GF -072 :Very inexperienced flight crew?
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Jennifer Lopez,
If you knew anything about human factors you would know that departing from SOPS is recognised as a rule-based error and can therefore be committed by inexperienced and experienced pilot's alike. However, provided the basic training in procedures is rigorous, the likelyhood of rule-based errors is almost eradicated, regardless of experience levels. Therefore, BMPilot21's post is a valid one.
If you knew anything about human factors you would know that departing from SOPS is recognised as a rule-based error and can therefore be committed by inexperienced and experienced pilot's alike. However, provided the basic training in procedures is rigorous, the likelyhood of rule-based errors is almost eradicated, regardless of experience levels. Therefore, BMPilot21's post is a valid one.
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Somatogravic Illusions -
The false pitch-down illusion
http://www.ozemail.com.au/%7Eaupa/PDF_files/SDF.pdf
http://www.gretmar.com/webdoctor/dnt.html
http://wwwsam.brooks.af.mil/af/files...hapter_04.html
http://whittsflying.com/Pagea7Hood%2...0illusions.htm
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/reports/air/1996/ea96c0002.html
http://john.berkeley.edu/Projects/linearAccelTxt.html
http://www.vnh.org/FSManual/03/05Vestibular.html
http://www.avmed.org.nz/http://www.n...al/Medical.htm
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/ENG/reports/air...ea97c0236.html
http://john.berkeley.edu/Projects/SGIllusion.html
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...009550-16.html
The false pitch-down illusion
http://www.ozemail.com.au/%7Eaupa/PDF_files/SDF.pdf
http://www.gretmar.com/webdoctor/dnt.html
http://wwwsam.brooks.af.mil/af/files...hapter_04.html
http://whittsflying.com/Pagea7Hood%2...0illusions.htm
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/reports/air/1996/ea96c0002.html
http://john.berkeley.edu/Projects/linearAccelTxt.html
http://www.vnh.org/FSManual/03/05Vestibular.html
http://www.avmed.org.nz/http://www.n...al/Medical.htm
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/ENG/reports/air...ea97c0236.html
http://john.berkeley.edu/Projects/SGIllusion.html
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...009550-16.html
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A close study of Gulf Air's A320 SOP's can explain a lot about the prevailing culture at this myopic and xenophobic company. As an example, in any flight, as PF, the First Officer first gets to handle the Thrust Levers at the Thrust Reduction Altitude, i.e 1500 ft. agl. No engine starts, no taxiing, no application of power on take-off.
Imagine the image of left-seat autonomy that this generates in the mind of the FO. Gulf Air remain in the Dark Ages as regards C.R.M also, and I personally attribute this to the insecurity concerning possible superiority of expatriate pilots that prevails amongst many of the Gulf nationals, and particularly within the management ranks.
(Was the same at Qatar Airways until recently...infusion of expat management is moving things forward now)
Imagine the image of left-seat autonomy that this generates in the mind of the FO. Gulf Air remain in the Dark Ages as regards C.R.M also, and I personally attribute this to the insecurity concerning possible superiority of expatriate pilots that prevails amongst many of the Gulf nationals, and particularly within the management ranks.
(Was the same at Qatar Airways until recently...infusion of expat management is moving things forward now)
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MissChief..
IMHO ...The Gulf Air standard throttle handling and other operational points you raise are inherited from when BA trained GF pilots on the VC10 and the Tristars in 1974/6
Also interesting in the light of GF072 crash.
On non and precision approaches the BA monitored approach system was (where the Fo flew the approach and the Captain monitored) also taught to GF by these same BA trainers, but in Gulf Airs wisdom the monitored approach system had been THROWN OUT and the 072 Captain was now trained and required to fly approaches in IMC.
The BA monitored approach inmho goes a long way to minimising this Somatogrovic illusion problem and thanks to Belgique for the web refs.
The Tsb report,para 1-18-2 says a lot and combined with the above gets you an accident.
In defence of Gulf Air they were interested (in their own way)in CRM prior to 072 and a memo asking for any pilot interested to teach crm on his 6days off a month and possibly to other airlines got few replies.
In my experiance gulf national pilots do not feel inferior and are not inferior to expat pilots, we all strove together to be safe operators.
National trainers constantly demonstrate their superior knowledge on checks, and a wise expat accommodates.
An exercise in stress management that teaches all concerned patience and pays the mortgage.
National trainers were I am sure as schocked as we all were at the 072 flight path,and that it was allowed to happen by a national crew which they had checked and trained.
However nobody should forget the 767 at Narobi with 200 plus soles on board.
