Whats with BCN approach??
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Folks, I fly out of Spain and agree that Spanish ATC is crap!
If you compare them to most other countries in Europe, I think that the Spanish mucho attitude to aviation is the problem. Spanish pilots don’t do speed control. It’s as simple as that.
Over the years, ATC has adapted to get the job completed. And this is what has evolved.
We should be complaining to Euorcontrol, not bitching on pprune!
If you compare them to most other countries in Europe, I think that the Spanish mucho attitude to aviation is the problem. Spanish pilots don’t do speed control. It’s as simple as that.
Over the years, ATC has adapted to get the job completed. And this is what has evolved.
We should be complaining to Euorcontrol, not bitching on pprune!
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¿?¿?
First of all, I don't agree with the initial post. I think that if u were vectored like that is just to shorten ur flight as much as possible, this is at least what they usually do at night in lebl, if u can not do it, just say it!! (probably influenced by all cargo flights inbound)
I've been flying all around Europe, and some flights to US and Middle east. I would say that spanish atc is sure a world top ten (probably the #7 or ·8). I agree of many mistakes u have all commented but u are not looking at your own countries with the same point of view. What I like in Spain is that they don't make us slow down 50 miles away from the airport (excepting Madrid) and that obviously is harder job for ATC, if u go to Charles de gaulle or le bourget u must descent many miles before the FMS's TOD and slow downed. ¿Is that a good ATC procedure? No, but is easier for them. Same in London.
About language, maybe its safer but that's not an Spanish ATC problem, try to post about ICAO rules. Same could be said for all french ATC, Italy, and many eastern Europe countries. Another solution is that all u (English Gods) try to learn any other language, I'm sure that would do your flights safer!!
And finally....mmmm....are you sure that in UK or US aeronautical english is spoken?????????
I don't think so....
I've been flying all around Europe, and some flights to US and Middle east. I would say that spanish atc is sure a world top ten (probably the #7 or ·8). I agree of many mistakes u have all commented but u are not looking at your own countries with the same point of view. What I like in Spain is that they don't make us slow down 50 miles away from the airport (excepting Madrid) and that obviously is harder job for ATC, if u go to Charles de gaulle or le bourget u must descent many miles before the FMS's TOD and slow downed. ¿Is that a good ATC procedure? No, but is easier for them. Same in London.
About language, maybe its safer but that's not an Spanish ATC problem, try to post about ICAO rules. Same could be said for all french ATC, Italy, and many eastern Europe countries. Another solution is that all u (English Gods) try to learn any other language, I'm sure that would do your flights safer!!
And finally....mmmm....are you sure that in UK or US aeronautical english is spoken?????????
I don't think so....
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"About language, maybe its safer but that's not an Spanish ATC problem, try to post about ICAO rules. Same could be said for all french ATC, Italy, and many eastern Europe countries. Another solution is that all u (English Gods) try to learn any other language, I'm sure that would do your flights safer!! "
Are you SERIOUS? There is a reason why there is an international language in ATC. Using your ideology, every longhaul pilot in the world needs to speak 100 languages so that he/she can communicate with any countries ATC that they fly over.
"Are you SERIOUS? There is a reason why there is an international language in ATC. Using your ideology, every longhaul pilot in the world needs to speak 100 languages so that he/she can communicate with any countries ATC that they fly over.
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- Going back to the original post, what does it matter whether the ATCO was male or female?
I don't think any cards need to be played here Becki
When different people say a story, some like to give it context, description etc. I think the poster would have been annoyed regardless if it was a woman, man, old, young, black, white, blah blah.
I don't think any cards need to be played here Becki
When different people say a story, some like to give it context, description etc. I think the poster would have been annoyed regardless if it was a woman, man, old, young, black, white, blah blah.
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Are you SERIOUS? There is a reason why there is an international language in ATC. Using your ideology, every longhaul pilot in the world needs to speak 100 languages so that he/she can communicate with any countries ATC that they fly over.
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Hi,
I was based in Spain for almost 2 years. During that time I built my own opinion about Spanish control and have various goods and bads.
Spanish control is pretty conservative regarding spacing. They don’t usually push you to the limits but on the other hand they also stop climbs and descents in a crazy way due to this as well. This makes me think that they are not 100% confident on their skills or they just simply don’t care about our flight economy.
There is definitely not a pro Spanish control as it dose happen in France and many other countries. We can get some cases but I have seen how Air Berlin takes a clear benefit into LEPA.
