"Hero" pilot's pay cut, pension stopped
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So forgive me for saying that I find all this a tad far streched to claim that fat salaries would turn all of us into potential Sully's.
My understanding is that he did not claim a fat paypacket would make an individual a better pilot; either at a given moment or over time. By striving for better t's and c's he was hoping to recruit and retain the quality individuals who have helped to make and keep the skies as safe as they have now become. There's a difference. I'm pretty sure Sully did not deadstick for a bankers bonus - but the passengers of Flight 1549 may have been lucky that he was there and not pursuing a more lucrative (or less demeaning!) paypacket.
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Sully spoke eloquently for all of us.
Personally, I think that anyone who today spends £50 - £100,000 for an ATPL with no guarantee of a job afterwards, has proved him/herself psychologically unfit to be a pilot (although I fully understand the enthusiasm).
The problem is the Great British Public has been convinced that it's possible to buy a £2 air ticket.
Personally, I think that anyone who today spends £50 - £100,000 for an ATPL with no guarantee of a job afterwards, has proved him/herself psychologically unfit to be a pilot (although I fully understand the enthusiasm).
The problem is the Great British Public has been convinced that it's possible to buy a £2 air ticket.
Old ways were best for everyone
Old ways were best for everyone. 3 or 4 engines. 3 person flight crew. No mobile phones or huge cabin luggage in cabin. Reasonable fares and paper tickets from a real ticket office. Excellent pay and pensions for flight crew and good pay and pensions for cabin crew. Company made a reasonable profit. It is distressing that such a perfect situation could disappear. Why couldn't everyone keep doing things correctly, instead of changing for the worse? 
This is the face of "progress":
Deconstructing the Cult of Sully -- More than a Hero, - a Holdover
Adam Hanft
Posted February 11, 2009 | 03:30 PM (EST)
Deconstructing the Cult of Sully -- More than a Hero, - a Holdover
Adam Hanft
Posted February 11, 2009 | 03:30 PM (EST)
I'm watching Chesley Sullenberger and his crew on "Sixty Minutes" and I'm thinking that the five of them represent everything that our society is losing.
I'm thinking that their national deification, warranted as it is, also tells us about a deep loss at the center of our soul.
When we look at them, we see the grace of experience, and the burden of responsibility. We see a kind of unironic dedication that's leaching out of our lives every day. And their apotheosis - the Inaugural and Super Bowl recognition -- is a sign we are mourning that slow drip.
Who cannot find a metaphor in the example of a pilot who refuses to leave his sinking plane until he checks the cabin two times to make sure no passengers are left?
Compare that to the pilots of our largest financial institutions who -- bonuses protected and dry -- leave their sinking ships without looking over their shoulders at the thousands they've left to drown.
Both Chesley Sullenberger and Vikram Pandit (substitute Dick Fuld or John Mack or your failed pilot of choice) had to deal with what Nicholas Taleb has called a black swan event: something rare and unexpected.
How do you deal with it is a matter of instinct, training and humbleness.
In her Sixty Minutes report, Katie Couric -- with her carefully calibrated blend of purring innocence and sheathed ginsu-knife potential -- pointed out that combined experience of the crew was over 100 years.
But that's not the way we are operating any more. Every day, more and more organizations are hollowing out -- moving past, and marginalizing their Sullys. Anything can be outsourced, a quick study can come in and figure it all out in a couple of days, anyone who actually reads the manual is a schmuck headed nowhere, fast.
So we find young people who are rattling around in big companies, adrift. They used to be able to find someone stuck in an office somewhere who knew the company, someone who knew how to land a problem when the engines die.
But they're lucky to find someone who has twenty minutes more experience than they do.
Pride in duration and respect for sequence isn't just non-respected, it's mocked. I hear it all the time (often from myself): "Can't we just skip the process and cut to the chase." Or that ultimate slam: "He's a real process person."
But guess what? It was process that saved those 155 people: The mindless routinization of airline speak, the drone of the repeated safety drills, the pilot's authoritative but emotionless messages from the cockpit, especially the epically parodied "put your seatbacks and tray tables in the upright position."
We have come to believe our own PR, that we're smart enough to skip the required courses and succeed based on our own genetic gifts...
