Seeking Data re Mandatory Retirement Ages
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Under discussion in several African countries....max age 68 for Commanders.
Guidelines being drawn up now, and if it proves successful, age 70 to be implemented eventually.
Guidelines being drawn up now, and if it proves successful, age 70 to be implemented eventually.
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Raymond.
This is getting old (no pun intended.)
Over 90% off the pilots at Air Canada voted not to change our contractual retirement age from 60. Just like police and firemen, this is our right to have as a group a SET retirement age at this company .
If you simply must fly , no one will stop you . You can go fly freight, charter or in Timbuktu.
This is getting old (no pun intended.)
Over 90% off the pilots at Air Canada voted not to change our contractual retirement age from 60. Just like police and firemen, this is our right to have as a group a SET retirement age at this company .
If you simply must fly , no one will stop you . You can go fly freight, charter or in Timbuktu.
Picture
The whole point is, that someone WILL stop you. That is what enforced retirement is all about!
I agree that if individuals or companies have an agreement to retire pilots at 55 or 60, then that is what should happen. However what is happening is that people are being forced to retire against their will, and in some cases against the will of the employer too.
Contracts are one thing, the law is something else.
And quite frankly, Picture, I find your put-down about freight, charter and Timbuktu a tad offensive for someone who has just subscribed to PPrune in order to make this first post.
If you simply must fly , no one will stop you
I agree that if individuals or companies have an agreement to retire pilots at 55 or 60, then that is what should happen. However what is happening is that people are being forced to retire against their will, and in some cases against the will of the employer too.
Contracts are one thing, the law is something else.
And quite frankly, Picture, I find your put-down about freight, charter and Timbuktu a tad offensive for someone who has just subscribed to PPrune in order to make this first post.
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Fascinating!
Fascinating!Three whole pages of erudite text, correctly spelled, and relevant to the argument. Not a put down in sight 'till two back, which would appear to have come from someone outside the discussion age group. And they force us to retire.
Re. SIA retirement. It remains sixty. New contract on different terms may be offered to (currently) age sixty-two for expats. I'm not sure about the locals. Due to the downturn this option is not currently being offered.
Re. SIA retirement. It remains sixty. New contract on different terms may be offered to (currently) age sixty-two for expats. I'm not sure about the locals. Due to the downturn this option is not currently being offered.
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USA and European Over-Age-60 Participation Rates
As a follow-up to my earlier requests, would anyone be able to provide some data regarding the actual number of pilots who are staying employed at various airlines after age 60, since the restrictions at those airlines were lifted?
I would be particularly interested in any data from the major U.S. airlines, given that the mandatory age 60 restriction expired for all pilots on the same day.
Fear-mongers among many junior pilots often refer to a "five-year" hold-back in career progress due to the additional five potential years at the top, but my suspicion is that the majority of pilots still leave their employment as soon as they are able to get retirement without any pension penalties for leaving early, and that the actual participation rate among the over-60 group is quite small. Hard numbers, namely, the percentage that stayed on of those eligible to stay on, would be most helpful.
With thanks in advance!
I would be particularly interested in any data from the major U.S. airlines, given that the mandatory age 60 restriction expired for all pilots on the same day.
Fear-mongers among many junior pilots often refer to a "five-year" hold-back in career progress due to the additional five potential years at the top, but my suspicion is that the majority of pilots still leave their employment as soon as they are able to get retirement without any pension penalties for leaving early, and that the actual participation rate among the over-60 group is quite small. Hard numbers, namely, the percentage that stayed on of those eligible to stay on, would be most helpful.
With thanks in advance!
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I am pleased to read some pilots might be able to continue flying beyond 65 if they want to. No-one is forcing them to do against their will but it is nice to see in some parts of the world that might be a possibility.
I do not think they should be restricted to flying freight-why?
Up until a couple of years ago an airline forced all pilots to retire at 55 whether they wanted to or not. In those past couple of years some of their pilots have reached their 55th birthdays and a lot have decided to continue flying, that should indicate very clearly what the majority of pilots want to do-not retire at the earliest opportunity mainly because they still enjoy working in their chosen profession.
I do not think they should be restricted to flying freight-why?
Up until a couple of years ago an airline forced all pilots to retire at 55 whether they wanted to or not. In those past couple of years some of their pilots have reached their 55th birthdays and a lot have decided to continue flying, that should indicate very clearly what the majority of pilots want to do-not retire at the earliest opportunity mainly because they still enjoy working in their chosen profession.
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For those not aware the Canadian Parliament outlawed discrimination on the basis of age in all matters related to employment, with a few very, very narrow exemptions, in 1977...
