Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC

[PBY]

1 middle spoiler is controlled by blue hydraulics, but you can also sideslip the aircraft. I have done few double engine failures in the sim and it did feel exactly like a glider. Also, if the engines are still windmilling, you have all 3 hydraulics, but you will loose them as soon as you slow down to about 230 knots, so they would not have it in this case. I have once in the sim even been able to put the autopilot on during the double engine failure, because of the residual windmilling gave me green and yellow hydraulics. The only bad thin is, that you only have slats and no flaps.
But if the real airplane behaves the same way as the sim, than for an ex glider pilot the airplane feels very predictable.

[Roy Bouchier]

Teterboro or Hudson

Teterborough was not an option in reality as neither runway would have allowed a straight in approach. Ther would have benn insufficient height to allow a turn onto finals I would have thought.
(Flew out of both LG and TB many times, I should add)

[lomapaseo]

Do the qualified posters feel that this event (and the recent Ryanair one) require the operators, manufacturers and the regulators, to work together, to amend any previous related SOPs?

Just a thought .

They haven't recovered or examined the engines nor the black boxes yet so we have no idea what the commonality is between these two accidents.

[Intruder]

AOA is'n ot equal to pitch of course...

Pitch ~~ AoA +/- Flight path angle (disregarding any angle of incidence between the wing and fuselage). At the moment of touchdown, late in the flare, when there is little rate of descent, AoA is essentially equal to pitch for practical purposes.

[MadDog Driver]

rageye

As much as I like taking an occasional trip in a glider, it is funny how the glider pilot community can't resist the chance to blow their trompet. They have done the same in my country regarding this accident,and it is ridiculous reading. In 1991 an MD80 lost both engines due to ice and dead sticked to a "landing" in Sweden. All 129 on board survived, and none of the pilots were Glider pilots. Come on now. A pilot of an airliner doesn't need glider experience to know how to fly best glide speed and hit the surface without too much speed,or without stalling!
This was two good professional airline pilots and 3 professional FA's doing their job very very professionally!

[zalt]

WTF??

But even though he has been celebrated as a hero, Sullenberger still faces the prospect of a National Transportation Safety Board investigation that will critique his every action on the day of the flight.

That is one of the reasons, union officials say, why he has stayed quiet as his star has risen.

"Until the NTSB says, 'He's a hero,' he's under investigation," said James Ray, a spokesman for the US Airline Pilots Association. "The NTSB usually discourages people from calling anyone a hero until facts are in."

A national hero but nowhere near the spotlight -- Newsday.com

[barit1]

Lifting a waterlogged plane is a mite delicate. I note WCBS-TV says they have load cells in the lift rig - they lift a foot or two, let that much water drain, then lift a bit more, always keeping the lift forces under control. Lifting too fast will cause the structure to break up, and then they have to start over - this time lifting the separated bits.

Boeing sent their recovery crew to the B-307 ditching (several years ago) in Puget Sound to validate their recovery procedures - and the priceless 307 was then restored (again!) and flown to IAD to the NASM annex there.

[G-CPTN]

Just heard that they've found one of the engines - still attached to the starboard wing . . .

[md80fanatic]

I find it hard to believe that a diver could miss an attached engine, even if that diver were blind.

[ChristiaanJ]

Originally Posted by md80fanatic

I find it hard to believe that a diver could miss an attached engine, even if that diver were blind.

Did you watch any of the videos?
Did you see how much current there is?
Did you read the story about trying to move the Intrepid from years of accumulated sludge?
If yes, you should have realised visibility under such circumstances is not even measured in inches, but in centimetres, and not many of those....

CJ

[birrddog]

The footage of the recovery operation shows considerable ice around where the aircraft is currently "parked".

According to the NTSB press statement at 4pm EST today: "the aircraft weights about 1,000,000 lbs in its current state" and that its right wing was wedged under the sea wall in mud. They are going to "move the aircraft to the left" and gradually lift it 1ft at a time to allow the water to drain. One engine is still attached (they did not state which one). FDR and CVR's not yet retrieved.