Spanish controllers are not aviation motivated and are big money – little work motivated.
Spanish control has a very VERY limited knowledge about planes and how they fly. If everything goes standard, things usually work but when they don’t hell brakes loose.
"LEBL control, XXXXX request to burn fuel due to flap problem"
"XXXXX, STBY for area to drop fuel"
"LEBL, we don't request to drop fuel we need to BURN fuel we are a B737"
"XXXXX, ok climb FL200 and turn Heading 330 for vectors to the ILS"
"LEBL, .....we can't accept vector for approach until we have burned fuel and reduced our weight, we would like to keep low in an area we can hold!!!"
"XXXXX, .....ok......STBY to drop fuel"
Can you imagine this kind of ATC with a double engine failure and about to land in a river? They would be ordering diner over the phone I suppose.
This lasted for about 8 minutes until we changed frequency.
Regarding speed limits I have to say that the first guys to disregard speed limitations are British pilots. In LEPA you can read in the airport briefing that you have to keep 250 below FL100, 210 until localizer and then 180 till 5 miles out or something like that (I just can’t remember) I can remember that they are a little fast in some cases but perfectly doable. In countless occasions I could see British planes doing 140-150Kts 8 or more miles out. This is also not complying with speed restrictions. Once a B767 was 25 miles out doing 140Kts and the ATC requested this aircraft to speed up and they said they couldn’t as it was a training flight. It would be nice to teach pilots in flying in a proper way. Here is where Spanish ATC is terrible. In any decent control if you don’t comply you are vectored out of the approach and make you re think your decisions. In Spain you will find some one dropping speed when instructed to keep a specific speed and he will land and you will be doing a go around.
Basically what I find is that you simply can’t trust Spanish ATC.
I was based in Spain for almost 2 years. During that time I built my own opinion about Spanish control and have various goods and bads.
Spanish control is pretty conservative regarding spacing. They don’t usually push you to the limits but on the other hand they also stop climbs and descents in a crazy way due to this as well. This makes me think that they are not 100% confident on their skills or they just simply don’t care about our flight economy.
There is definitely not a pro Spanish control as it dose happen in France and many other countries. We can get some cases but I have seen how Air Berlin takes a clear benefit into LEPA.
Spanish controllers are not aviation motivated and are big money – little work motivated.
Spanish control has a very VERY limited knowledge about planes and how they fly. If everything goes standard, things usually work but when they don’t hell brakes loose.
"LEBL control, XXXXX request to burn fuel due to flap problem"
"XXXXX, STBY for area to drop fuel"
"LEBL, we don't request to drop fuel we need to BURN fuel we are a B737"
"XXXXX, ok climb FL200 and turn Heading 330 for vectors to the ILS"
"LEBL, .....we can't accept vector for approach until we have burned fuel and reduced our weight, we would like to keep low in an area we can hold!!!"
"XXXXX, .....ok......STBY to drop fuel"
Can you imagine this kind of ATC with a double engine failure and about to land in a river? They would be ordering diner over the phone I suppose.
This lasted for about 8 minutes until we changed frequency.
Regarding speed limits I have to say that the first guys to disregard speed limitations are British pilots. In LEPA you can read in the airport briefing that you have to keep 250 below FL100, 210 until localizer and then 180 till 5 miles out or something like that (I just can’t remember) I can remember that they are a little fast in some cases but perfectly doable. In countless occasions I could see British planes doing 140-150Kts 8 or more miles out. This is also not complying with speed restrictions. Once a B767 was 25 miles out doing 140Kts and the ATC requested this aircraft to speed up and they said they couldn’t as it was a training flight. It would be nice to teach pilots in flying in a proper way. Here is where Spanish ATC is terrible. In any decent control if you don’t comply you are vectored out of the approach and make you re think your decisions. In Spain you will find some one dropping speed when instructed to keep a specific speed and he will land and you will be doing a go around.
Basically what I find is that you simply can’t trust Spanish ATC.
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Spanish ATCO
I sadly have to admit youve had a very good analysis of the situation.
I must tell you we have very good proffesionals among us but the system fails...
Regards
I must tell you we have very good proffesionals among us but the system fails...
Regards
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the OFCR......and probably somewhere over China zzzzzzzz
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BCN APP nowhere near as bad as......
