrictions a lot of crews, flight deck and ground staff come to work and go through security without hassle no tutting, no causing a scene, not taking it personal and on the whole being very jovial and understanding that it is just another part of their day realizing that security as themselves have a job to do

On the other hand I've seen crews, flight deck and ground staff acting like five year old kids having temper tantrums and having a whole you are the great unwashed attitude towards security.

I do know also that some security do go on power trips with the little power they have given to them and that its a double edged sword in terms of respect between staff, but personally I've found simple phrase and a good one to stick by is 'treat others how you would like to be treated' it works a treat.

Also I've seen the rules come and go and the liberties slowly being taken away from staff and can full well understand the frustrations of some staff who have been in the industry for donkey's years and have seen a decline in the industry.

I have respect for all staff however low or high powered their job is and I also have a great amount of respect for Pilots as you guys are in a job I would love to be in and with a bit of luck and time hopefully will get to work in the best office in world.

and one final point I'll make is that in this regulation driven aviation world of ours in the UK a lot of the time common sense would like to be used but we're all bound by the rules and don't feel like putting our necks and jobs on the line for one small easily resolvable matter.
bravotangoegcc is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2009, 08:43
  #63 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,210

Interesting view from the other side....................... however the rules set down by the DfT are enacted in a number of ways and what is good for one airport is not for another.

Manchester happens to be the very worst airport in the UK in the way it treats crews, I have quietly walked away from treatment that in any other profession would be classed as sexual abuse or assault, I have had my bags tuned out in front of the crew and passengers in an act that seemed to be some sort of sport for the security staff. The passage of a package that was a birthday present for my wife THREE times past the X-ray and then ripping it open was totally uncalled for (before you ask the items were not my size!) and was harassment of the worst type and the items went in the bin after the being pawed by the so called security operative.

On another passage of MAN security was marked by the insistence that I removed my items of clothing to examine my knee the scale of the clothing removal that was insisted upon was totally out of proportion to the examination requested.

Throughout my career I have tried to treat all staff in a way that I would like to be treated, with respect an common courtesy however I have had enough of the games and stupidity of the security staff at Manchester. I have had enough harassment and abuse from the likes of Manchester security and will take the most robust action that the law permits the next time that I am abused.

If you are doing your job properly you have nothing to fear from me but if one of your workmate steps out of line he or she can expect more (legal) trouble to be visited upon them that they would have ever imagined existed.
A and C is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2009, 09:35
  #64 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
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A and C

I have seen and have heard and even cringed about some of the actions taken of which you speak and have heard we are seen as one of the worst security towards crew in the UK by talking to crews and reading from websites such as this one.

Also I've seen the many different interpretations of the DFT rules too and agree that there isn't enough uniformity regarding the rules.

Its good that you also treat people how you expect to be treated as I've said I've seen many others who don't have this simple common courtesy, but I can't speak about the actions of others (let alone apologise as it would be a hollow one) and am always mindful of the need to do the job correctly.

Apart from that I wish you safe and happy flying (and transit through MAN)
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Old 26th Apr 2009, 09:41
  #65 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: England
Posts: 1,024
Manchester cargo apron entrance, this week:
Seen written in large black letters on the back of a female security staffs dayglo jacket;


Am I losing my perspective / sense of humour or...........????

You got a problem with pit bulls?

Capt Pit Bull is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2009, 10:32
  #66 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 1998
Posts: 62
Is it true that for a civil servant to qualify for the security brief at the D of T he has to leave school with no qualifications?
BIG MACH is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2009, 12:10
  #67 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Continental Europe
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the UK government is a stickler for following every rule to the letter that Europe imposes
Um, no, the UK government has imposed these rules. The restrictions do not apply to crew in Europe.
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Old 26th Apr 2009, 12:50
  #68 (permalink)  
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Cruella De Ville

There is a way of dealing with this tomfoolery. Ask to see the risk assessment that underpins all these security/safety measures and then ask to see the 'fit and proper person' qualification from those who put the risk analysis together. Thing is, whilst the airport drongos are fixating on clear plastic bags and shavings of sawdust, they are mssing the planks of wood! Airport security have entirely lost the plot in respect of how terrorists can sabotage an aircraft and, frankly, the greater threat is always airside, not non-airside.
Cruella De Ville is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2009, 10:16
  #69 (permalink)  
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Or you could lobby your MP and ask them to attend the BALPA reception in the Commons Dining Room between 4 pm and 6 pm. on Tuesday 5th May on this and other matters.