NY1, a local television news agency has pretty reasonable coverage

NY1 | 24 Hour Local News | Top Stories | Crews Are Close To Lifting Fallen Jet

[forget]

Just heard that they've found one of the engines - still attached to the starboard wing . . .

I've just heard it on BBC. Anyone like to take a small wager on this being wrong?

[ferrydude]

I'll take the wager. How much?

[Eboy]

Latest on the salvage from the New York Times (generally more reliable than CNN, Fox, etc.):

Divers working to secure the plane, an Airbus A320, with rigging in preparation for its removal from the water discovered that its right engine was still attached to the submerged wing. Investigators initially thought both engines were sheared off on impact, as divers were fooled by the dark mud and murky waters that surrounded the submerged right wing.

The latest plan called for lifting the plane a foot or so at a time so water can drain; if it does not do so on its own, Ms. Higgins said, workers will bring in bilge pumps. “There’s so much ice out there now,” said Joe Sedor, an investigator. The plane will have to be moved sideways before it can be lifted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/ny...8plane.html?hp

[drivez]

I remember watching an episode of air accident investigation on national geographic a year or so ago. It was covering the Ethiopean 767 that ditched. They then had a very experienced expert saying that under any circumstances ditching in a commercial jet will always end with the aircraft disintergrating, as the engines will scoop the water up decelerate and maybe tear the wing off.

Well fairplay lads, many americans take the mick out of USAirways for their poor time keeping, but you can sure fly your aircraft.

[ferrydude]

You done lost already Son

[md80fanatic]

If yes, you should have realised visibility under such circumstances is not even measured in inches, but in centimetres, and not many of those....

True, but there was a good deal of time when the wing was full of witnessess, the airframe floating with a nose up attitude, the top of an engine should be as visible as the top of the wing surface (this prior to any churning produced by rescue craft). And I can't see the difficulty locating an engine while it is apparently attached. It's only a matter of swimming along the wing leading edge until you bump your head. Strange that it takes over 24 hours to accomplish this?

Not saying conspiracy.....just wondering why something so pathetically simple to ascertain requires such a great amount of time to accomplish.

[Dunbar]

Speculation

The water landing was a fantastically skilled piece of mitigation, of that there can be no doubt. But...

...Why is it that when the flight crew are criticised, everyone says " Wait for the report", and yet when they are praised as heroes, posters accept immediately that this is the case, with flowery speculation about what might have been happening on the flight deck...

We do not yet know what happened, other than the fact that the situation was well mitigated.

Wait for the report.

[ferrydude]

Excuse me sir/mam, have this blanket. Now then, after you stop shivering, we have some questions. How many engines did you count whilst awaiting rescue?

[Shamrock 602]

Further NTSB press conference with pilot's statement "due at 8 pm" on Saturday

There's an update on the lifting process on the site of this NY-based 24-hour news channel, NY1 | 24 Hour Local News | Top Stories | Jet Slowly Lifted From Icy Hudson River

The report also says there's to be a further NTSB presser on Saturday night at 8 pm EST, with "descriptions of testimony" from the captain. There are also some details of the very brief exchange with ATC, and some comments on the crash from the flight attendents. (Perhaps these were published elsewhere - I hadn't seen them.) I'm not familiar with this media outlet, so I'm not vouching for its accuracy.

To answer an earlier poster's question about why the press can't get it right about whether one or both engines had detached: apart from the usual inaccuracies which mar many media reports (and which annoy us all), the reason for the discrepancy is that accounts given by the NTSB and other salvage workers have changed. Some media outlets attribute almost everything to a spokesperson, which can be slow and clumsy. Others will take apparently uncontested statements and report them as a fact - if the statements are wrong, it is the outlet's reputation which suffers.

One version reported during the day was that the second engine was still attached after the ditching, but had later separated. This could easily have been misinterpretated later - just as posters here "simplify" what they have heard, and get it wrong.

I'm curious about the effect which one engine remaining attached would have on the way the aircraft floated after impact. Would it not make it "list", as it is now doing? Yet it was level in the water at first, allowing people to stand on both wings. Could the "list" be caused by partly-empty fuel tanks filling up on one side? Could water get in through the venting system, or would ruptured fuel lines allow it in?