UAL refusing to takeoff at Logan due to ship
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Surely this is pretty straight foward? A factor comprimised the safe operation of the aircraft, and until confirmation as to the position, movement and height of the ship was received, the pilot held position on the runway.
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Yes, a total non-event.
[QUOTE][Surely this is pretty straight foward? A factor comprimised the safe operation of the aircraft, and until confirmation as to the position, movement and height of the ship was received, the pilot held position on the runway./QUOTE]
I now see I was wrong.
Oh well,
I now see I was wrong.
Oh well,
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Limp Leek
On a 747 LOW FLYBY thread you write
But here a perfectly safe and reasonable option by the United crew.......
You do not sound like you are involved in aviation except for listening at the fence...
On a 747 LOW FLYBY thread you write
I agree!
and how unusual and wrong for that aircraft type to be in that situation!
Oh well, boys will be boys I suppose.
and how unusual and wrong for that aircraft type to be in that situation!
Oh well, boys will be boys I suppose.
But here a perfectly safe and reasonable option by the United crew.......
You do not sound like you are involved in aviation except for listening at the fence...
Have toolbox, will travel
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FAA Digital Charts
Here is a link to FAA's digital charts..
http://www.avn.faa.gov/digital_tpp.a...end=12-18-2008
Please note these are domestic charts, no international. If anyone has any links to international charts, please send me a pm.
http://www.avn.faa.gov/digital_tpp.a...end=12-18-2008
Please note these are domestic charts, no international. If anyone has any links to international charts, please send me a pm.
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There are certainly performance issues for take off and go around at Boston with ships in the vicinity of the airport. I am required to ask of tower if ships are reported if I am departing certain runways.
I think if you were not the crew or dispatcher of that flight, you cannot make any qualified remarks about that particular flight's issues. I make sure my flights are always safe; making sure they are legal is also my job! I chose to delay take off ex DFW a few months ago due convective wx very close to departure end of runway. I watched one or two others depart with no excitement, but many also chose to wait. All in all a very subjective subject.....but sometimes there are compelling reasons for doing, or not doing something. Take offs are optional, landings are mandatory.....
OH
I think if you were not the crew or dispatcher of that flight, you cannot make any qualified remarks about that particular flight's issues. I make sure my flights are always safe; making sure they are legal is also my job! I chose to delay take off ex DFW a few months ago due convective wx very close to departure end of runway. I watched one or two others depart with no excitement, but many also chose to wait. All in all a very subjective subject.....but sometimes there are compelling reasons for doing, or not doing something. Take offs are optional, landings are mandatory.....
OH
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Oilhead -
That is so comforting to read. If more pilots would do the same, we wouldn't have "weather-realted" accidents. Yes, that's what they say; "weather-related", but they're actually pilot-induced. I've gone over a hundred miles off course to avoid weather that I observed other pilots go right through. Am, or was I, chicken? You bet I was.
I chose to delay take off ex DFW a few months ago due convective wx very close to departure end of runway. I watched one or two others depart with no excitement, but many also chose to wait.
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Free Approach Charts!
Hi DC,
Did you know you can download (or even just view) ALL U.S. Terminal Diagrams and Approach Plates free online on the FAA website? Just Google "Digital Terminal Procedures" and you'll be up-to-date!
Did you know you can download (or even just view) ALL U.S. Terminal Diagrams and Approach Plates free online on the FAA website? Just Google "Digital Terminal Procedures" and you'll be up-to-date!
I can confirm that we have three lots of data for no ships, medium and large ones. 27 is the shortest RW we can use at BOS and the difference between no obstacles and the tallest ones is very significant in terms of limiting weights, engine thrust settings, flap and speeds.
If your takeoff performance was worked out for a clear shipping channel you could easily end up overweight or in the wrong configuration for the appropriate clearance if a tall ship was in your takeoff path.
If your takeoff performance was worked out for a clear shipping channel you could easily end up overweight or in the wrong configuration for the appropriate clearance if a tall ship was in your takeoff path.