CDG!!! "Bonjour ABC 123 you arrrrre number fowwwwer behind 'eavy 747 4 miles a'ead. cleared to land 27L" on this ocasion we went around as cloud was on cat 1 limits and frankly i hate it when tower wash their hands of you! On th other hand my french (interms) of ATC french is vastly improving with every visit. decollage, a doit, a gauge blah blah blah blah 
BCN is nothing compared to that debacle (sp)? Oh and La rochelle were a hoot 6 months ago by clearing me for a straight in ILS from 80miles away! oh they dooo have a sence of humour! 
BCN is nothing compared to that debacle (sp)? Oh and La rochelle were a hoot 6 months ago by clearing me for a straight in ILS from 80miles away! oh they dooo have a sence of humour!
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Reply from an APP controller
Hello, everyone :-)
Unlike my colleague JLMS I am an approach controller at LEBL, although quite recent, just validated four months ago. Now at least you have someone to direct your complaints towards, and I'll gladly accept any input you provide.
Let me start by acknowledging that mistakes are done at times and there is always room for improvement. Having said that let me discuss some of the points raised here:
Night approaches to RWY 02:
Traffic entering via ALBER or BISBA have quite a long way to go via SLL. We try to cut the way short by vectoring for a right hand circuitish approach. Because this vectoring is done very early on, wind my take you closer to the FAF than initially planned. My personal take is to redirect you to VIBIM, which is the IAF from the east, and then vectors. From this comfortable position I often clear ILS at own discretion thinking that you can better decide whether to cut the approach short or lose some height having no other restrictions. Would you rather I always gave standard vectors for approach when your are the one and only traffic? (only honest questions here)
Short approaches and traffic cutting in:
As someone commented, we don't tend to slow traffic down if not necessary. In the same vein if we believe a pilot will accept a visual approach or vectoring to mile 5 on final we tend to give him priority as that will minimize the average delay, which is what we care most about (after safety, of course!). It is a fact that the companies that more often will request such approaches, or accept high speed app tend to be local.
On the other hand it is true that we may miscalculate distances and things can go wrong. I try to apply this technique only if I don't have to unnecessarily slow down the traffic behind, but I may fail. If this is the case I for one will honestly apologise.
Speed on approach:
It is fact that it is on our culture to be more "creative". In other words: not every Spanish ATCO does things the same way. That has created the unfortunate result that many pilots will try to maintain its own separation using self speed control. And that will bring some very unwanted surprises for those of us that DO maintain speed control all the way to the FAF. If you believe that your current speed is inappropriate for your position, please say so, but don't act on your own without telling anyone.
At this point I have a question of my own. There are times where I will ask pilots to maintain 250 knots up to 14DME or so to reduce a gap. Is it too much to ask? In particular, are there specific speed limitations for Easyjet? Because I find that's the company most likely to reduce beforehand. On the same note may I bring up the fact that 160 knots up to 4DME is published on the AIP.
English language on approach:
Certainly us Spaniards are not known for having the best command of foreign language in Europe, and it's true that my older colleagues did not have as strict selection criteria on this subject as nowadays. I would hope though that the situation is improving with the new generations, and I can happily announce that our employer has been giving additional aviation English courses to those of us with lesser scores on a voluntary check we did a year ago.
Personally I started my aviation days gliding in the UK, so I don't have any issues and would be glad if English was mandatory. But that sad fact is that it isn't. And worse, many a Spanish pilot will not be expecting calls in English. That means a high risk of a lost call if I decided to generally address everyone in English and I'm the only one doing that. I am well aware of the safety implications of the lost situational awareness, but I think you will understand that a lost final vector instruction does not increase safety either. So my personal take is that I will stress English on situations where traffic information is important, but not otherwise.
Controller-Pilot familiarisation:
I would say we both need to get together more often that we actually do. Having said that I think LEBL does not do too bad. There are meetings organised for both controllers and pilots about every three months, and many issues are discussed. I don't know how well the information is disseminated afterwards, and I have just asked the organiser whether I could republish the bulletins here. Iberia, Vueling and Spanair are usually well represented, but we also had an Easyjet pilot on the last meeting. If you would like to participate in our "Foro de Controladores Pilotos" drop me a note.
Regarding actual visits I do make a point to try to fly in the cockpit every time. Spanish ways make it easier on local carriers, but sadly it hasn't been possible for foreign ones, the ones for which I would probably benefit the most. I know it is due to regulations, but it's sad indeed. On the other hand my offer to the pilots I meet to visit the ACC have been very very seldom taken. I know you don't happen to just visit air traffic control centers like I do aircraft, but I think you would benefit. Drop me a note too if you're up for a visit.