Don’t know your MP?
UK Parliament
Zeus is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2009, 14:29
  #70 (permalink)  
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Location: north of barlu
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Email sent to MP asking him to attend .................. now if you all sent an email to your MP's maybe we would start getting the message across because the MP's sure don't have the time to read PPRuNe!

Its easy just click on the link on the post by Zeus above.
A and C is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2009, 18:53
  #71 (permalink)  
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Everyone appears to concentrate on the incompetence of the "security" droids and the stupid rules.......

Everyone seems to overlook the sheer COST to this country , in having It's most-wired, highest producing ,most commercially savvy business leaders, stood like a bunch of naughty kids , collectively wasting over a hundred hours of their POTENTIAL earning-power, for these farcical "security" charades.

Where the hell are BALPA, the CBI, the FSB and the other trade-bodies and representatives ?

Brown has allowed the *ankers to rape the country's coffers 9after he gave away our gold-reserves).....now he's intent on driving frequent-flyers abroad.

Damned if I'd put up with it. Amazing that someone isn't doing consolidated charters on popular routes and allowing "private parties" to bypass the circus.

Acute loss of revenue might just wake up a few of the rule-influencers.
cockney steve is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2009, 19:00
  #72 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
Emailed my MP asking him to attend the BALPA reception. Any UK crewmember who doesn't do the same really has no grounds to complain about this fiasco. Get organised.
Old 27th Apr 2009, 19:22
  #73 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 70
Posts: 2

I think you have got it right. As an SLF frequent flyer living abroad I long ago gave up landing at a UK airport to then catch a domestic flight to my final destination, as the security hassle from the UK security staff is just too much to stand, especially coming in on an LH flight.
I now ensure I land at a continental hub and make my final connection from there. I will even accept a landing at CDG before a landing at LHR or Stansted
freddie50 is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2009, 19:37
  #74 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 70
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Make your MP work for his sandwiches

Just a note - asked my MP to attend on 5th also.
Mass lobbies of voters sometimes has an effect
freddie50 is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2009, 19:49
  #75 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,959
Have also faxed/emailed my MP - the more the merrier. This link is useful to write your MP:-

Fax your MP
fireflybob is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2009, 21:33
  #76 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 40
As a passenger I frequently fly from many UK aiports and don't experience any issues at security. I am fully aware of what the rules are, make sure I comply and get through security in a pleasant manner with no issues whatsover.

This suggests the crews that are having issues aren't complying with the rules in which case they can't complain about security picking up on this as they are only doing their job, or the security staff who work in crew areas are being deliberately difficult which I find hard to believe.

If this is the case people should be complaining to BAA or the relevant airport owner directly. I complained to BAA via their website about security queues when they were a problem last year and received a response so at the very least it might raise more awareness than complaining on here.

Even better ask to speak to the service manager once you've got through security at which point its too late for the security agents to be awkward to you in return
DISCOKID is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2009, 07:56
  #77 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,210

If you are crew you find that all the airports make up different "extra" rules as to what you can and can't do so a crew member can be good for one airport and find that three hours later at another airport in breach on the local "rules".

What we want is a common standard............... no more.
A and C is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2009, 17:53
  #78 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,964
Hello All,

If there are any BALPA pilots from Crawley reading this thread, please invite our MP Mrs L Moffatt. She has informed me that she would be delighted to attend, but as yet, has had no formal invite from BALPA.

Litebulbs is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2009, 00:05
  #79 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: london
Posts: 9
Thought for the day

In the same way we all want good experienced pilots to save aircraft with good judgment calls when something happens. (hudson springs to mind)

We also want good experienced security to properly judge what luggage actually causes risks. Going by the checklist blind doesn’t always help.

At the end of the day both pilots, crew and security protect planes and passengers, so shouldn’t we be asking BAA for the experienced security officials.
zukini is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2009, 03:40
  #80 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
[quote]Can someone tell me why the Captain (short or long-haul) should have his ID - and livelihood - removed by Security because a cabin-crew member circumvents the system and manages to smuggle a 150 ml bottle of shampoo into the cabin?[quote]
I suspect that this would be totally unenforcable in a court of law.
Re-Heat is offline  

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