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Toxic cabin air is more poisonous than reckoned

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Toxic cabin air is more poisonous than reckoned

Old 19th Apr 2009, 10:29
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Toxic cabin air is more poisonous than reckoned

I came across this article just recently.
It would appear the evidence has been there all the time, it is just that many refused to accept it.

Toxic cabin air is more poisonous than reckoned - Learmount

BR.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 10:32
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787!!!!!!!
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 11:05
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I just recently came across a very interesting report.

A friend of mine showed it to me. It was link to a previously aired report on a german channel.
Unfortunately i can't remember the link, but it was shocking...
There was a BA Cpt and a british FA intervied... SHOCKING!!!!! These two couldn't control their body... they where shaking.
The team took samples on many different airplanes and had them analyzed...
The most poluted ac was a Condor 757-300 followed by a BAE 146 ..
It was put down to a specific engine OIL and of course leaky engine seals...

Maybe someone can help with a link...
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 11:42
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There is quite a bit of information including links to the reports you talk about in a previous installment of David Learmont's Blog. Additionally there is Home - Aerotoxic Association - Support for Aerotoxic Syndrome Sufferers where you can find a lot of reports and scientific papers about that subject as well as information for those that are subject to air poisoning.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 14:22
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Scary stuff...

Made me wonder if the exhaust fumes produced by two stroke engines (petrol/oil mixture) contain TCP's?

Apologies for bending the topic slightly but I have a good reason for asking, can anyone enlighten me?
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 14:48
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I'm going to get flamed for this but....

Yes, ask the farming community, Organo-phosphates are very nasty. The individual reports are "shocking", and make great fodder for the media. The Aerotoxic campaign is getting very good at grabbing the headlines...but until somebody produces overwhelming epidemiological (?sp.) evidence I'm filing this in the same folder as the various Cosmic Radiation and Flying scares.....sorry of that opinion offends.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 15:12
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No offence taken, thanks for your input, I'll do a bit of digging into that...
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 15:46
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German links

WDR Plus Minus: 24/3/09
Gift in der flugzeugcabine - Meldepflicht verletzt/
DasErste.de - Plusminus - Luftfahrt (24.03.2009)
DasErste - Plusminus: Gift in der Flugzeugkabine - Meldepflicht verletzt? =
English
Obligation to report disregarded
DasErste - Plusminus: Aviation - Obligation to report disregarded (English) =

Another German station; Late night chat program: 25/3/09
Übel über den Wolken - Videos - TV total


German TV
WDR -9/3/09
Flugverkehr: Ungefilterte Kabinenluft - markt - WDR Fernsehen

Wiggy,

but until somebody produces overwhelming epidemiological (?sp.) evidence I'm filing this in the same folder as the various Cosmic Radiation and Flying scares.....sorry of that opinion offends.
Doesn't the fact that nobody has done such an obvious, long overdue survey indicate that they know exactly what they will eventually find?

How about:

1) 26 out of 26 pilots had highly abnormal blood results in 2006 - ask BALPA, they know ALL about it.

2) Why are pilots discouraged from donating blood?

3) When the "History of the world" is finally written - Aerotoxic Syndrome will definitely be in the index. No question.

DB
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 16:14
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DB

"Doesn't the fact that nobody has done such an obvious, long overdue survey indicate that they know exactly what they will eventually find?"

Not to me it doesn't, I'm not convinced it's "obvious", any more so than the supposed link between flying and cancer is "obvious".

"Why are pilots discouraged from donating blood?"

Are they? First I've heard of it, nobody discouraged me from donating blood the last time I did it so where has your info come from?

"26 out of 26 pilots had highly abnormal blood results in 2006 - ask BALPA, they know ALL about it".

Without knowing the context that's a meaningless comment...I know dozens if not hundreds of pilots who fly or have flown the 757 or the 146 who haven't got abnormal anything. As for "BALPA knowing ALL about it" well, yes, they do have an opinion on the Aerotoxic campaign, but possibly not the same one as you.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 19:09
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I just recently came across a very interesting report.