If you have read this far you have my gratitude for your patience. I hope this has served to clarify some positions, although it is no excuse for the obvious mistakes we do sometimes. Hopefully we can work together to improve the quality of service. And if anybody knows how can I arrange a visit to the London TACC I'll be very happy about it!
Cheers,
Juan.
Unlike my colleague JLMS I am an approach controller at LEBL, although quite recent, just validated four months ago. Now at least you have someone to direct your complaints towards, and I'll gladly accept any input you provide.
Let me start by acknowledging that mistakes are done at times and there is always room for improvement. Having said that let me discuss some of the points raised here:
Night approaches to RWY 02:
Traffic entering via ALBER or BISBA have quite a long way to go via SLL. We try to cut the way short by vectoring for a right hand circuitish approach. Because this vectoring is done very early on, wind my take you closer to the FAF than initially planned. My personal take is to redirect you to VIBIM, which is the IAF from the east, and then vectors. From this comfortable position I often clear ILS at own discretion thinking that you can better decide whether to cut the approach short or lose some height having no other restrictions. Would you rather I always gave standard vectors for approach when your are the one and only traffic? (only honest questions here)
Short approaches and traffic cutting in:
As someone commented, we don't tend to slow traffic down if not necessary. In the same vein if we believe a pilot will accept a visual approach or vectoring to mile 5 on final we tend to give him priority as that will minimize the average delay, which is what we care most about (after safety, of course!). It is a fact that the companies that more often will request such approaches, or accept high speed app tend to be local.
On the other hand it is true that we may miscalculate distances and things can go wrong. I try to apply this technique only if I don't have to unnecessarily slow down the traffic behind, but I may fail. If this is the case I for one will honestly apologise.
Speed on approach:
It is fact that it is on our culture to be more "creative". In other words: not every Spanish ATCO does things the same way. That has created the unfortunate result that many pilots will try to maintain its own separation using self speed control. And that will bring some very unwanted surprises for those of us that DO maintain speed control all the way to the FAF. If you believe that your current speed is inappropriate for your position, please say so, but don't act on your own without telling anyone.
At this point I have a question of my own. There are times where I will ask pilots to maintain 250 knots up to 14DME or so to reduce a gap. Is it too much to ask? In particular, are there specific speed limitations for Easyjet? Because I find that's the company most likely to reduce beforehand. On the same note may I bring up the fact that 160 knots up to 4DME is published on the AIP.
English language on approach:
Certainly us Spaniards are not known for having the best command of foreign language in Europe, and it's true that my older colleagues did not have as strict selection criteria on this subject as nowadays. I would hope though that the situation is improving with the new generations, and I can happily announce that our employer has been giving additional aviation English courses to those of us with lesser scores on a voluntary check we did a year ago.
Personally I started my aviation days gliding in the UK, so I don't have any issues and would be glad if English was mandatory. But that sad fact is that it isn't. And worse, many a Spanish pilot will not be expecting calls in English. That means a high risk of a lost call if I decided to generally address everyone in English and I'm the only one doing that. I am well aware of the safety implications of the lost situational awareness, but I think you will understand that a lost final vector instruction does not increase safety either. So my personal take is that I will stress English on situations where traffic information is important, but not otherwise.
Controller-Pilot familiarisation:
I would say we both need to get together more often that we actually do. Having said that I think LEBL does not do too bad. There are meetings organised for both controllers and pilots about every three months, and many issues are discussed. I don't know how well the information is disseminated afterwards, and I have just asked the organiser whether I could republish the bulletins here. Iberia, Vueling and Spanair are usually well represented, but we also had an Easyjet pilot on the last meeting. If you would like to participate in our "Foro de Controladores Pilotos" drop me a note.
Regarding actual visits I do make a point to try to fly in the cockpit every time. Spanish ways make it easier on local carriers, but sadly it hasn't been possible for foreign ones, the ones for which I would probably benefit the most. I know it is due to regulations, but it's sad indeed. On the other hand my offer to the pilots I meet to visit the ACC have been very very seldom taken. I know you don't happen to just visit air traffic control centers like I do aircraft, but I think you would benefit. Drop me a note too if you're up for a visit.
