UAL refusing to takeoff at Logan due to ship
limpleak
you should really consider shutting up
this is primarily a site for industry professionals who know what they're talking about; or NON-professionals who want to learn about aviation
You look a a complete fool; you don't know what you are talking about, and I personally find you presence on this thread insulting---this is not the ground where you can just make up nonsense in your head and believe yourself---Get off of that MSFS---you'll go blind!!!
lately on Pprune it seems we've been enduring the 'Bewitching Hour'
Lester
you should really consider shutting up
this is primarily a site for industry professionals who know what they're talking about; or NON-professionals who want to learn about aviation
You look a a complete fool; you don't know what you are talking about, and I personally find you presence on this thread insulting---this is not the ground where you can just make up nonsense in your head and believe yourself---Get off of that MSFS---you'll go blind!!!
lately on Pprune it seems we've been enduring the 'Bewitching Hour'
Lester
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 24th Feb 2009 at 17:48.
BTW, do you know how much they clearance they should have had over that ship?
Mutt
Mutt
a. within the airport boundaries by at least 35 feet vertically or at least 200' horizontally
b. After passing the airport boundaries by at least 300' horizontally...
that's what I can think of off the top of my head
perhaps I'll let the passengers expain to you
How much of a reduction is permissible to the OEI gross flight path and what reductions are made therein for 4,3 and 2 engined jet airliners, respectively, in the determination of the NTOFP,...and how it is constructed and matched to the specific obstacles,...?
Then the flite simmer ,..will teach you how using the clearway [of couse he knows what is the %age of Max TORA is allowed in determining the TODA using declared clearway] can increase Max RWY weight in an unbalanced scenario, if the operator so wishes...hey why not ? I wanna know what happens to BF when the stopway to the ASD to creat the EMD and is that EMD predicated on VMBE?
Then the interested spotter can explain to you reduced thrust calculations:
Because Mutt I know you of all folks here need a steep performance tutorial
before you can debate the expertsLester
Mutt,
Re: 75% I think he was attempting to explian in a simple and congenial way how severe the thrust loss can be OEI and that tough requirements have to be met and guesses aren't allowed.
...but the passenger was just too smart for himPA
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 30th Mar 2009 at 19:42. Reason: bold and to change AEO to OEI
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refusing take off
"The POINT of this thread was that the crew of the aircraft in question did all the fancy math for the flight, loaded fuel, passengers in the back, baggage, freight, food, flight plan, and the other complicated stuff.""
Then they pushed back and started the engines......
Then asked "Any tall ships?"
Then they stopped and shut down and re-did all the fancy math.
The tall ships question should have come before the loading pax, freight, fuel, etc.
That is MY point."
UAL crews do not do the fancy math as you stated. On the Airbus all data for cargo compartments, pax on board, and CG come from central load planning which is sent by ACARS to aircraft. Then just add ZFW to current fuel load to get TOGW.
On taxi out, we usually ask if there are any ships in the channel off the departure end.
Take off data is based on NO ships in the channel. Otherwise, another set of data is required and sometimes BOS-SFO flights would be too heavy with a ship in the channel to be legal to depart.
Then they pushed back and started the engines......
Then asked "Any tall ships?"
Then they stopped and shut down and re-did all the fancy math.
The tall ships question should have come before the loading pax, freight, fuel, etc.
That is MY point."
UAL crews do not do the fancy math as you stated. On the Airbus all data for cargo compartments, pax on board, and CG come from central load planning which is sent by ACARS to aircraft. Then just add ZFW to current fuel load to get TOGW.
On taxi out, we usually ask if there are any ships in the channel off the departure end.
Take off data is based on NO ships in the channel. Otherwise, another set of data is required and sometimes BOS-SFO flights would be too heavy with a ship in the channel to be legal to depart.
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Pugilistic Animus.... welcome back........
Dani, I'm curious, when did you last do a VFR departure for obstacle clearance followed by a normal IFR flight in a passenger airliner? If you have done one, kindly advise me of the airline company so i can make sure my loved ones never fly on them!
We operate under FAR121 and utilize the complete width of the ICAO takeoff splay for all weather conditions, we also go a step further and factor in winds, the splay therefore becomes extremely large and even more so in a turn. We never permit lower standards in order to obtain a higher takeoff weight and we would never expect a pilot to "turn visually to avoid the obstacle", because quite frankly he is wasting his time!.