This was nearly a crash and another case of flight path and speed deviations being recorded and this time by a totally expat two man crew.
These aircraft donot discriminate and are not politically correct.
Change a system or change a management or ignore a manufacturers recomendation it does not always result in improvements.
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 26 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 26 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 26 May 2001).]
IMHO ...The Gulf Air standard throttle handling and other operational points you raise are inherited from when BA trained GF pilots on the VC10 and the Tristars in 1974/6
Also interesting in the light of GF072 crash.
On non and precision approaches the BA monitored approach system was (where the Fo flew the approach and the Captain monitored) also taught to GF by these same BA trainers, but in Gulf Airs wisdom the monitored approach system had been THROWN OUT and the 072 Captain was now trained and required to fly approaches in IMC.
The BA monitored approach inmho goes a long way to minimising this Somatogrovic illusion problem and thanks to Belgique for the web refs.
The Tsb report,para 1-18-2 says a lot and combined with the above gets you an accident.
In defence of Gulf Air they were interested (in their own way)in CRM prior to 072 and a memo asking for any pilot interested to teach crm on his 6days off a month and possibly to other airlines got few replies.
In my experiance gulf national pilots do not feel inferior and are not inferior to expat pilots, we all strove together to be safe operators.
National trainers constantly demonstrate their superior knowledge on checks, and a wise expat accommodates.
An exercise in stress management that teaches all concerned patience and pays the mortgage.
National trainers were I am sure as schocked as we all were at the 072 flight path,and that it was allowed to happen by a national crew which they had checked and trained.
However nobody should forget the 767 at Narobi with 200 plus soles on board.
This was nearly a crash and another case of flight path and speed deviations being recorded and this time by a totally expat two man crew.
These aircraft donot discriminate and are not politically correct.
Change a system or change a management or ignore a manufacturers recomendation it does not always result in improvements.
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 26 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 26 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 26 May 2001).]
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Jennifer Lopez,
I've never been hit by a bus, but I know that being hit by one would hurt! Incidentally, I am led to believe being hit by a bus is equally painful to a non British/Dutch person.
If you stick to the green cross code/SOPS! then you have a framework for crossing the road/operating an aircraft that will apply equally as well to a 5 year old/200hr inexperienced FO....
Kindest regards,
Calltheball (British/Dutch and allowed to cross the road on my own)
I've never been hit by a bus, but I know that being hit by one would hurt! Incidentally, I am led to believe being hit by a bus is equally painful to a non British/Dutch person.
If you stick to the green cross code/SOPS! then you have a framework for crossing the road/operating an aircraft that will apply equally as well to a 5 year old/200hr inexperienced FO....
Kindest regards,
Calltheball (British/Dutch and allowed to cross the road on my own)
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BmPilot21,
I agree with you that well trained low time first officers are capable of performing successfully (and do, having just returned from a multi-day duty with a very new copilot who made my few days a breeze due to his competence). I would not, though, get too excited about the so called fantastic training provided by your country and company, although i'm sure it was very good, I think you'll find that the training you speak of can be found world wide. What is important is the individuals approach and execution of his/her training and profession, as you have aptly mentioned.
I believe that the root cause of this accident lays with the companies command selection procedures and has less to do with the experience level of the first officer.
I agree with you that well trained low time first officers are capable of performing successfully (and do, having just returned from a multi-day duty with a very new copilot who made my few days a breeze due to his competence). I would not, though, get too excited about the so called fantastic training provided by your country and company, although i'm sure it was very good, I think you'll find that the training you speak of can be found world wide. What is important is the individuals approach and execution of his/her training and profession, as you have aptly mentioned.
I believe that the root cause of this accident lays with the companies command selection procedures and has less to do with the experience level of the first officer.
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-Roadrunner;"Pilots should be accepted with due regard to ability and not, as is sometimes the case, based on who they know. This is a problem particularly in Asia."
Sad to say,but you even donīt have to go to asia to encounter this kind of pilot hirings.Take a look around in europe, I know a national flag carrier there where we see the same scenario....
rgds, avoidsharpturn
Sad to say,but you even donīt have to go to asia to encounter this kind of pilot hirings.Take a look around in europe, I know a national flag carrier there where we see the same scenario....
rgds, avoidsharpturn
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As the Somatogravic Illusion is said to affect all the flight deck crew and basically cause them to become antifuncional in the correct control of the aircraft flight path, could this illusion be the cause of the lack of total crew reaction in both the Stains Trident and the GF 072 pitch and rock and roll gyrations?
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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
