FAA proposes 40-48 hour rest after 'ultra-long-range flights'
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FAA proposes 40-48 hour rest after 'ultra-long-range flights'
Excerpted from today’s Wall Street Journal (subscription may be required):
Would North American or Western European pilots really want 40-48 hour layovers in India (or other Asian cities after “ultra-long-range flights“? It has been questioned on another BB.
Bucking opposition from U.S. airlines, federal regulators have issued rules aimed at reducing the hazards of pilot fatigue during the longest international flights.
After 18 months of debate between some airline officials and the Federal Aviation Administration, the agency intends to impose tougher crew-rest requirements and other safety measures on flights operated by AMR Corp.'s American Airlines and Continental Airlines Inc. between the U.S. and India. Over time, the rules are designed to apply to all U.S. carriers flying so-called ultra-long-range flights, which can last 16 hours or longer.
The new rules mandate that pilots on the longest routes get at least 40 to 48 hours of rest after arriving, for example, in India from the East Coast of the U.S. Rules now require shorter rests.(snip)
After 18 months of debate between some airline officials and the Federal Aviation Administration, the agency intends to impose tougher crew-rest requirements and other safety measures on flights operated by AMR Corp.'s American Airlines and Continental Airlines Inc. between the U.S. and India. Over time, the rules are designed to apply to all U.S. carriers flying so-called ultra-long-range flights, which can last 16 hours or longer.
The new rules mandate that pilots on the longest routes get at least 40 to 48 hours of rest after arriving, for example, in India from the East Coast of the U.S. Rules now require shorter rests.(snip)
After 16 hours in the air is a Pilot suitably rested and refeshed to do a return flight.
It will depend on the age, fitness of the pilot but allowing downtime to fully recover must surely be in the interests of safety.
It will depend on the age, fitness of the pilot but allowing downtime to fully recover must surely be in the interests of safety.
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Would North American or Western European pilots really want 40-48 hour layovers in India (or other Asian cities after “ultra-long-range flights“?
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Personally, from a rest point of view with ULH work I prefer to have 2 sleep patterns, so 32-38 hour slips work nicely, allowing 2 hours to chill, 8 sleep, 16 awake then another 8 sleeping [note 56-62 hours even better!]
The 24 hour slip patterns that UK-East Coast USA generate with 2 crew don't work well for me. For those trips 14-18 hour slips are better.
Each to their own, but I don't see what location the slip is in makes any difference, it's more about managing your rest. Being somewhere new and exploring is a bonus to me.
The 24 hour slip patterns that UK-East Coast USA generate with 2 crew don't work well for me. For those trips 14-18 hour slips are better.
Each to their own, but I don't see what location the slip is in makes any difference, it's more about managing your rest. Being somewhere new and exploring is a bonus to me.
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Maybe I am missing something here.
If you operate for 16 hours, the next 12 you will spend sleeping in the hotel.
Then you will be awake for possibly the next 12 hours.
Adding another 12 plus hours to this crew rest will allow you to sleep again and get your body clock back in order.
You cant operate 16 hours then operate back home and be alert.
Dont know where this would be allowed anyway.
Nor can you operate 16 hours, rest for 12, awake for 12 more , report for duty after this, I hope this is what they are trying to change, more rest, body clock adjustment etc, Sure this one is done often, but not so safe.
This is a good idea from the FAA.
Seems they may be waking up to this issue.
If you operate for 16 hours, the next 12 you will spend sleeping in the hotel.
Then you will be awake for possibly the next 12 hours.
Adding another 12 plus hours to this crew rest will allow you to sleep again and get your body clock back in order.
You cant operate 16 hours then operate back home and be alert.
Dont know where this would be allowed anyway.
Nor can you operate 16 hours, rest for 12, awake for 12 more , report for duty after this, I hope this is what they are trying to change, more rest, body clock adjustment etc, Sure this one is done often, but not so safe.
This is a good idea from the FAA.
Seems they may be waking up to this issue.
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The only people I've ever known sleep for 12 hours are of 'the female persuasion'! Only wimmin can knock off those hours in bed asleep- never understood how they do it. Most men seem to get from 4 to 7 hours, sometimes more if helped off by fermented hop water. Our ULH agreement was for 2 local nights before and after. Worked fine. You knew that if you had alleviations to that, they would become the norm! People don't understand that rather than the extra day being at home, it would make an extra day available to be rostered.
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Similar required rest provisions have been in ALPA contracts from time to time but the folks who commute tend to complain because it keeps them from putting trips back to back to minimize the number of reports (times you show up to start a trip).
Also, with double crewed long haul flights (e.g. ATL-ICN, EWR-PEK), you would spend more time away from base even though you rested for half the flight time. Since many U.S. airlines no longer have a trip rig, you spend more days away from home for about the same pay (you would get some extra perdiem).
In the U.S. it is not unheard of for pilots to commute a couple of thousand miles and then do a Pac Rim crossing without any rest in between. I've never been too crazy about this concept. So far the feds and the company seem to look the other way on this "transportation not local in character". Kinda like the UAL captain who was fatigued in HKG unless he got a pay protected trip drop, the right to commute without crew rest is seen as an entitlement by many coworkers.