Now as far as UAL goes, i believe that the information given to your about ACARS should really close the subject....
Mutt
Dani, I'm curious, when did you last do a VFR departure for obstacle clearance followed by a normal IFR flight in a passenger airliner? If you have done one, kindly advise me of the airline company so i can make sure my loved ones never fly on them!
We operate under FAR121 and utilize the complete width of the ICAO takeoff splay for all weather conditions, we also go a step further and factor in winds, the splay therefore becomes extremely large and even more so in a turn. We never permit lower standards in order to obtain a higher takeoff weight and we would never expect a pilot to "turn visually to avoid the obstacle", because quite frankly he is wasting his time!.
Now as far as UAL goes, i believe that the information given to your about ACARS should really close the subject....
Mutt
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I agree Mutt.
Some are really lost here.
Surprised this one carried on so long.
Visually turn to avoid the obstacle, where is this written, or a better question which airline is promoting this crap if any at all ?
Some are really lost here.
Surprised this one carried on so long.
Visually turn to avoid the obstacle, where is this written, or a better question which airline is promoting this crap if any at all ?
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I agree that you shouldn't (always) follow the herd but if all great aviators that day took off except him, I'm not sure... He was correct and everybody else was endangering their flight? Pretty heavy allegation to all these pilots that day!
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Mutt, I just did 2 today! BTW every US Major does them everyday here in ZRH/LSZH. I'm pretty sure that you also have some of them in the States but you're too sure about yourself that you cannot recall!
The fact that the UAL pilot performed his take off in the end (without the ship left its harbour i presume) is a proof that it was ok/legal/operational wise/not dangerous/a victory of common sense (tick if applicable). Since it was one of the above, he was missing some important information before his final decision. Maybe that you could avoid the obstacle visually?
I'm not sure if you still know how you calculate TO performance, but before you just clicked on PC programs, you had runway tables with obstacle lists. The list consists of all limiting obstacles with the related distance. If you have that knowledge you can very easily determine if and what obstacle is limiting. (I had a look at a satelite picture of Logan airport and I assume that the boat anchored in the harbour opposite the parallel runways about half a mile away from the runway end.)
Be it as it is, yes, DC-ATE, I don't know anything about the actual case. I'm merely stating that I'm sooo glad I don't have to share the cockpit with one of you guys!
Dani
The fact that the UAL pilot performed his take off in the end (without the ship left its harbour i presume) is a proof that it was ok/legal/operational wise/not dangerous/a victory of common sense (tick if applicable). Since it was one of the above, he was missing some important information before his final decision. Maybe that you could avoid the obstacle visually?
I'm not sure if you still know how you calculate TO performance, but before you just clicked on PC programs, you had runway tables with obstacle lists. The list consists of all limiting obstacles with the related distance. If you have that knowledge you can very easily determine if and what obstacle is limiting. (I had a look at a satelite picture of Logan airport and I assume that the boat anchored in the harbour opposite the parallel runways about half a mile away from the runway end.)
Be it as it is, yes, DC-ATE, I don't know anything about the actual case. I'm merely stating that I'm sooo glad I don't have to share the cockpit with one of you guys!
Dani
Dani
do you mean an [obstacle] departure or a [visual climb over airport]VCOA? those procedures are for AEO only and generally apply to 'low close in obstacles' and they are common in the US but you OEI profile is still carefully engineered:
also, to me it does not really matter if the data is electronic or tabular/graphical etc...I just want the numbers so I can go fly--same answers--[usually]
PA
do you mean an [obstacle] departure or a [visual climb over airport]VCOA? those procedures are for AEO only and generally apply to 'low close in obstacles' and they are common in the US but you OEI profile is still carefully engineered:
also, to me it does not really matter if the data is electronic or tabular/graphical etc...I just want the numbers so I can go fly--same answers--[usually]
PA
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but you're too sure about yourself that you cannot recall
Mutt
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Whatever else it has been, is, or may become to the chagrin of some pro' fliers here, this thread is very interesting and informative to a private flier like me; great stuff
Just waiting for the answer to mutt's last question now...
Just waiting for the answer to mutt's last question now...