If you have read this far you have my gratitude for your patience. I hope this has served to clarify some positions, although it is no excuse for the obvious mistakes we do sometimes. Hopefully we can work together to improve the quality of service. And if anybody knows how can I arrange a visit to the London TACC I'll be very happy about it!
Cheers,
Juan.
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Juan,
thanks for your side. Enjoy flying into Spain, and yes you do sometimes use your initiave. Not a problem if you plan ahead.
Maybe a little understanding of other languages for english speaking pilots might be useful, but the fact is that over the years as the Southern Europe increased in prosperity relative to W. Europe, I have noticed more local languages being used.
Regards
rooaaiast
thanks for your side. Enjoy flying into Spain, and yes you do sometimes use your initiave. Not a problem if you plan ahead.
Maybe a little understanding of other languages for english speaking pilots might be useful, but the fact is that over the years as the Southern Europe increased in prosperity relative to W. Europe, I have noticed more local languages being used.
Regards
rooaaiast
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Hi Juan,
Regarding EZY standard speeds, these are our guidelines:
-250 kts 10,000' at 30NM
-220 kts 6000' at 20 NM
-180kts 3000' at 10 NM
Of course they are not set in concrete and we do our best to comply and use common sense. But those 'gates', as we call them, all aim to get us to be stable at 1000'. That means landing configuration, on the glide, no more than 10kts above target speed.
With that in mind, you can probably see why we would not want to be at 250 kts at 14 NM and 4000'. I know the above gates and being stable at 1000' is all fairly conservative, but it has brought down the number of unstable approaches at EZY as close to zero as you can reasonably expect.
The biggest problem is still the combination of language and 'creative' ATC. It's very uncomfortable for us to try and second guess what you are doing by looking at the TCAS symbols. Also, I don't think 'creative' is a great idea at a major airport, unless we really are the only one on approach. Vectors to the FAF, using standard speeds, is simply safer. Of course sometimes we all have to use our brains and cope with different situations. But AIMING to be standard most of the time is a better plan.
Thanks for sharing your views!
P
Regarding EZY standard speeds, these are our guidelines:
-250 kts 10,000' at 30NM
-220 kts 6000' at 20 NM
-180kts 3000' at 10 NM
Of course they are not set in concrete and we do our best to comply and use common sense. But those 'gates', as we call them, all aim to get us to be stable at 1000'. That means landing configuration, on the glide, no more than 10kts above target speed.
With that in mind, you can probably see why we would not want to be at 250 kts at 14 NM and 4000'. I know the above gates and being stable at 1000' is all fairly conservative, but it has brought down the number of unstable approaches at EZY as close to zero as you can reasonably expect.
The biggest problem is still the combination of language and 'creative' ATC. It's very uncomfortable for us to try and second guess what you are doing by looking at the TCAS symbols. Also, I don't think 'creative' is a great idea at a major airport, unless we really are the only one on approach. Vectors to the FAF, using standard speeds, is simply safer. Of course sometimes we all have to use our brains and cope with different situations. But AIMING to be standard most of the time is a better plan.
Thanks for sharing your views!
P
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Perma slowing up to 220kts 20dme out must drive controllers mad surely?
Likewise Juan asks about 250kt to 14d....yes it can be done in the bus no bother but we must be level at 3000ft at 14d and starting to decelerate from 20ktto be comfortably selecting flap 2 180kts on glide intercept reducing to 160kt for 4 d.....a 321 might be a bit tight on this one.
Also Juan why do LEBL in the AIP insist acceleration begins after take off at 3500feet as against the normal 3000feet else where.....
Thanks for your post Juan.
Likewise Juan asks about 250kt to 14d....yes it can be done in the bus no bother but we must be level at 3000ft at 14d and starting to decelerate from 20ktto be comfortably selecting flap 2 180kts on glide intercept reducing to 160kt for 4 d.....a 321 might be a bit tight on this one.
Also Juan why do LEBL in the AIP insist acceleration begins after take off at 3500feet as against the normal 3000feet else where.....
Thanks for your post Juan.
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There are times where I will ask pilots to maintain 250 knots up to 14DME or so to reduce a gap.
As a previous poster earlier said, you must be level at 3000 and start reducing from 250kts at D14.
You will find that many UK based carrier will carry out a CDA type of descent and in this case they wouldn't be able to configure the aircraft early enough for landing.
It would maybe help you if you gave a clearance like this one: XXX123 descend to 3000 ft to be levelled by D14 with speed of 25OKts