Continental 737 Off Runway at DEN

[aterpster]

protectthehornet:

The rudder is often the least understood flight control...more training...more experience...better flying.

Lot to be said for early training being in tail-draggers.

[AirRabbit]

Originally Posted by 777Yank

Perhaps we do need a placard next to the tiller explaining its proper use. The 737 operating manual says to hold light forward pressure on the control column and maintain directional control with the rudder pedals. Nowhere does is say to use the tiller until the rudder becomes effective. The rudder pedals will turn the nose wheel up to 7 degrees, if that is not enough to keep you on centerline, then you probably should discontinue the takeoff.
This is standard operating procedure, you will find it in the book.

I'd hate to have to rely on the grease-pencil-note-on-the-window route, but it seems that at least some pilots are not well versed on what you've quite correctly pointed out. The reason for the forward pressure is to ensure that the nose gear is "in contact with" the runway - other wise, rudder pedal steering OR the tiller isn't going to get the job done. That is what some on this thread had noted ... very little forward control column position at any time during the takeoff. I think the questions posed here (i.e., "did the Captain use the tiller? - does he do this all the time? - why didn't he maintain forward control column postion to ensure the nose gear was on the runway? .... etc., etc.) are very valid. Again, unless you ask the F/O to push the column forward, the Captain, with one hand on the throttles and one hand on the tiller, certainly won't be able to do it. Then it becomes a "whose-got-the-airplane" question when its time to rotate. I think someone forgot what Boeing taught.

[protectthehornet]

there is so much good stuff now on this thread...and it all seems to get ''back to basics''.

I think someone should take a movie of a 737...300 or later showing when the engines put out the power, the nose lifts up a bit...even on the ground....light on the nosegear.

I know many of you are out there and have watched planes take off in a crosswind and it staggers into the air with no crosswind correction...even being blown sideways as it gets light on the mains.

I wish someone would start a tv channel....nothing but takeoffs and landings at major airports.

[p51guy]

J3 cubs properly flown have no problems with xwinds. An airliner properly flown should have even less problems with xwinds. I've never seen a problem with either with anyone I have flown with once they get to private pilot status.

[protectthehornet]

the key thing is ''properly flown''.

i've flown with some real winners. o h well

[Captain-Crunch]

Correction

Yes,

protectthehornet, 777Yank and others are correct,

I meant to say when "the pilot flying feels the [pedal steering] becoming effective", [not rudder], as in, after the turn into runway alignment. (wife was rushing me to bed).

My bad, thank you for the correction. Here is the statement corrected:

Most jets the pilot not flying holds full down elevator on the roll to dig the nosewheel into the clutter a little better, (may make the tiller effective), then, once he gets the final power set, and pilot flying feels the pedal steering becoming effective, his hand comes off the tiller.

Another reader was questioning the literal "slight forward pressure" on the elevator, but at low speeds slight pressure is not going to do very much. It's a transition. Captain makes the turn onto the runway, while the F/O holds full down elevator. As the captain transitions to pedal steering and takes the yoke, he gradually relaxes the forward pressure towards neutral as the aircraft accelerates.

These are airmanship things that, before deregulation, old hands taught to new guys like me, even if it wasn't in the book.

I don't even like TOGA A/T takeoff procedures because if an engine stalls near target settings on the ice the pilot is less connected and less likely to notice it. I think takeoff power should be set manually most of the time, so crews stay current handling slow spools. A slow spool on the upwind engine combined with a gust over rudder limit can ruin your whole day. Maybe takeoffs on icy runways with high gusty crosswinds should see manual final power settings. That way crews don't get surprised if the autothrottles set a mis match.

But maybe I'm wrong on that. What do you guys think?

C.

[protectthehornet]

captain crunch is largely right.

we are getting out of the loop too much in everything. directional control on takeoff and landing is one of the highest criticality things we do. yet we have forgotten how to hold the rudder to the stop if needed.

and come on, anyone in Denver who isn't aware of wind is asking for trouble.

heck, our pioneers, the Wrights, went all the way from Dayton to near Kitty Hawk, north carolina just to get the winds right. And we are taking off with tail winds, huge crosswinds because we can't just say: tower, we request blank runway for takeoff or landing because its the right thing to do.