So while we're jetting around the world to change the world, these dreary-dull creatures of habit are happy doing the same drill every single day.
But suddenly it's all changed. The heroes who get the standing ovations are the Process People. Saving Flight 1549 was only possible because the crew was trained and trained and trained again, until they reached the point when experience becomes reaction.
But we exult in our culture of the amateur. Everyone knows as much as everyone else. There are no mysteries to be wrestled into comprehension. A blogger can replace a sharpened journalist. Spend fifteen minutes on the Internet and you can diagnose your friend's medical problem better than the internist who wasted 10 years of his life in case there's a black swan lurking in his blood count.
And if Malcom Gladwell tells us it's true, we must be right. We're all gifted with a Blink response that lets us justify the unthinking wisdom of the gut. Consideration, discipline, shutting out the noise to focus on the decision --- why, how old-school.
Well, autopilot is great, financial models and smarty-pants algorithms are great, too. But when that flock of black swans gets swallowed up by your engine, you need someone to land the plane who didn't learn it on emergencylanding.com.
I'm thinking that their national deification, warranted as it is, also tells us about a deep loss at the center of our soul.
When we look at them, we see the grace of experience, and the burden of responsibility. We see a kind of unironic dedication that's leaching out of our lives every day. And their apotheosis - the Inaugural and Super Bowl recognition -- is a sign we are mourning that slow drip.
Who cannot find a metaphor in the example of a pilot who refuses to leave his sinking plane until he checks the cabin two times to make sure no passengers are left?
Compare that to the pilots of our largest financial institutions who -- bonuses protected and dry -- leave their sinking ships without looking over their shoulders at the thousands they've left to drown.
Both Chesley Sullenberger and Vikram Pandit (substitute Dick Fuld or John Mack or your failed pilot of choice) had to deal with what Nicholas Taleb has called a black swan event: something rare and unexpected.
How do you deal with it is a matter of instinct, training and humbleness.
In her Sixty Minutes report, Katie Couric -- with her carefully calibrated blend of purring innocence and sheathed ginsu-knife potential -- pointed out that combined experience of the crew was over 100 years.
But that's not the way we are operating any more. Every day, more and more organizations are hollowing out -- moving past, and marginalizing their Sullys. Anything can be outsourced, a quick study can come in and figure it all out in a couple of days, anyone who actually reads the manual is a schmuck headed nowhere, fast.
So we find young people who are rattling around in big companies, adrift. They used to be able to find someone stuck in an office somewhere who knew the company, someone who knew how to land a problem when the engines die.
But they're lucky to find someone who has twenty minutes more experience than they do.
Pride in duration and respect for sequence isn't just non-respected, it's mocked. I hear it all the time (often from myself): "Can't we just skip the process and cut to the chase." Or that ultimate slam: "He's a real process person."
But guess what? It was process that saved those 155 people: The mindless routinization of airline speak, the drone of the repeated safety drills, the pilot's authoritative but emotionless messages from the cockpit, especially the epically parodied "put your seatbacks and tray tables in the upright position."
We have come to believe our own PR, that we're smart enough to skip the required courses and succeed based on our own genetic gifts...
So while we're jetting around the world to change the world, these dreary-dull creatures of habit are happy doing the same drill every single day.
But suddenly it's all changed. The heroes who get the standing ovations are the Process People. Saving Flight 1549 was only possible because the crew was trained and trained and trained again, until they reached the point when experience becomes reaction.
But we exult in our culture of the amateur. Everyone knows as much as everyone else. There are no mysteries to be wrestled into comprehension. A blogger can replace a sharpened journalist. Spend fifteen minutes on the Internet and you can diagnose your friend's medical problem better than the internist who wasted 10 years of his life in case there's a black swan lurking in his blood count.
And if Malcom Gladwell tells us it's true, we must be right. We're all gifted with a Blink response that lets us justify the unthinking wisdom of the gut. Consideration, discipline, shutting out the noise to focus on the decision --- why, how old-school.
Well, autopilot is great, financial models and smarty-pants algorithms are great, too. But when that flock of black swans gets swallowed up by your engine, you need someone to land the plane who didn't learn it on emergencylanding.com.