A friend of mine showed it to me. It was link to a previously aired report on a german channel.
Unfortunately i can't remember the link, but it was shocking...
There was a BA Cpt and a british FA intervied... SHOCKING!!!!! These two couldn't control their body... they where shaking.
The team took samples on many different airplanes and had them analyzed...
The most poluted ac was a Condor 757-300 followed by a BAE 146 ..
It was put down to a specific engine OIL and of course leaky engine seals...

Maybe someone can help with a link...


Wonder if the Tristar L1011-500 was in that test! With 3 packs, it was supposed to recycle 100% of the A/C air EVERY 3 MINUTES !!!

Now, that was a plane... Or am I getting too old for this?
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 19:36
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Balpa 2005

"We wish to bring to the urgent attention of Government, Aviation Regulators and the Airline and Aerospace industry the following conclusions, distilled from the conference. (Contaminated Air Protection Conference 20th and 21st April 2005)

There is a workplace problem resulting in chronic and acute illness amongst flight crew (both pilots and cabin crew).

The work place in which these illnesses are being induced is the aircraft cabin environment.

This, we conclude, is resulting in significant flight safety issues, in addition to unacceptable flight crew personnel health implications.

Further, we are concerned the passengers may also be suffering from similar symptoms to those exhibited by the flight crew.

We urgently call upon Government, Industry and Regulators to work in partnership with the cabin environment medical and analyst specialists and representatives from flight crew uniuons to analyse, quantify and remedy the cabin air qulaity problems that we have IDENTIFIED EXIST".

Wiggy,

The above was written when I was still flying a BAe 146, had been very sick for 16 years and didn't have a clue why?

It will be the 4th anniversary of the conference tomorrow and I can assure you the toxic fumes are still the same, people are still sick (and often don't know why?), the Government still claim not to know what is in the fumes.

Please look at all the evidence before you dismiss this serious issue, which has already been worked out by most people - with predictable results, depending on which side of the argument you happen to be.

Both sides can not be right.

Oil fumes do - exactly what it says on the tin....

YouTube - Pilot Union Boss Blows Whistle

Unhappy Anniversary - BALPA.

Long live the Independent Pilots Association! Looking after ALL its members.


DB
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 19:59
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Made me wonder if the exhaust fumes produced by two stroke engines (petrol/oil mixture) contain TCP's?
That's a good question. I have always considered fresh motor engine oils to be "mostly harmless". A grovel round the Googleweb found me the Material Safety Data Sheets for Mobil and Shell's 2-stroke oils, as some examples. I can't say I went and found the MSDS for every 2-stroke oil out there. For some examples, Shell's data is here.

All the 2-stroke oils I found MSDS for claimed they were of low toxicity and particularly didn't mention TCP, phosphates, or neurotoxicity like the MSDS for some jet turbine oils. So I reckon they're fairly safe from the ingredients point of view.

As mentioned in some of the MSDS, combustion products from the engine are a different matter: Engine exhaust gases, especially from 2-stroke engines, may contain carbon monoxide, fine particulate soot, a veritable galaxy of interesting aromatic (and non-aromatic) hydrocarbons of varying toxicity, etc, etc. Used engine oil also is contaminated with a lot of such things. Motor fuel (especially petrol) has all sorts of things you don't want to get in you, like benzene, MBTE, etc. So I wouldn't hold my face in front of a 2-stroke exhaust any more than a 4-stroke or a jet turbine exhaust, but I don't think the 2-stroke is being deliberately loaded up with any neurotoxins.
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Old 19th Apr 2009, 23:56
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But there are some very fancy high-performance (read racing, but marketed for fast road use) 2-stroke oils out there... you know they're fancy when they cost about 5 times the normal ones!
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 02:39
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nicolai

Appreciate the info, thanks. The key thing here appears to be that we are talking about fumes from combusted oils, the properties of which are totally different from the fumes from the same oils in a non-combusted state.