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The UAL crew should be commended for following the procedures contained in their flight ops manual... especially if they had Fred T. Rukus from the FAA on the jump seat.
.. or even if he was not on the jump seat.
.. or even if he was not on the jump seat.
You really should, because if the UAL Crew "did it right" then all the others did not.
One crew was (sic) "professional" and all the other crews were not!
One crew was (sic) "professional" and all the other crews were not!
Rubbish. Despite your clever interpretation of the 'tapes' how can you - or ATC - know what each particular aircraft needed by way of airfield and aircraft performance considerations, just because it might be OK for one aircraft to depart, doesn't mean it is either safe or legal for the next one.
This discussion is a waste of time, the guy did what he considered was in the best interests of all involved at the time - which includes protecting his own backside. QED Goodnight.
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As I recall, New Orleans had similar considerations for WAT data. Ships in Canal...If the numbers aren't clear for take off data, the park brake is your friend.
The Arm Chair Brigade must need another hobby. How about spotting?
Sheeeeesh!!!!
The Arm Chair Brigade must need another hobby. How about spotting?
Sheeeeesh!!!!
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Unrelated or prissy?
This week a "Swiss" A320 captain cancels a return flight from Tel Aviv when he realizes that his copilot did not have enough TKOF & landings on type (A320 - three month recency) ).
One commentator asks how the copilot got to Tel Aviv in the first place, by train?
In fact the copilot got there in the right seat of an A330 (he had enough TKOF & landings on that type).
For the sake of [real] Flight Safety, are some loosing common sense and becoming politically correct?
20minutes.ch - Vol de Swiss annulé: le copilote n avait pas son permis en règle - Monde
Vol de Swiss annulé: le copilote n'avait pas son permis en règle
Les passagers du vol Swiss LX 257 de Tel Aviv à Zurich ont été contraints de quitter l'appareil. La licence du copilote n'était pas en règle.
Au lieu de voler avec un A330...
....le copilote s'est retrouvé sur un A320, pour lequel sa licence n'était pas en règle. (Photo: Keystone)Aéroport Ben Gurion, Tel Aviv, mardi matin: 5h30.
Les passagers encore mal réveillés à bord de l'Airbus 320, à destination de Zurich, attendent le décollage. Quelle ne fut pas leur surprise, lorsque, au lieu des traditionnelles informations de vol, ils entendent ce message du pilote: «Bonjour, c'est votre capitaine qui vous parle, je vais vous prier de quitter l'appareil, notre copilote n'ayant malheureusement pas le permis de vol adéquat.»
Excuses de Swiss
Comment un tel couac a-t-il pu se produire? «Lors de la vérification de pré-décollage, le capitaine s'est en effet rendu compte de l'erreur», explique le porte-parole de Swiss, Jean-Claude Donzel.
En effet, Swiss vole habituellement à destination de Tel Aviv avec des A330-200 (229 places) plutôt qu'avec des A320 (136 places).
Comme la demande est très faible en ce moment, la compagnie d'aviation s'est résolue lundi à envoyer des avions plus petits en Israël.
Le copilote en question s'était déjà envolé dimanche pour Israël avec un A330. Il possède en fait le permis adéquat, mais n'ayant pas effectué suffisamment de vols à bord de cet appareil au cours des 90 derniers jours, son permis est échu temporairement.
Jean-Claude Donzel ajoute que le cas «va être débattu à l'interne». Il ne peut pour l'instant expliquer qui est responsable du faux-pas mais formule ses excuses auprès de tous les passagers concernés.
Cas extrêmement rare
Le couac aura eu des conséquences désagréables pour les passagers. Ceux-ci ont en effet été transférés sur un vol de la compagnie israélienne El Al, mais vers Genève, et n'ont pu rejoindre Zurich que dans l'après-midi.
Jean-Claude Donzel n'a pas souvenir d'un tel cas depuis 30 ans au moins: «Ce genre de problème est extrêmement rare», estime-t-il.