Last edited by PJ2; 28th Feb 2009 at 01:36.
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Sorry fellah, I think you missed the subtle point Capt Sullenberger was making...
My understanding is that he did not claim a fat paypacket would make an individual a better pilot; either at a given moment or over time. By striving for better t's and c's he was hoping to recruit and retain the quality individuals who have helped to make and keep the skies as safe as they have now become. There's a difference. I'm pretty sure Sully did not deadstick for a bankers bonus - but the passengers of Flight 1549 may have been lucky that he was there and not pursuing a more lucrative (or less demeaning!) paypacket.
My understanding is that he did not claim a fat paypacket would make an individual a better pilot; either at a given moment or over time. By striving for better t's and c's he was hoping to recruit and retain the quality individuals who have helped to make and keep the skies as safe as they have now become. There's a difference. I'm pretty sure Sully did not deadstick for a bankers bonus - but the passengers of Flight 1549 may have been lucky that he was there and not pursuing a more lucrative (or less demeaning!) paypacket.
First : Have good or better pay packages attracted the brightest in the past ?? I fear not. I have been flying for a major for 22 years now and let me tell you I have been given the opportunity to fly with some amazingly inadaquate morons of which there is a never ending supply.
Airline safety has increased tremendously in the last 40 years and like it or not............mainly because aircrafts have become safer. Sure, CRM and all have played a part. But the bare fact remains, Main cause of accidents is ..........human and speaking of pay package / skills, maybe we could remember this DHL crew who got hit by a rocket over Bagdad and learned a whole new way to fly while those bastards on the ground were looking for a second shot. Sure, there were no pax and they didn't get caught live on tv.
I don't think the DHL pay package was all that shiny.
Last but not least let me ask again how many Sully's are there among us ??? I will certainly not be arrogant enough to claim I am one.........despite my good pay package.
You find out the day it happens and I am really not all that curious to find out.
Gone are the days were pilots were flying a very small group of well off's. We can lament all we like this isn't going to change a thing and the truck load of pilots thrown out on the street isn't going to help us get better conditions. Those of us who keep their jobs will be lucky.
Has the banking system attracted the best and brightest despite their huge pay package ??? Think not.
Do NASA astronauts bring home an insane amount of money ?? Think not.
I admire Sully precisely for that. The guy does his thing no matter what and yes his pax can be thankfull he wasn't the head of Lehman and vice versa.
If you look around you have, Thank God, a lot of Sully's around, in the Police force, fire department, emergency wards who do their very best day in and day out most of the time with a crappy package and this is what holds this place together..........for now.
What will this profession be in 20 years, your guess is as good as mine but I still see young bright and able people who would right now give their left nut to get in the right hand seat of an airliner. Try to talk them out of it it's nogo.
I was just llike that.............exept for the bright and able.
Last edited by Me Myself; 28th Feb 2009 at 14:41.
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As has been said previously, experience cannot be bought. I wanted to be a shiny jet captain when I felt comfortable with my lack of knowledge in aviation. Of course, we all know the answers to the questions and perform to acceptable levels in the sims, but that does not mean we know everything, and that is what worried me........what if? An old FE once told me always ask yourself 'what if' before and not 'what now' after! A piece of advice that has been with me ever since.
Well, I have attained my goals and am now at the low end of the totem pole, Capt on a large shinny jet! It took me almost 15 years to make it. 15 years of flying all over the world, with all kinds of people, all kinds of weather and various types of aircraft. A well rounded package I think.
Was it worth it? Yes and no. I love the pre-flight preparation, the take off climb, the descent and landing, about 1 or 2 hours per flight. I hate the rest period before, the cruise (6,7, or 8 hrs), the all night flights, the uncertainty of the next paycheck, the worry of the family etc.......the pros and cons can go on for ever.
Sully represents what we all dream or hope of. What youngsters think we are made of, what the public used to think we were made of. Being able to go from point A to point B. Handle any situation with efficiency and experience, and finally, bring everybody home safely. He did what he is paid for (Exceedingly well may I add), I just hope I will be able to be as successfull as he was, if ever I have the unfortunate experience of being in his situation.
