Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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Interesting, the pic a few posts back seems to show the off-wing slide deployed... I don't recall seeing it earlier.. .anyone know if it was deployed later on once the a/c was empty of pax??
As for comments that people are 'forgetting the rest of the crew'... plenty of posts early on in this thread praising BOTH of the flight crew and the cabin crew as well! Credit where credit is due, even IF there were mistakes contributing, it was still a damn good job that no one died
As for comments that people are 'forgetting the rest of the crew'... plenty of posts early on in this thread praising BOTH of the flight crew and the cabin crew as well! Credit where credit is due, even IF there were mistakes contributing, it was still a damn good job that no one died
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Found this one the BBC website, who comes up with this drivel?
The ditching of an airliner into the Hudson river in New York, in which all 155 passengers and crew escaped alive, has been hailed as a textbook example of landing on water.
The plane, an Airbus A320, had been hit by a flock of birds shortly after taking off from the city's La Guardia airport, and then tried to go back before making an emergency landing in the river.
Captain Chesley Sullenberger III has been praised for his "masterful" landing, but how does a pilot attempt such a manoeuvre successfully?
Although the likelihood is remote, all commercial pilots must undergo training for such an eventuality before qualifying. There are taught to follow a procedure -which, in its initial stages is similar to an emergency landing on solid ground, although there may not be time in an emergency situation to follow it rigorously.
Having made a mayday call and alerted the cabin crew, those in the cockpit must ensure the landing gear - wheels and undercarriage - is turned off to aid a smoother landing and prevent warning sirens sounding as the plane nears the ground. The air conditioning would also be turned off to allow cabin pressure to match that outside.
There is an overriding need to slow down the craft. If there is still power to the engines and a wind over 25 knots, a pilot would be expected to fly into the wind to assist slowing. Wing flaps would also be fully extended. If there is time a pilot would be expected to burn as much fuel as possible, reducing the weight of the plane and so increasing buoyancy when it hits the water. On this occasion, however, the engines had already cut out.
As the aircraft nears the water, the pilot must try to continue slowing while, crucially, ensuring it does not "stall". In avionics the word has a different meaning to that in motoring, for example. Stall is an aerodynamic term which describes when wings lose their lift.
It's a difficult balancing act.
Cartwheel
"You don't want to hit the water too quickly or the plane will break into pieces", says first officer Tom Hanks of DHL, who flies Boeing 757s for the courier company.
At this point, a lot depends on the weather. In the seconds before impact, a pilot must try to ensure the wings are level - a feat clearly achieved by Captain Sullenberger, says David Learmount, operations and safety editor of Flight International magazine.
"[He] landed at precisely the right speed, completely under control, wings totally level. If one wing dips and catches the water, the aeroplane cartwheels, breaks up and some people would definitely have died."
The calmness of the Hudson river was a blessing in this case, compared with a choppy sea, says Mr Hanks.
"He could land anywhere as it wasn't rough water."
While maintaining both wings are equidistant from the nearing surface, the pilot must then lower the tail end. The nose would be higher than in a normal runway landing and at the last minute the pilot would slowly lower it into the water.
Ideally, the aircraft would plane for a while before stopping, after which it would start to sink.
As Eric Moody, a former British Airways pilot, told the BBC, "you have to skim the surface like a pebble. If you go any other way; putting the tail or nose down too quickly, you're either going to break the plane in half or porpoise the thing, into the water and out." Skill is a significant part of the process, observes Mr Hanks, but it's not the only requirement. "In terms of the actual impact on this occasion, [Capt Sullenberger] did a very good job, and he was also very lucky."
yeh its hard to remember to turn the landing gear off!
The ditching of an airliner into the Hudson river in New York, in which all 155 passengers and crew escaped alive, has been hailed as a textbook example of landing on water.
The plane, an Airbus A320, had been hit by a flock of birds shortly after taking off from the city's La Guardia airport, and then tried to go back before making an emergency landing in the river.
Captain Chesley Sullenberger III has been praised for his "masterful" landing, but how does a pilot attempt such a manoeuvre successfully?
Although the likelihood is remote, all commercial pilots must undergo training for such an eventuality before qualifying. There are taught to follow a procedure -which, in its initial stages is similar to an emergency landing on solid ground, although there may not be time in an emergency situation to follow it rigorously.
Having made a mayday call and alerted the cabin crew, those in the cockpit must ensure the landing gear - wheels and undercarriage - is turned off to aid a smoother landing and prevent warning sirens sounding as the plane nears the ground. The air conditioning would also be turned off to allow cabin pressure to match that outside.
There is an overriding need to slow down the craft. If there is still power to the engines and a wind over 25 knots, a pilot would be expected to fly into the wind to assist slowing. Wing flaps would also be fully extended. If there is time a pilot would be expected to burn as much fuel as possible, reducing the weight of the plane and so increasing buoyancy when it hits the water. On this occasion, however, the engines had already cut out.