One commentator asks how the copilot got to Tel Aviv in the first place, by train?
In fact the copilot got there in the right seat of an A330 (he had enough TKOF & landings on that type).
For the sake of [real] Flight Safety, are some loosing common sense and becoming politically correct?
20minutes.ch - Vol de Swiss annulé: le copilote n avait pas son permis en règle - Monde
Vol de Swiss annulé: le copilote n'avait pas son permis en règle
Les passagers du vol Swiss LX 257 de Tel Aviv à Zurich ont été contraints de quitter l'appareil. La licence du copilote n'était pas en règle.
Au lieu de voler avec un A330...
....le copilote s'est retrouvé sur un A320, pour lequel sa licence n'était pas en règle. (Photo: Keystone)Aéroport Ben Gurion, Tel Aviv, mardi matin: 5h30.
Les passagers encore mal réveillés à bord de l'Airbus 320, à destination de Zurich, attendent le décollage. Quelle ne fut pas leur surprise, lorsque, au lieu des traditionnelles informations de vol, ils entendent ce message du pilote: «Bonjour, c'est votre capitaine qui vous parle, je vais vous prier de quitter l'appareil, notre copilote n'ayant malheureusement pas le permis de vol adéquat.»
Excuses de Swiss
Comment un tel couac a-t-il pu se produire? «Lors de la vérification de pré-décollage, le capitaine s'est en effet rendu compte de l'erreur», explique le porte-parole de Swiss, Jean-Claude Donzel.
En effet, Swiss vole habituellement à destination de Tel Aviv avec des A330-200 (229 places) plutôt qu'avec des A320 (136 places).
Comme la demande est très faible en ce moment, la compagnie d'aviation s'est résolue lundi à envoyer des avions plus petits en Israël.
Le copilote en question s'était déjà envolé dimanche pour Israël avec un A330. Il possède en fait le permis adéquat, mais n'ayant pas effectué suffisamment de vols à bord de cet appareil au cours des 90 derniers jours, son permis est échu temporairement.
Jean-Claude Donzel ajoute que le cas «va être débattu à l'interne». Il ne peut pour l'instant expliquer qui est responsable du faux-pas mais formule ses excuses auprès de tous les passagers concernés.
Cas extrêmement rare
Le couac aura eu des conséquences désagréables pour les passagers. Ceux-ci ont en effet été transférés sur un vol de la compagnie israélienne El Al, mais vers Genève, et n'ont pu rejoindre Zurich que dans l'après-midi.
Jean-Claude Donzel n'a pas souvenir d'un tel cas depuis 30 ans au moins: «Ce genre de problème est extrêmement rare», estime-t-il.
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Missing the point.
I do not have anything more to contribute to this thread now the experts have explained how peformance data, etc, ad nausium, affect a departure., except!
The POINT of this thread was that the crew of the aircraft in question did all the fancy math for the flight, loaded fuel, passengers in the back, baggage, freight, food, flight plan, and the other complicated stuff.
Then they pushed back and started the engines......
Then asked "Any tall ships?"
Then they stopped and shut down and re-did all the fancy math.
The tall ships question should have come before the loading pax, freight, fuel, etc.
That is MY point.
The POINT of this thread was that the crew of the aircraft in question did all the fancy math for the flight, loaded fuel, passengers in the back, baggage, freight, food, flight plan, and the other complicated stuff.
Then they pushed back and started the engines......
Then asked "Any tall ships?"
Then they stopped and shut down and re-did all the fancy math.
The tall ships question should have come before the loading pax, freight, fuel, etc.
That is MY point.
FX Guru
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limp - don't you think you're flogging a dead horse here?
You seem to use the words 'experts' in a disparaging manner. These are the people that do the business at the pointy end. They're highly skilled. Listen to them.
Fullwings wrote -
There is one explanation for what happened (remember that ships move. It may not have been there when the pilot did the original math).