[IGh]

Earlier directives against TILLER-use

Messages #563 & 565 mention TILLER contribution to Lost Directional Control:

"... once ... aligned with the runway for takeoff ( or landing) you should not use the tiller...."

Several past mishaps, both T/O and Landing, have led to repeat AAR- discussions against use of TILLER:

-- "Tower 41" / 20Dec95 B747-136 rwy excursion, RTO at JFK.... P. C. = captain's failure to reject the T/O in a timely manner when excessive nosewheel steering Tiller inputs resulted in loss of directional control on a slippery rwy; inadequate procedures for slippery rwy developed by Tower Air and Boeing; Contributed: inadequate fidelity of B747 training simulators for slippery rwy ops ...

-- AA102 / 14Apr93 DC-10-30, Landing DFW Rwy17L, excursion off-side \\AAR pg 106, Conclusions, Finding #13 ... captain failed to compensate for moderate crosswinds from the right, allowing the airplane to weathervane and drift off the right side of the runway with minimal rudder commands, inappropriate tiller nosewheel steering commands, and lack of forward pressure on the control column....

[ManaAdaSystem]

Maybe takeoffs on icy runways with high gusty crosswinds should see manual final power settings. That way crews don't get surprised if the autothrottles set a mis match.

But maybe I'm wrong on that. What do you guys think?

I don't take off on icy runways with high gusty crosswinds. I have FCOM limitations that prevent me from doing this.
My main issue when I operate from slippery runways, is to make sure both engines accelerate the same. Getting both engines properly stabilized before pressing TOGA works for me. I think I will notice an engine stall even if I use TOGA.
Slow spools? I suspect some of you guys are more used to older generation engines?
No offense, of course

[Shore Guy]

As has now become the norm, the potshots have begun. Yes, after months of study there was a conclusion of pilot error (with contributory factors). But please put yourself in this pilot's shoes. He has seconds to react to what feels like an uncontrollable aircraft, in a scenario that the airline never trained for.

Please give the person a break.

There for the grace of, well, you know the rest.

What happened in this video (in flight) looks similar to the event (on the ground) at DEN. More time and leeway and visual clues for the DC-8 to react than the crew at DEN.

www.dc8.org

[protectthehornet]

give the person a break.

something the airline didn't train him for.

we have all faced things we were not ''trained for". We cannot train for everything, but we can instill the sense of staying ahead of the plane. Of the highest degree of professionalism at all times, so that we are on an elevated level of awareness even on our worst day.

these are not potshots. these are thoughts of professional pilots. pilots who have faced winds, or ice, or other things and have held on.

over 16 years ago, I went to the head of the FAA, ended up seeing the deputy administrator and explained to that person that the controllers must give better and more timely weather information to pilots.

11 years ago I saw the administrator, jane garvey, on the same subject...and even mentioned how bad our security training was (cuba, cuba, cuba).

Was anything done? Was any improvement made?

Nope...and what did we have in the meantime. this denver bit with poor wind information and, oh yeah, 9-11.

And where was the continental pilot in question? Had he tried to improve things in our industry?

I doubt it.

[p51guy]

Hopefully when you get your first airline job you have had enough experience, 5,000 plus hrs and a lot of jet time to not need flying instructions. You need to know the equipment you will be flying but you don't need xwind instruction. You should already have had that mastered. At my airline you did, at least my first one.

Now we are getting low time pilots flying commuters with low time captains so for them this isn't true. Once in a while you get a pilot with the majors that can't fly too. I have watched some pretty badly performed approaches and landings wondering where he learned to fly. Some pilots are very mechanical and have no feel for their airplane.

A xwind landing isn't hard if you can feel what the airplane is doing and don't fight it. I used the J3 wing down land straight on every plane I have flown and it has served me well with no landings being memorable so it worked for me.

[heavy.airbourne]

A xwind landing isn't hard if you can feel what the airplane is doing and don't fight it. I used the J3 wing down land straight on every plane I have flown and it has served me well with no landings being memorable so it worked for me.