So for all you people saying that buying a rating and passing the tests is good enough, you are very wrong. The problem is when you have a 2000 TT Captain, with a few hundred pax with sudden problems that are not in the training syllabus or out of the box. That is the difference, experience! You can rant and rave as much as you want, you cannot replace experience with money or will power.
With experienced Capt leaving or wanting to leave the industry (Yes I am one of them) they are replaced with bright and intelligent people that have relatively little experience. Automation has reversed the curve, there are less hull losses, but there would be even less hull losses if experienced Capts were retained........better pay and a little more respect would be a good start!
I can ony hope that the future generations of 'pilots' will have even more automation than now for the benefit of the travelling public. For the yougnsters wanting to be pilots now, I can only say go fly real aircraft in the real world before going to the shinny new jets where bean counters will dictate what you do. Nothing beats 2000 hours of bush flying to hone your survival skills, explore your abilities and to set your limits. Fortunately, with my company, we can still fly the aircraft as we see fit. (Always following SOP's of course) It is a great feeling to fly to minimums manually in 'bad' weather and at max weigths!
Ah aviation......a daydream and nightmare all rolled into one! Just my opinions gents, Keep the blue side up and godspeed to all
Well, I have attained my goals and am now at the low end of the totem pole, Capt on a large shinny jet! It took me almost 15 years to make it. 15 years of flying all over the world, with all kinds of people, all kinds of weather and various types of aircraft. A well rounded package I think.
Was it worth it? Yes and no. I love the pre-flight preparation, the take off climb, the descent and landing, about 1 or 2 hours per flight. I hate the rest period before, the cruise (6,7, or 8 hrs), the all night flights, the uncertainty of the next paycheck, the worry of the family etc.......the pros and cons can go on for ever.
Sully represents what we all dream or hope of. What youngsters think we are made of, what the public used to think we were made of. Being able to go from point A to point B. Handle any situation with efficiency and experience, and finally, bring everybody home safely. He did what he is paid for (Exceedingly well may I add), I just hope I will be able to be as successfull as he was, if ever I have the unfortunate experience of being in his situation.
So for all you people saying that buying a rating and passing the tests is good enough, you are very wrong. The problem is when you have a 2000 TT Captain, with a few hundred pax with sudden problems that are not in the training syllabus or out of the box. That is the difference, experience! You can rant and rave as much as you want, you cannot replace experience with money or will power.
With experienced Capt leaving or wanting to leave the industry (Yes I am one of them) they are replaced with bright and intelligent people that have relatively little experience. Automation has reversed the curve, there are less hull losses, but there would be even less hull losses if experienced Capts were retained........better pay and a little more respect would be a good start!
I can ony hope that the future generations of 'pilots' will have even more automation than now for the benefit of the travelling public. For the yougnsters wanting to be pilots now, I can only say go fly real aircraft in the real world before going to the shinny new jets where bean counters will dictate what you do. Nothing beats 2000 hours of bush flying to hone your survival skills, explore your abilities and to set your limits. Fortunately, with my company, we can still fly the aircraft as we see fit. (Always following SOP's of course) It is a great feeling to fly to minimums manually in 'bad' weather and at max weigths!
Ah aviation......a daydream and nightmare all rolled into one! Just my opinions gents, Keep the blue side up and godspeed to all
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The problem (in the UK at any rate) is that for the last half-dozen years or so, aviation strategy and policy - and therefore flight safety - has been driven by the O'Learys and accountants of this world. Those coming up for pilot training, selected or otherwise, are picked not because they are the best potential pilots of their generation, but because their dads can afford the cost of training. The O'Learys think of another way of offloading cost onto pilots, and the dear old CAA/JAA just agrees. They are adopting the 'light touch' method of regulation - the same method used by the financial authorities to oversee the banking business these last ten years, and I don't hear anyone praising the banks any more.