Also, with double crewed long haul flights (e.g. ATL-ICN, EWR-PEK), you would spend more time away from base even though you rested for half the flight time. Since many U.S. airlines no longer have a trip rig, you spend more days away from home for about the same pay (you would get some extra perdiem).
In the U.S. it is not unheard of for pilots to commute a couple of thousand miles and then do a Pac Rim crossing without any rest in between. I've never been too crazy about this concept. So far the feds and the company seem to look the other way on this "transportation not local in character". Kinda like the UAL captain who was fatigued in HKG unless he got a pay protected trip drop, the right to commute without crew rest is seen as an entitlement by many coworkers.
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You are correct Rainboe, lucky to get 6 hours sleep, I meant to say rest time, not sleep time.
By the time you get 6 hours sleep and the travel from the aircraft, immigration, hotel etc, you are dead.
12 hours rest just don't cut it.
Bet the bean counters are hating this one.
Not the same for them as selling tooth brushes ha ha.
By the time you get 6 hours sleep and the travel from the aircraft, immigration, hotel etc, you are dead.
12 hours rest just don't cut it.
Bet the bean counters are hating this one.
Not the same for them as selling tooth brushes ha ha.
Last edited by Earl; 16th Nov 2008 at 17:49.
Does the location matter if you've got a decent hotel ? Comfortable bed, cable tv, pool, gym, nice menu in the coffee shop, internet access. If you don't go outside wouldn't it all be the same ?
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I think, as has already been said above, that we're our own worst enemies in this. Whenever this subject comes up, there's always a "I prefer min. time on the layover so I can have more time at home" man who throws his opinion in, (as is his right, but I'm sure to the absolute delight of the bean counters). However, as someone who's had quite enough of the 24 hr turnarounds and the "rest"(!) I DON'T get on such turnarounds, I really wish such people could see how destructive to the lifestyles - if not the health - of the majority their preference is. I'm often as not shattered for the trip home having had little to no effective rest - and absolutely knackered for the first 24 hours after I get home.
I'd hate to think of having to handle a really curly emergency thrown in with a diversion to alternate at the end of the second sector on one of these flights. I don't think there'd be too many of us who'd believe he/she was at 100% or even close to it after our stay in the aft torpedo tube - or, God forbid, four or five hours "rest" in a Business Class seat.
I'd hate to think of having to handle a really curly emergency thrown in with a diversion to alternate at the end of the second sector on one of these flights. I don't think there'd be too many of us who'd believe he/she was at 100% or even close to it after our stay in the aft torpedo tube - or, God forbid, four or five hours "rest" in a Business Class seat.
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It's definitely not a matter of what you prefer, it's about flight safety.
There is enough serious research to prove that for ULR a 24h rest doesn't do the trick, you need two sleep patterns unless you like performing as if under influence of alcohol. Personally I have flown with enough heroes who deliberately work against this physical evidence, by commuting extensively or by bidding for multiple ULR/LR in a row, just to get one more day off and lie around like a stranded whale. None of them has impressed me with even adequate performance in the late phase of duty. Neither did I, but I at least try to avoid such patterns and try to convince collegues, regulators and managers that disregarding our physical capacity is futile and simply criminal.
There is enough serious research to prove that for ULR a 24h rest doesn't do the trick, you need two sleep patterns unless you like performing as if under influence of alcohol. Personally I have flown with enough heroes who deliberately work against this physical evidence, by commuting extensively or by bidding for multiple ULR/LR in a row, just to get one more day off and lie around like a stranded whale. None of them has impressed me with even adequate performance in the late phase of duty. Neither did I, but I at least try to avoid such patterns and try to convince collegues, regulators and managers that disregarding our physical capacity is futile and simply criminal.
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After a 4-pilot ULR flight I'm not tired at all. I have been able to sleep for a few hours and I feel much more fit than after a 2-pilot flight.
A longer rest period leads to more consumption of the time difference.
Some companies prescribe 2 local night rests after a ULR flight, which are usually spend in local night life.
A longer rest period leads to more consumption of the time difference.
Some companies prescribe 2 local night rests after a ULR flight, which are usually spend in local night life.
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Congratulations FAA! 
I'm working under UK rules, even not being in UK, and that is something hard to understand for a pilot. It is all about "legal" and "not legal", "if .. go to paragraph" and nobody cares about safety, logic and common sense.
We all need time to recover after a long flight. Tbe rest should be calculated under a conservative way to cover the whole crew and not only the young and healthy ones.
Keep going FAA!
I'm working under UK rules, even not being in UK, and that is something hard to understand for a pilot. It is all about "legal" and "not legal", "if .. go to paragraph" and nobody cares about safety, logic and common sense.
We all need time to recover after a long flight. Tbe rest should be calculated under a conservative way to cover the whole crew and not only the young and healthy ones.
Keep going FAA!
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Would North American or Western European pilots really want 40-48 hour layovers in India (or other Asian cities after “ultra-long-range flights“? It has been questioned on another BB.
FWIW, India is a wonderful place. It is Washington that frightens me.