Only approach is NDB - is this 2008?
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 45
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't believe nobody has mentioned the fact that one of the busiest international airports in the World uses a visual NPA even with serviceable ILS and consistently has multiple RW change.....
Waiting for 411 to tell us how JFK is the best airport in the World etc now.....
Waiting for 411 to tell us how JFK is the best airport in the World etc now.....
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can recall being SLF on a particularly exciting (Kai Tak esqe) approach into MJV on eveyone's favourite LCC.
Must have been a visual app as a steep banking left turn from downwind all the way around to line up almost short finals for 05.
Speed brakes were out all the way to wings level and final stage of flap shortly thereafter...!
Seat gripping stuff!
(I hasten to add it was a glorious, clear, bright suuny day!)
Must have been a visual app as a steep banking left turn from downwind all the way around to line up almost short finals for 05.
Speed brakes were out all the way to wings level and final stage of flap shortly thereafter...!
Seat gripping stuff!
(I hasten to add it was a glorious, clear, bright suuny day!)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Comjam,
You guys got FMS now? beats trying to program the gps on the centre console in the 30 degrees heat of Cyprus trying not to look down and get sweat on your sunglasses.
Anyway step away from PPrune - get down to MJV, do a few runs, get it all calibrated then we can all go back to drinking our coffee.
on the other hand, if they stop us flying to MJV, we might be able to fit in a game of golf next year
FPS
You guys got FMS now? beats trying to program the gps on the centre console in the 30 degrees heat of Cyprus trying not to look down and get sweat on your sunglasses.
Anyway step away from PPrune - get down to MJV, do a few runs, get it all calibrated then we can all go back to drinking our coffee.
on the other hand, if they stop us flying to MJV, we might be able to fit in a game of golf next year
FPS
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I take it that many of the posts on here are made tongue in cheek?
Are pilots being responsible in complaining on here about unserviceabilities of landing aids, or do they enjoy the fun of not knowing what sort of approach it will be until the last moment, or do they just enjoy the adrenaline run of doing something different?
Do any of the protesters actually take any action for things to be fixed? Did you notify your company and did they do anything about it?
Did you notify your pilots union and did they pursue the issue?
Did you notify your own aviation authority and receive confirmation of the action/correction taken?
I hope the general answers will confirm that the pilot community is as responsible as they should be, but I doubt it!
Are pilots being responsible in complaining on here about unserviceabilities of landing aids, or do they enjoy the fun of not knowing what sort of approach it will be until the last moment, or do they just enjoy the adrenaline run of doing something different?
Do any of the protesters actually take any action for things to be fixed? Did you notify your company and did they do anything about it?
Did you notify your pilots union and did they pursue the issue?
Did you notify your own aviation authority and receive confirmation of the action/correction taken?
I hope the general answers will confirm that the pilot community is as responsible as they should be, but I doubt it!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canary Islands, Spain
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not 100% sure about this, but I was told MJV is fully air force controlled, ATC and all. Therefore, it's gonna suck. Period. Nothing can be done about it.
If you want a little better service, where at least the guy in charge can get fired if he doesn't perform the job on par, shoot for a civil airport.
If you want a little better service, where at least the guy in charge can get fired if he doesn't perform the job on par, shoot for a civil airport.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: N/A
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest stunt MJV pulled was to have 2 aircraft on 2 different procedural approaches to the same runway - me on VHF other aircraft on UHF.
Controller finally deigns to inform me as we turn final that there is another aircraft on the approach but not where or his cleared level.
Not having a serviceable TCAS didn't help either!
Yep you need to be on your toes at MJV they find new ways to screw up every day.
Controller finally deigns to inform me as we turn final that there is another aircraft on the approach but not where or his cleared level.
Not having a serviceable TCAS didn't help either!
Yep you need to be on your toes at MJV they find new ways to screw up every day.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Switzerland ... oh wait: Swaziland
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could as well be KTW. Different airport - same ****, except no terrain...
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: EPKT
Age: 44
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could as well be KTW. Different airport - same ****, except no terrain...
And even it's not my fault to have to work last 11 months with LLZ approach (and NDB for the last month), I still felt ashamed of navigational aid provided. However, improvements are coming, years too late, but coming.
Well, their ILS is up and running since this afternoon (a bit more than a year after the famous Air Europa "landing").
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Switzerland ... oh wait: Swaziland
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and NDB for the last month
Air Europa near-crash had nothing to do with the later ILS-outage.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: EPKT
Age: 44
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They did blame the ILS-signal to be "oscillating" (or whatever), didn' they?
Full report is expected in february 2009, when it's published I'll post it in an original accident thread.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Every time I log in here, I get a message that I haven't posted in awhile, so here goes.
I've read all the postings on this particular airport navaid "problem" with interest. The only thing I haven't seen asked is WHY do those of you complaining you keep going back there with the same problems existing? I was NEVER "Forced" to fly anywhere during my career that I choose not to because of whatever reason. If you feel it is not safe enough, divert. Simple. If enough of you divert, maybe something will be done. On the other hand, if it's not as bad as some here are indicating, then all these posts are for naught.