But at the end of the day this is all speculation. The important thing is that the plane arrived at its destination and the pax and crew got home safely.
Result.
You seem to use the words 'experts' in a disparaging manner. These are the people that do the business at the pointy end. They're highly skilled. Listen to them.
Fullwings wrote -
If your takeoff performance was worked out for a clear shipping channel you could easily end up overweight or in the wrong configuration for the appropriate clearance if a tall ship was in your takeoff path.
But at the end of the day this is all speculation. The important thing is that the plane arrived at its destination and the pax and crew got home safely.
Result.
I think it should be pointed out to limp that the take off obstacle clearance cone used to calculate the minimum climb gradient required expands at approximately 10 degrees either side of the take off roll start position AND ASSUMES THE CLIMB RATE ACHIEVED AT T/O WEIGHT ON ONE ENGINE AT 75% OF MAX THRUST. Therefore an object that is way off the centerline and looks low can infringe said cone.
But you knew that didn't you.
Until the safe performance of the aircraft was confirmed the crew did exactly the right thing by not taking off.
The fact that they pushed on time in the hope of resolving the issue before reaching the runway makes good commercial sense.
Leave it to the professionals.
But you knew that didn't you.
Until the safe performance of the aircraft was confirmed the crew did exactly the right thing by not taking off.
The fact that they pushed on time in the hope of resolving the issue before reaching the runway makes good commercial sense.
Leave it to the professionals.
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Really LMAO now!
I think it should be pointed out to limp that the take off obstacle clearance cone used to calculate the minimum climb gradient required expands at approximately 10 degrees either side of the take off roll start position AND ASSUMES THE CLIMB RATE ACHIEVED AT T/O WEIGHT ON ONE ENGINE AT 75% OF MAX THRUST. Therefore an object that is way off the centerline and looks low can infringe said cone.
But you knew that didn't you.
Until the safe performance of the aircraft was confirmed the crew did exactly the right thing by not taking off.
The fact that they pushed on time in the hope of resolving the issue before reaching the runway makes good commercial sense.
Leave it to the professionals.
But you knew that didn't you.
Until the safe performance of the aircraft was confirmed the crew did exactly the right thing by not taking off.
The fact that they pushed on time in the hope of resolving the issue before reaching the runway makes good commercial sense.
Leave it to the professionals.
Despite what you think I understand what you say Locked door,
Just read what you posted!
The "ship" did not suddenly sail into the "cone"
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Limp, you really do deserve a medal for persistant failure to learn.
Experts spend their valuable time educating you in real world operations the hope of explaining why your assertions are wrong.
Even the obvious, like that ships can move, seems to go over your head.
Thank God you are not in a position of responsibility for peoples lives.
ppvvmm
Experts spend their valuable time educating you in real world operations the hope of explaining why your assertions are wrong.
Even the obvious, like that ships can move, seems to go over your head.
Thank God you are not in a position of responsibility for peoples lives.
ppvvmm
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Be it as it is - I don't know the facts. I'm on Limp's side. I realize that there are a few stubborn aviators on both side of the big pond. Their thinking is like civil servants and they behave like it. In aviation there is no garantee for nothing, and while they become older (and get into bigger aircraft), they loose the ability of common sense. Kind of senility.
If ATC tells you that the ship isn't in your way, then it most probably isn't. ATC is not your adversary, it's your friend... - and he sits on a higher position than you. I'm also gettin terrible restless at times when I watch such grey-haired aviators. Accident debriefs show that they very early loose the plot, get angry about nothing and finally do the wrong thing.
Terribly generalizing I am, I know...
Dani
If ATC tells you that the ship isn't in your way, then it most probably isn't. ATC is not your adversary, it's your friend... - and he sits on a higher position than you. I'm also gettin terrible restless at times when I watch such grey-haired aviators. Accident debriefs show that they very early loose the plot, get angry about nothing and finally do the wrong thing.
Terribly generalizing I am, I know...
Dani