Now some pilots after benefiting from the normal retirement age (60) at Air Canada want to stay on top of the pay pyramid...but hey for the last 30 years they were enjoying the carer progression the age 60 retirement was providing them.
Now some pilots after benefiting from the normal retirement age (60) at Air Canada want to stay on top of the pay pyramid...but hey for the last 30 years they were enjoying the carer progression the age 60 retirement was providing them.
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Ad hominen, ad finitum, ad nauseam
That makes two posts now by two different AC pilots, that contribute ad hominem drivel, completely off the subject of the thread (data, in case it wasn't noticed), detracting, rather than adding to the essence of the discussion here.
Embarrassing.
Embarrassing.
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Raymond,
to answer your intial question concerning retirement ages.
65 is the answer but airlines in some countries permit pilots to fly past 65 without any problems which you will have already read.
The current retirment age for pilots has not changed for almost half century and was well over due to be reviewed.
to answer your intial question concerning retirement ages.
65 is the answer but airlines in some countries permit pilots to fly past 65 without any problems which you will have already read.
The current retirment age for pilots has not changed for almost half century and was well over due to be reviewed.
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Thank you, Jean-Lill
Many thanks. With the age law now implemented in France, has Air France changed its mandatory retirement age yet?
Still looking for facts re mandatory retirement at Lufthansa, as well.
Still looking for facts re mandatory retirement at Lufthansa, as well.
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I have not heard that the 4 day Air France pilots strike changed anything, perhaps some AF pilots could comment on that.
As far as I am aware they currently retire at 60 but a group of the senior pilots want to carry on until 65 on voluntary basis. That is what the strike was about-the option which they feared would become compulsory.
As far as I am aware they currently retire at 60 but a group of the senior pilots want to carry on until 65 on voluntary basis. That is what the strike was about-the option which they feared would become compulsory.
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Nice post Picture
I too am making my 1st post to commend u on the first sensible post in these 3 pages despite what Lord Lucan says. Let the over 60's go somewhere else where they wont be a safety hazard. Unfortunately, their ego's and greed wont let them go. Now the rest of us are held back in our careers for their lack of retirement planning.
I flew with a 63 and a 64 yr. old (GV corporate) -and it wasnt pretty. They had great experience and knowledge but motor skills deminished. There's a reason why u dont see World Chess Champions winning in their golden years.
I flew with a 63 and a 64 yr. old (GV corporate) -and it wasnt pretty. They had great experience and knowledge but motor skills deminished. There's a reason why u dont see World Chess Champions winning in their golden years.
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Maresias-----I would be careful with such unfounded general comments about age 60+pilots. Psycho/Motor skills don't magically disappear on ones 60th B-Day. You have observed two seasoned pilots as have I in my 40 yrs of Military/Airline aviation career, but I have also flown with those many years younger that fit that same scenario.
Some older guys have also lost so called established pensions, experienced life changes etc which are not planned. If their skill set and health allow them to continue they can hardly be classed as a safety risk.
Some older guys have also lost so called established pensions, experienced life changes etc which are not planned. If their skill set and health allow them to continue they can hardly be classed as a safety risk.
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but motor skills deminished. There's a reason why u dont see World Chess Champions winning in their golden years.
Now the rest of us are held back in our careers for their lack of retirement planning.
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As a follow-up to my earlier requests, would anyone be able to provide some data regarding the actual number of pilots who are staying employed at various airlines after age 60, since the restrictions at those airlines were lifted?
I would be particularly interested in any data from the major U.S. airlines, given that the mandatory age 60 restriction expired for all pilots on the same day.
Fear-mongers among many junior pilots often refer to a "five-year" hold-back in career progress due to the additional five potential years at the top, but my suspicion is that the majority of pilots still leave their employment as soon as they are able to get retirement without any pension penalties for leaving early, and that the actual participation rate among the over-60 group is quite small. Hard numbers, namely, the percentage that stayed on of those eligible to stay on, would be most helpful.
I would be particularly interested in any data from the major U.S. airlines, given that the mandatory age 60 restriction expired for all pilots on the same day.
Fear-mongers among many junior pilots often refer to a "five-year" hold-back in career progress due to the additional five potential years at the top, but my suspicion is that the majority of pilots still leave their employment as soon as they are able to get retirement without any pension penalties for leaving early, and that the actual participation rate among the over-60 group is quite small. Hard numbers, namely, the percentage that stayed on of those eligible to stay on, would be most helpful.
We have an excellent pension, equal to half of a pilot's pay average for his/her highest five years. For the majority that is over $120,000 a year. We also have a healthy "B" fund.