As the aircraft nears the water, the pilot must try to continue slowing while, crucially, ensuring it does not "stall". In avionics the word has a different meaning to that in motoring, for example. Stall is an aerodynamic term which describes when wings lose their lift.
It's a difficult balancing act.
Cartwheel
"You don't want to hit the water too quickly or the plane will break into pieces", says first officer Tom Hanks of DHL, who flies Boeing 757s for the courier company.
At this point, a lot depends on the weather. In the seconds before impact, a pilot must try to ensure the wings are level - a feat clearly achieved by Captain Sullenberger, says David Learmount, operations and safety editor of Flight International magazine.
"[He] landed at precisely the right speed, completely under control, wings totally level. If one wing dips and catches the water, the aeroplane cartwheels, breaks up and some people would definitely have died."
The calmness of the Hudson river was a blessing in this case, compared with a choppy sea, says Mr Hanks.
"He could land anywhere as it wasn't rough water."
While maintaining both wings are equidistant from the nearing surface, the pilot must then lower the tail end. The nose would be higher than in a normal runway landing and at the last minute the pilot would slowly lower it into the water.
Ideally, the aircraft would plane for a while before stopping, after which it would start to sink.
As Eric Moody, a former British Airways pilot, told the BBC, "you have to skim the surface like a pebble. If you go any other way; putting the tail or nose down too quickly, you're either going to break the plane in half or porpoise the thing, into the water and out." Skill is a significant part of the process, observes Mr Hanks, but it's not the only requirement. "In terms of the actual impact on this occasion, [Capt Sullenberger] did a very good job, and he was also very lucky."
yeh its hard to remember to turn the landing gear off!
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about the copilot
some wag noticed that the first officer had 23 years with usair....well
USAIR pilots have had the toughest time in the industry (except for those who's airlines no longer exist).
IT is quite llkely that before sept. 11, 2001 FO skiles was a captain. Cutbacks have ruined the careers of many pilots.(me too) FOR ALL practical purposes, the FO alone probably had more experience than the entire front end crew of many of the other airlines front end crews represented here on pprune.
USAIR pilots (east) got screwed again by the air line pilots association and their merger policy which would probably have put a 7 year pilot ahead of the 23 year veteran FO.
and ALPA NO LONGER is the union at USAIR.
The FA's are equally experienced and have now seen it all.
USAIR pilots have had the toughest time in the industry (except for those who's airlines no longer exist).
IT is quite llkely that before sept. 11, 2001 FO skiles was a captain. Cutbacks have ruined the careers of many pilots.(me too) FOR ALL practical purposes, the FO alone probably had more experience than the entire front end crew of many of the other airlines front end crews represented here on pprune.
USAIR pilots (east) got screwed again by the air line pilots association and their merger policy which would probably have put a 7 year pilot ahead of the 23 year veteran FO.
and ALPA NO LONGER is the union at USAIR.
The FA's are equally experienced and have now seen it all.
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g1344304:
that's not too bad for the BBC....
...but if that wasn't a "textbook" landing, or are near to it (airframe intact, everyone out, everyone alive!) then what is?
fc101
E145 driver
that's not too bad for the BBC....
...but if that wasn't a "textbook" landing, or are near to it (airframe intact, everyone out, everyone alive!) then what is?
fc101
E145 driver
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On take off the attitude of the plane may be such (nose high) that the birds flying level are never seen. Furthermore the plane will likely be slow and heavy.
There are still such things as accidents. Not everything in the world is avoidable
Thanks again for the answer
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Dead Stick Landings
The media I watched has ignored that Sully is a qualified glider pilot. The Gimli Glider, Air Canada 767 that landed deadstick, was also Captained by a qualified glider pilot.
Back in 1977, after the Southern Airways DC-9 had a double engine failure due to hail ingestion, they landed on a road, taking out a corner grocery store, with some loss of life. Due to crappy weather radar of the day, and insufficient training, they had flown into the eye of a thunderstorm near Atlanta. They were easily in reach of an airport, but chose a road festooned with power poles.
I talked to a lot of airline pilots back then, and few had any idea of the glide ratio of their birds, and fewer yet were sure of best glide speeds.
Avionics have come a long way since 1977, and training has too. Were I a commercial pilot, I would get some deadstick time. In my case, half my landings were at a field with 1600 feet beyond the displaced threshhold, in which every landing could be realistically deadstick.
GB
Back in 1977, after the Southern Airways DC-9 had a double engine failure due to hail ingestion, they landed on a road, taking out a corner grocery store, with some loss of life. Due to crappy weather radar of the day, and insufficient training, they had flown into the eye of a thunderstorm near Atlanta. They were easily in reach of an airport, but chose a road festooned with power poles.