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Marine Commanders were esteemed. In 1919 Air Transport Commanders were aligned with them - could logically have been aligned with omnibus drivers. In 1950s, Marine, in 1970s, Air Transport became a high-volume commodity (see Cross-Channel steam packet, an elite cruise experience, becoming cattle-truck; see Southwest, Laker Skytrain: "coach"). More Command slots, less esteem. Bus drivers seeking esteem become private chauffeurs. Call NetJets: there are more bizjet Commands today than jetliner P1/P2 in the 1970s. What you can't have is lots of high-priced berths, 'cos the common carrier can't sell the tickets to pay for them. See MaxJet &tc.
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Me Myself..
Indie cent seems fairly justified in his reasoning.
You mention that in the past the good salary did not stop morons getting into aviation, I agree. But aviation has changed and is not the same as it was some 20 + years ago. A poor salary package will most definitely not bring in or retain the best and brightest.
I think you are mixing up the issue by bringing in examples of government jobs, such as fire fighters, police force etc. I think everybody would agree that they should get paid more for what they endure much of the time, but such organisations are not commercial entities. The same can be said of NASA - the pay is not bad, but not astronomical, $70-100K ish (excuse the pun).
I will disagree with you regarding the DHL example, purely because the crew was fairly experienced and if I remember correctly came from a military back ground. The training and experience was already there, they had been in aviation a long while and were/ are relatively well paid. The issue was eroding the Ts and Cs, how long can you squeeze these before guys and girls start to say its not worth it.
Having said that, I don’t doubt that talented individuals want to join the profession, but how long will they stay ? Many newbies don’t know what a commercial job is really like. How long will it continue to attract the numbers it does now ? I think there are limits to how much they will wish to effectively subsidise ticket prices. Perceptions are still very much stuck some years ago.
Indie cent seems fairly justified in his reasoning.
You mention that in the past the good salary did not stop morons getting into aviation, I agree. But aviation has changed and is not the same as it was some 20 + years ago. A poor salary package will most definitely not bring in or retain the best and brightest.
I think you are mixing up the issue by bringing in examples of government jobs, such as fire fighters, police force etc. I think everybody would agree that they should get paid more for what they endure much of the time, but such organisations are not commercial entities. The same can be said of NASA - the pay is not bad, but not astronomical, $70-100K ish (excuse the pun).
I will disagree with you regarding the DHL example, purely because the crew was fairly experienced and if I remember correctly came from a military back ground. The training and experience was already there, they had been in aviation a long while and were/ are relatively well paid. The issue was eroding the Ts and Cs, how long can you squeeze these before guys and girls start to say its not worth it.
Having said that, I don’t doubt that talented individuals want to join the profession, but how long will they stay ? Many newbies don’t know what a commercial job is really like. How long will it continue to attract the numbers it does now ? I think there are limits to how much they will wish to effectively subsidise ticket prices. Perceptions are still very much stuck some years ago.
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Having said that, I don’t doubt that talented individuals want to join the profession, but how long will they stay ? Many newbies don’t know what a commercial job is really like. How long will it continue to attract the numbers it does now ? I think there are limits to how much they will wish to effectively subsidise ticket prices. Perceptions are still very much stuck some years ago.
If Sully had crashed, well it wouldn't have been a big deal in the end ( according to bean counters ). One would have come up with a lame explanation along the following lines " it could happen one in a trillion " and everyone would have moved on. I know it sounds very cynical but it's the truth.
It is just history at work and nothing can be done and that's why a.....s like O'Leary will have no trouble finding jokeys to fly their airplanes with the perk of treating them like dung.
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Sully's piloting skill resulted in what can only be called a perfect outcome.
This occured AFTER sully lost 40% of his salary.
Therefore, why would you be so silly as to pay Sully more money. This event shows that reduced salary and piloting skill are not connected.
This occured AFTER sully lost 40% of his salary.
Therefore, why would you be so silly as to pay Sully more money. This event shows that reduced salary and piloting skill are not connected.
Therefore, why would you be so silly as to pay Sully more money. This event shows that reduced salary and piloting skill are not connected.
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Therein lies the heart of the issue: true piloting skill is viewed as priceless or valueless ("The pilot saved my life, you can't put a price on that!" vs "Pilots love their job so much they'd willingly do it for nothing" type attitudes). Neither extreme is acceptable. So the problem is, has always been, and always will be, determining where between 0 and infinity remuneration sits.