But our retirements came to a standstill after the rule changed. Under age 60, they were around 200 a year - now they are around 20.
I had a 757 captain training date prior to the age change. It was subsequently cancelled and I assure you that my career progression has been stalled by at least five years.
The truly amazing thing is this: the age 65 rule was one of the biggest changes to FAA regulation in history, and it was done without one iota of scientific research. For such a hidebound organization it was a truly remarkable gamble.
Think of the worst pilot you ever flew with. Now think of him/her at age 64. It's not the median that matters, it's the fringes. And the flying public gets to participate, unwillingly, in this grand experiment.....
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There is no grand experiment here, what differance does 5 years make?
The answer is the younger pilots might have to wait 5 years longer to get a command or transfer on to a larger aircraft type-nothing more.
The 60 year old age barrier has been in place for 4 decades+. 60 used to be a much older age in the 1960's than it is today. We have to move on and cannot live in past for ever.
For those of you who do not like the overdue change, your day will come and you will no doubt be glad then that you will have the opportunity to fly for 5 years more.
The retirement age should have been changed years ago. Look how wonderful the 57 year old pilot who ditched in the Hudson was. What further proof does one need that years of experience is an advantage and not a disadvantage?
65 is not so old nowadays, you will all be there one day.
The answer is the younger pilots might have to wait 5 years longer to get a command or transfer on to a larger aircraft type-nothing more.
The 60 year old age barrier has been in place for 4 decades+. 60 used to be a much older age in the 1960's than it is today. We have to move on and cannot live in past for ever.
For those of you who do not like the overdue change, your day will come and you will no doubt be glad then that you will have the opportunity to fly for 5 years more.
The retirement age should have been changed years ago. Look how wonderful the 57 year old pilot who ditched in the Hudson was. What further proof does one need that years of experience is an advantage and not a disadvantage?
65 is not so old nowadays, you will all be there one day.
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Competency Is A "Given"
I hope that the thread doesn't get too far off track...
In our hearings before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, competency was not in issue, it was a given. The reason being that professional pilot competency is not generally the domain of those deciding the mandatory retirement age, if any.
In Canada, there is no regulated mandatory retirement age. There hasn't been since the passage of the federal law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of age, decades ago. Because licensing is determined by the regulator through the use of frequent and recurrent tests of both medical and professional competency, there isn't a need for a "blanket" age prohibition based on assumed (lack of) competency.
So the issue here is not whether age affects competency--competency is assumed. The issue the I posed at the outset is, how are companies changing their mandatory retirement policies re age, where those policies exist, as a result of the industry changes, and in particular, as a result of the ICAO changes re Pilot-In-Command, that were made effective in November, 2006?
Perhaps a separate thread on the competency issue would be a good place to debate that issue.
In our hearings before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, competency was not in issue, it was a given. The reason being that professional pilot competency is not generally the domain of those deciding the mandatory retirement age, if any.
In Canada, there is no regulated mandatory retirement age. There hasn't been since the passage of the federal law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of age, decades ago. Because licensing is determined by the regulator through the use of frequent and recurrent tests of both medical and professional competency, there isn't a need for a "blanket" age prohibition based on assumed (lack of) competency.
So the issue here is not whether age affects competency--competency is assumed. The issue the I posed at the outset is, how are companies changing their mandatory retirement policies re age, where those policies exist, as a result of the industry changes, and in particular, as a result of the ICAO changes re Pilot-In-Command, that were made effective in November, 2006?
Perhaps a separate thread on the competency issue would be a good place to debate that issue.
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Tyrolean Airways, Austria
app. 600 pilots
no company retirement requirements, but Austria will not renew commercial/ATP licenses past 65 (as all JAR countries).
Pilots usually retire when eligible for state pension with that age slowly increasing to 65.
Currently almost no pilots working past 60 because there aren't any in that age group but I'd expect many to stay past 60 as leaving earlier would mean big cuts to state pension payments.
It will be interesting if the new age 65 "barrier" will be eventually challenged as age discrimination. It is as arbitrary as the age 60 rule was.
app. 600 pilots
no company retirement requirements, but Austria will not renew commercial/ATP licenses past 65 (as all JAR countries).
Pilots usually retire when eligible for state pension with that age slowly increasing to 65.
Currently almost no pilots working past 60 because there aren't any in that age group but I'd expect many to stay past 60 as leaving earlier would mean big cuts to state pension payments.
It will be interesting if the new age 65 "barrier" will be eventually challenged as age discrimination. It is as arbitrary as the age 60 rule was.