I talked to a lot of airline pilots back then, and few had any idea of the glide ratio of their birds, and fewer yet were sure of best glide speeds.
Avionics have come a long way since 1977, and training has too. Were I a commercial pilot, I would get some deadstick time. In my case, half my landings were at a field with 1600 feet beyond the displaced threshhold, in which every landing could be realistically deadstick.
GB
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Bird Avoidance
The vulture above brings to mind the time I was flying a Cessna 172 with a local at about 2,000 agl in the Venezuelan outback. We came to an area where some of those huge condor relatives were soaring, and tried to pick our way between them. One was in our path, but safely above us. Suddenly, he turned his head and looked at us, pulled in his wings and dove for the ground. Both of us yanked on the wheel as he passed inches from the prop.
Don't ever try to fly under a bird.. They can dive like a bullet.
There was a Rockwell T2 jet trainer at the Venezuelan AF base at the time that had taken one of those vultures into the engine, and done $1 Million damage.
The next technology will be Mode C transponders implanted into geese and other large birds....
GB
Don't ever try to fly under a bird.. They can dive like a bullet.
There was a Rockwell T2 jet trainer at the Venezuelan AF base at the time that had taken one of those vultures into the engine, and done $1 Million damage.
The next technology will be Mode C transponders implanted into geese and other large birds....
GB
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British Airways Flight Training does (or did) offer Flight Safety Awareness courses covering emergency situations using the cabin simulators used for cabin and flight crew training
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Don't forget though that the aircraft was always losing altitude, initially it was reported that the pilot requested a return and was half way through the ATC turn vector when he reassessed that the aircraft would not make it back. There are a lot of tall obstructions between the aircraft and the airport, maybe if those building weren't there the aircraft may have made it in a straight out glide, however it would seem that if in any doubt the best thing to do is to turn away from the obstacle and the river is a sure way of ensuring no collateral damage when the aircraft comes down.
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Cooked Goose
Oh, Hornet Protector, wasn't the legend that the high RF energy from the Wx radar would repel birds? Those radars were also blamed for attracting lightning strikes, according to the wisdom in some airlines.
The old radars had high power magnetron transmitters, typically 65,000 watts peak power, which is about 700 watts RMS (cooking) power, like in your kitchen nuke.
The digital radars that came out in the 1981 era are on the order of 150 watts peak power, less than 1 watt RMS, so they have no ability to either repel birds, or attract lightning...
GB
The old radars had high power magnetron transmitters, typically 65,000 watts peak power, which is about 700 watts RMS (cooking) power, like in your kitchen nuke.
The digital radars that came out in the 1981 era are on the order of 150 watts peak power, less than 1 watt RMS, so they have no ability to either repel birds, or attract lightning...
GB
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I'm new in aviation. I think they have done a good job.
But why didn't they return to the airport?
According to the chart above it looks to me that a return
to the airport wasn't longer than the flight they have done.
But why didn't they return to the airport?
According to the chart above it looks to me that a return
to the airport wasn't longer than the flight they have done.
As was said before, the bird ingestion probably happened early in the flight and they continued to climb while they sorted things out. I expect the damage was to both engines and they did not continue running well enough to make it all the way back.
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Did the Hudson river current help?
This is a truly remarkable ditching, one that defies belief, and which deserves sustained applause for the pilots and crew.
The calm water of the Hudson clearly helped, but elsewhere I have read that the water in that river flows quite fast, although given that it is tidal I have no idea of the speed and direction of the current at the time the plane ditched.
Was the pilot helped or hindered by the current when he ditched? A 10 knot current flowing in the direction of ditching could be part of the reason why the plane remained intact. If there was a 10 knot current flowing against the direction of ditching, then this story is even more extraordinary.
Anyone know?
The calm water of the Hudson clearly helped, but elsewhere I have read that the water in that river flows quite fast, although given that it is tidal I have no idea of the speed and direction of the current at the time the plane ditched.
Was the pilot helped or hindered by the current when he ditched? A 10 knot current flowing in the direction of ditching could be part of the reason why the plane remained intact. If there was a 10 knot current flowing against the direction of ditching, then this story is even more extraordinary.
Anyone know?
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In a multi crew cockpit, having a bird hit ( above 500 agl ) has always been considered a crime and the crew more often than not ,have been admonished for their lack of airmanship.
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Aisles, plural, of an A320?
Bear in mind that this elementary error comes from the New York Times, which bills itself as "The Paper of Record", the most authoritative press organ in America. So much for that. Are there any journalists who get their aviation details correct?
No one believes this about the NYTimes any more. They are about to fold, in any case.
Bear in mind that this elementary error comes from the New York Times, which bills itself as "The Paper of Record", the most authoritative press organ in America. So much for that. Are there any journalists who get their aviation details correct?
No one believes this about the NYTimes any more. They are about to fold, in any case.