I've read all the postings on this particular airport navaid "problem" with interest. The only thing I haven't seen asked is WHY do those of you complaining you keep going back there with the same problems existing? I was NEVER "Forced" to fly anywhere during my career that I choose not to because of whatever reason. If you feel it is not safe enough, divert. Simple. If enough of you divert, maybe something will be done. On the other hand, if it's not as bad as some here are indicating, then all these posts are for naught.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you feel it is not safe enough, divert. Simple.
"Old age and experience wil overcome youth and bullsh!t" as they say.
Would that it were that simple...
Quote from BOAC:
"Old age and experience wil overcome youth and bullsh!t" as they say.
[Unquote]
As an old fart, and a retired one at that, I have much sympathy with your sentiment. It's off the particular topic of the airfield in question, but in respect of the discussion it draws attention – as did manrow a few days ago, to an "elephant in the room".
DC-ATE says: "If enough of you divert, maybe something will be done". But, in relation to this specific discussion, he adds a caveat: "On the other hand, if it's not as bad as some here are indicating, then all these posts are for naught." By doing so, he encapsulates the dilemma that always faces you in this type of situation. Despite the unacceptable deficiencies, is it going to be safe for us to proceed this time?
And, if it is, but I decide to divert or cancel on a matter of principle – to the inconvenience of our passengers and the expense of the airline – how is it going to help when 60 other captains decide to proceed that morning from divers companies, maybe including one or two from my own, and land without recorded incident?
They are hardly going to admit later to having compromised the safety of their flights by proceeding. The fact that all of them may be younger, and with fewer hours than I have, will not persuade my management that – far from being a dinosaur or having lost my nerve and/or judgement – I was behaving responsibly and proportionately, in the light of superior knowledge and experience.
On the contrary, I am likely to find myself greeted less warmly than usual next time I share a briefing console with one of my management pilots, or even one of the ambitious union representatives. The same may apply the next time I meet my co-pilot, even though he supported me warmly and solidly on the day. My flight report and MOR are likely respectively to be relegated to the bin and categorised as a low risk. Anything for a trouble-free life... In the unlikely event that there should be an incident subsequently, they will pass the buck. And even I may start to wonder: "did I over-react?" and "have I done more harm than good?"
Something about the loneliness of command springs to mind.
"Old age and experience wil overcome youth and bullsh!t" as they say.
[Unquote]
As an old fart, and a retired one at that, I have much sympathy with your sentiment. It's off the particular topic of the airfield in question, but in respect of the discussion it draws attention – as did manrow a few days ago, to an "elephant in the room".
DC-ATE says: "If enough of you divert, maybe something will be done". But, in relation to this specific discussion, he adds a caveat: "On the other hand, if it's not as bad as some here are indicating, then all these posts are for naught." By doing so, he encapsulates the dilemma that always faces you in this type of situation. Despite the unacceptable deficiencies, is it going to be safe for us to proceed this time?
And, if it is, but I decide to divert or cancel on a matter of principle – to the inconvenience of our passengers and the expense of the airline – how is it going to help when 60 other captains decide to proceed that morning from divers companies, maybe including one or two from my own, and land without recorded incident?
They are hardly going to admit later to having compromised the safety of their flights by proceeding. The fact that all of them may be younger, and with fewer hours than I have, will not persuade my management that – far from being a dinosaur or having lost my nerve and/or judgement – I was behaving responsibly and proportionately, in the light of superior knowledge and experience.
On the contrary, I am likely to find myself greeted less warmly than usual next time I share a briefing console with one of my management pilots, or even one of the ambitious union representatives. The same may apply the next time I meet my co-pilot, even though he supported me warmly and solidly on the day. My flight report and MOR are likely respectively to be relegated to the bin and categorised as a low risk. Anything for a trouble-free life... In the unlikely event that there should be an incident subsequently, they will pass the buck. And even I may start to wonder: "did I over-react?" and "have I done more harm than good?"
Something about the loneliness of command springs to mind.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having never flown into the airport in question, I will end my participation on this topic by saying that it's up to the Captain, NOT company "pressure", "peer pressure", ATC, or anyone else, to decide to continue an approach. If you, as Captain, can't handle "that pressure", then perhaps you should move back to another seat.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's off the particular topic of the airfield in question,
.Let's focus on MJV, as AME said in #43, rather than '"I'm an ace and can brief 7 simultaneous approaches whilst playing poker with the F/E" and '"He's older than me so must be REALLY brain dead".
Was/is it acceptable in 2008 or not? As DC-ATE says, it either is or isn't. If it isn't, do something about it.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see a big problem. It's not an airport that has weather problems. We flew to airfields in North Africa that had no aids. You get close, see the field, go visual. This airport is quite identifiable on a bay. If it was up in Sweden one wouldn't be so happy, but we don't need a full suite of landing aids just because it's a fairly busy terminal. These places you do go visual, I think sometimes to insist on a full let down at a busy terminal is being a bit obstructively pedantic!
If you're going to lay your head on the line and decide to divert unnecessarily 'to make a point', then sure as eggs is eggs, someone will come along with an axe to 'give you the point'! And do most crew have a 'choice' about going there? Er....let's be real.....no!
If you're going to lay your head on the line and decide to divert unnecessarily 'to make a point', then sure as eggs is eggs, someone will come along with an axe to 'give you the point'! And do most crew have a 'choice' about going there? Er....let's be real.....no!