Excuse me, but I cannot concur. Landing a C90 in x-wind is different to landing a B737 different to a B767 different to a B747 different to an A340. Take the A340: After the brake (of the descent rate) the aft bogey wheels touch first; now, you have to start an immediate smooth derotation to avoid crashing into the bogey (and then, the center gear, which touches later), while the deploying ground spoilers give you a nose-up momentum you have to counteract, still keeping the derotation rate; then the inboard reversers go to full power, giving you a nose-down momentum you have to counteract, still keeping the derotation rates. Now, smoothly land the nose-gear, and you may get power on the outboard reversers. That's quite a lot to do within 2 sec's, while the flight control logic transits from normal law to a "modified" alternate law. When you eventually got hold of it, you may start practising x-wind landings, which is a mandatory decrab technique to reduce loads to the main gear (hell, they managed to brake it while lining up - you should treat it like wet toilet paper). For that, you have to align the main gear with the rwy center line, which is not easy as AI hid the loc antennas in the radome (at 30 kts cross, your line of sight will be near the rwy edge). Than apply rudder to get the nose around and reach rwy heading just as the main bogeys touch down; as the turn gives more lift to the upwind wing, you will have to counteract that, as well. Now, does anybody really think having learned that riding Metroliners or B737's. I don't! And it gets worse with abnormal flight controls, 1e/o (for the changing yaw you have to counteract while reducing thrust to idle), etc. By the way, you can't really feel the aircraft, you will feel the feel computer, augmentation, etc.

(...) planes take off in a crosswind and it staggers into the air with no crosswind correction...even being blown sideways as it gets light on the mains.

For taking off, while pushing performance you have to pay attention not to extend the spoilers, as this will destroy lift you are counting on. (Tried a B763ER in a SIM, the climb rate improvement single engine is from 200 ft/min to 350 ft/min.) Try LAS/RUH/DEN/JNB on a hot summer midday. Doing that correctly, you must drift away from the center line, the amount relates to the x-component and your practise. And do not forget to control the rotation rate to avoid tail strikes.

Biguns are different!

For you SLF and PPL guys: Keep in mind the lag in reaction time comparing e.g. 250to to 900kg.

[p51guy]

The A340 sounds like a real handful. I thought the Beach D18 was challenging.

[fjordviking]

heavy.airbourne

IŽll take the A340 any day in a gusy X-wind over the Metroliner/Merlin. Extensive experience on both and I hope I never have to set foot in the Merlin again , ever.

[protectthehornet]

the merlin metroliner is a piece of crap...I hope I never see one again either. I don't like the way its built, the method of nose gear steering, or anything about it...and I am even giving the benefit of the doubt by letting it be the metro 3 or 4...the metro 2 is beyond crap.

[BobM2]

aileron use

Everyone sems to pretty much agree on the need for elevator downforce & rudder to maintain direction in this situation. What I haven't seen mentioned is the importance of into the wind aileron. In this case, it appears that about 1/2 wheel deflection was being held until "at around 90 knots he felt the rear of the airplane was slipping hard to the right and the tyres losing traction". At this point, he abandoned the correct aileron input & grabbed the tiller, which everyone agrees was useless. Increasing the proper aileron input to put more downforce on the upwind main gear would tend to stop this downwind drift & greatly aid in maintaining directional control. Any comments?

[p51guy]

If the main gear was losing traction and slipping to the right wouldn't that mean not enough weight was on the main gear and the yoke was too far forward? We called it wheelbarrowing.

[BobM2]

No, because the graphs in the NTSB report show no down elevator was used although the 737 has a low thrust line & needs some down elevator on t.o. especially in a x-wind. At 90kts with a 45kt x-wind, I guess the relative wind would be about 30 degrees left of the nose, or almost directly on the leading edge of the left wing. The resultant lifting effect takes weight off the main gear leading to a downwind drift as reported by this crew. Aggresive use of aileron & resultant spoiler would counter this effect & maintain max downforce on the main gear.

[p51guy]

Bob, I agree with the 45 knot xwind they were in big trouble on a possible wet runway. Obviously the wind wasn't reported as such when cleared for take off. I have seen some extreme wind changes after a plane has been cleared for takeoff that would make it impossible to compensate for. The worst was a Senecca taking off in the south with a reported tornado approaching the airport, we put our Falcon 20 in the hangar because of hail reports. He took off and 30 seconds after he broke ground the headwind switched to a 40 knot tailwind. He was very lucky.