Incidentally I asked the question because we live in a city where there are thousands of 2-stroke motorcycles on the road, the fumes from these beasts are pretty horrendous sometimes so it is a matter of concern to us.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 07:03
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Tricresyl phosphate MSDS

TRICRESYL PHOSPHATE

TCP damages human central nervous systems.

No exposure limits set.

When you breathe it - you risk becoming very sick with nervous system damage.

It does exactly what is says on the oil tin.

Ask BALPA - they have known all about it since 2005. I found out to my cost a year later - in 2006.

I thought everyone knew by now....

Which bit don't people understand? www.aerotoxic.org for further.

DB
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 09:49
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carjockey: The key thing here appears to be that we are talking about fumes from combusted oils, the properties of which are totally different from the fumes from the same oils in a non-combusted state.
Indeed they are! My understanding of the entire oil-contaminated-cabin-air issue so far is that crews report problems after engine bleed air is contaminated by (unburnt) oil, from leaking HP compressor seals and similar. Is anyone complaining about ending up breathing turbine combustion products on a regular basis? Bleed air shouldn't have any combustion products (from the turbine combustion chamber) unless your turbine has some serious problems... "SMOKE/FUMES" covers a lot of things, in this case not a combustion product.
TCP has a flashpoint of 410C (thanks for the reminder of the MSDS for TCP above) so it's going to burn as soon as it reaches the turbine combustion chamber - what comes out the turbine exhaust is not going to be TCP, it's going to be TCP combustion products. How nice they are is good question, but separate from TCP toxicity - this MSDS reckons "carbon oxides (CO, CO2)" which are relatively not so bad.
As to high-performance 2-stroke oils having different ingredients, I couldn't find any information showing expected significant toxicity from even the most elite racing motorcycle oils and no mention of TCP or neurotoxicity from any of them. I'd welcome pointers to any MSDS showing this in any two-stroke land engine oil.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 10:59
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Most bleed air is taken from the compressor stages - this air is not 'burnt' as such but it is damn hot (not sure how hot exactly but I'm sure someone will tell us).
Does anyone know how this would effect the levels of TCP and its by-products? Furthermore, different engines with different oils, bleed air 'tappings' and lubrication systems could all influence the concentration of the nasty chemicals. Has any research been done along these lines?

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Old 20th Apr 2009, 12:39
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Timmy

Old stuff indeed (Jmig) I have fond memories myself of flying in the Tristar on holiday and whilst wearing a blue suit in the Timmy's.

Thing is the MOD were too tight to pay for the full filtration systems in the timmy's, after all what does a rufty tufty grunt need with clear air!

Result particularly if flying to the South Atlantic 2 x 8 1/2 legs was evrybody on board ended up with what was nicknamed as South Atlantic flu. This normally knocked everyone out for 3 or 4 days in the first week, less if you were lucky!

It wasn't just germs causing this syndrome either!

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Old 20th Apr 2009, 20:28
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Made me wonder if the exhaust fumes produced by two stroke engines (petrol/oil mixture) contain TCP's?
I'm not sure about two-strokes, but in modern motor oils designed for four-stroke engines in vehicles with emissions controls, TCP is no longer likely to be part of the anti-wear additive package.

The culprit is the phosphate from combusted tricresyl phosphate, which will poison the substrate of the catalytic converter.

This is also the reason for the removal from automotive motor oils of the (frankly excellent) anti-wear additive ZDDP, zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate. Not catalyst safe. Especially not with today's physically small catalysts which have relatively little margin of degradation of function. Palladium and platinum are quite expensive.

Jet engine oils don't have the design constraint of a catalytic converter on the back end (imagine!). And given the very high acquisition and replacement costs of aeroturbines, it's reasonable that lubrication engineers would strive to reduce wear by all available means.

Regrettably, although the choice of TCP as an additive made sense from a purely mechanical perspective, it may not have been for the best from a health perspective, as is now becoming clear from the medical research.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 09:41
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When we used to buy Mobil Jet 2 in the nineties it came with a small white label on each 44 gallon drum that listed all of the ingredients. The last line always concerned me

ingredients partially unknown
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