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jshg wrote:
(utopic) solution for this problem would be a mandatory obligation for a contracting airline to provide free of charge type-ratings with no contractual strings attached. If the newcomer has it, it wouldn't matter, same process as newbies much like a refreshment course.
outcome: only the most motivated and best qualified would be accepted for the TR courses.
I know, not possible and all that jazz...
GD&L
Those coming up for pilot training, selected or otherwise, are picked not because they are the best potential pilots of their generation, but because their dads can afford the cost of training.
outcome: only the most motivated and best qualified would be accepted for the TR courses.
I know, not possible and all that jazz...
GD&L
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Its all gone to Rat****
Feel the need to comment further here!There is definitely a negative attitude to "Handling Pilots" in this Industry .It has been going on for some time,and stems from the Manufacturers/Airlines demanding and making more and more technically advanced automated systems that no longer require Human intervention.A mate of mine ,Ex Capt 737,was P1,as F/O, on the approach to HK in a 747-200,when he asked the Capt,if he could fly in manual?He was warned that any problem he would be for Swords and Medals with the Fleet Captain!!Pilots will be automatons hanging up on hooks,and fed into the cockpit, like the Thunderbirds,for legalityfor flight only,after the required rest period.Then locked up for the remainder of the flight,having brought in their own K rations,if their outfit dont provide!!!Boredom sets in and many will snuggle up in their uncomfortable seat and lean into the sidewindow,falling asleep,until awakened by a knock on the locked door,or their colleague nudging them at appropriate ATC communications.Then the stress of the descent profile is removed ,because it is done for them by the Nav and FMS systems.What more to do ,ah yes land it!!!No ,we now dont do that either ,as we have to prove the Autoland,unless the Captain is out of 28 days,so the arrival is firm.All these Computers have NO Wife,Children,or Grandchildren,Mortgage,Mistress,and Large Yellow streak firmly developed by years of experience in Manually Operated aeroplanes,which gives you a Sixth Sense and Anticipation.Having accomplished forced landings without terrible mishap in over 42 years,Self Preservation takes charge with a shot of adrenalin.In my experience there is be NO thought of what dire consequences there would be If the aircraft were to impact here or there????What kicks in is Training- a condensed image of the 5 Ss,and the 7 Ps,and maybe high key/low key if you have time to replan the impact.Size,Shape,Surroundings,Slope,Surface.The Hudson hit all the right buttons,and the impact would be softer than terra firma.You dont actually have time to think further than a super quick reaction after the 5 Ss consideration-"Fxxk me we are going to get in there!!"The 7 Ps ,you may not even get around to,unless the emergency began a lot earlier and then check lists are the order of the day,but for the uninitiated they are(And bloody Brownes mob should learn this and digest it!!)Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.All these 3rd level and beyond Airliners are removing the Noble Art of Aviating,and putting Xbox Aces in your place.Salaries are now back nearly 10 years ,and with Money Purchase Pensions replacing the long established Final Salary,what is this once proud Industry heading for?
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hat is this once proud Industry heading for?
Fellows, you keep lamenting over something that is done and over with. Capicce ??
Once upon a time there were steam engines and people were using candles at homes.
I am not liking anymore than you do but this industry as we used to know it is gone. Technology has made us almost useless and no we are not treated like royalties anymore. Question is, did we ever deserve to be ??? When I think of the fruitcakes I've had to fly with I hardly think so.
Bite the bullet until you pack up your pension..........if you're lucky to have one. For the rest try to get the wannabees out of this mad house............if you can.
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Me Myself, "Technology has made us almost useless-"
and from the crashes happening lateley due to technology going wrong it unfortunateley seems your right! Unhappy pilots do not make for good workers the industry has to get the balance right. I hope I don't have to pay a £1 when I come out the flightdeck for a waz, either way pay a £1 or hold-on concentration may be affected whilst technology does its stuff! Hope you get the point.
and from the crashes happening lateley due to technology going wrong it unfortunateley seems your right! Unhappy pilots do not make for good workers the industry has to get the balance right. I hope I don't have to pay a £1 when I come out the flightdeck for a waz, either way pay a £1 or hold-on concentration may be affected whilst technology does its stuff! Hope you get the point.