Is this bad pilot practice or am I being harsh?
Guest
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Jeez it's not like your sitting in some 60's turboprop, and the bloke is hand flying it. Your in an advanced jet airliner, with the autopilot engaged (the third man), a highly trained / vigilant pilot at the controls, ATC are watching you, TCAS is fitted, etc.
Also, w.r.t. 'after all is it not the case that heading and level instructions are confirmed with the other pilot before being input into the auto pilot'. Erhm, so just when are you suppposed to answer a call of nature ? e.g. I can see it now (somewhere over middle Italy, at FL330) "Roma please do not give us any ATC instructions for the next five minutes, whilst our Captain leaves the flightdeck to take a crap"...... get real !
Also, w.r.t. 'after all is it not the case that heading and level instructions are confirmed with the other pilot before being input into the auto pilot'. Erhm, so just when are you suppposed to answer a call of nature ? e.g. I can see it now (somewhere over middle Italy, at FL330) "Roma please do not give us any ATC instructions for the next five minutes, whilst our Captain leaves the flightdeck to take a crap"...... get real !
Guest
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Personally I do think that flight crews should do their best to look smart and professional at all times. Having seen some of the scruffy looking youths who fly for a certain airline from STN (not Go or buzz), if that's the sort of oik who flies for them then I certainly don't want to be a passenger on their airline!
As someone else has said - the hard working cabin crew are expected to look their best at all times and the flight crew should do the same.
As someone else has said - the hard working cabin crew are expected to look their best at all times and the flight crew should do the same.
Guest
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There's always a few who just have to answer a reasonable question with a snide 'put down'. I would hate to imagine what their CRM skills are like. 
The original poster asked a reasonable question, qualified it with a statement that he or she wasn't a pilot and then a few of you prove to everyone else that it only takes one or two sad gits with big ego's to make it appear as though we are all condescending "know it all's". No wonder the press have a field day winding us up.
Back to the subject, Zones, it will differ from company to company but the fact that you 'felt' the a/c descend may have not been a descent at all but just a decelleration. Quite often in that area, inbound to a London airport you may have been informed about holding and there is no need for anyone to rush into the holding pattern.
The a/c may have been descending but if the Captain had gone to answer a call of nature and seen a friend in the cabin and decided to have a chat then that is no big deal either. The F/O is more than capable of handling the a/c in a terminal area and indeed has to be able to do everything including land the thing in the event of an incapacitation.
It is far more difficult to do this sort of manouvering somewhere like the Greek islands or Spain where the accents can cause confusion or the 'bigger picture' is not as obvious due to some a/c being directed in their own language. When in the London area you will invariably find the controllers calm and eloquent which is not usually a problem for a pilot to reselect the ALT, hit FL CHG, twiddle the HDG SLCT knob or line select something on the FMC.
As for appearance, well that comes down to the attitude of the pilot. Not the end of the world but it doesn't take that much effort to have a quick peek in the mirror and do up at least two of the buttons. With or without tie should not even be a consideration.
Hope that answers the question in a slightly more civilised manner. Some of those other replies remind me of a Captain I once flew with who managed to make a 35 minute positioning flight feel like a 9 hour long haul sector. You finished the duty as fatigued and stressed because this one person knew it all and just had to let you know all the time how clever he was and you were not worthy to even ask a question.
It's always the pompous ones!
[This message has been edited by OzDude (edited 29 May 2001).]
The original poster asked a reasonable question, qualified it with a statement that he or she wasn't a pilot and then a few of you prove to everyone else that it only takes one or two sad gits with big ego's to make it appear as though we are all condescending "know it all's". No wonder the press have a field day winding us up.
Back to the subject, Zones, it will differ from company to company but the fact that you 'felt' the a/c descend may have not been a descent at all but just a decelleration. Quite often in that area, inbound to a London airport you may have been informed about holding and there is no need for anyone to rush into the holding pattern.
The a/c may have been descending but if the Captain had gone to answer a call of nature and seen a friend in the cabin and decided to have a chat then that is no big deal either. The F/O is more than capable of handling the a/c in a terminal area and indeed has to be able to do everything including land the thing in the event of an incapacitation.
It is far more difficult to do this sort of manouvering somewhere like the Greek islands or Spain where the accents can cause confusion or the 'bigger picture' is not as obvious due to some a/c being directed in their own language. When in the London area you will invariably find the controllers calm and eloquent which is not usually a problem for a pilot to reselect the ALT, hit FL CHG, twiddle the HDG SLCT knob or line select something on the FMC.
As for appearance, well that comes down to the attitude of the pilot. Not the end of the world but it doesn't take that much effort to have a quick peek in the mirror and do up at least two of the buttons. With or without tie should not even be a consideration.
Hope that answers the question in a slightly more civilised manner. Some of those other replies remind me of a Captain I once flew with who managed to make a 35 minute positioning flight feel like a 9 hour long haul sector. You finished the duty as fatigued and stressed because this one person knew it all and just had to let you know all the time how clever he was and you were not worthy to even ask a question.
It's always the pompous ones!
[This message has been edited by OzDude (edited 29 May 2001).]
Guest
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We seem to have got off the thread here. The question wasn't so much what the guy's sartorial sense was(although it could have been better), but whether he should have been on the flightdeck. Sure we all have to answer the call of nature, especially those of us whom age has blessed with a very short-haul bladder, but I would have thought that any change in the aircraft's attitude, speed or power setting would have most captains scurrying back to the pointed end. Could be the other pilot has been incapacitated? Could be his workload is building up? As for "one pilot, one autopilot and TCAS is enough", not in the London TMA it isn't. Ore am I just getting too old and crusty?
Guest
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The question is well made. London to Edinburgh / Glasgow is a short and busy sector. If you are doing your job properly there is not enough time to go back for a chat, possibly a quick pee and that's it. Certainly the Captain should be at the controls during such a busy sector to verify ATC calls with his F/O.
I expect the F/O was getting quite worried and was probably considering dinging the call button to ask if there was any chance of the Captain comimg back!
I expect the F/O was getting quite worried and was probably considering dinging the call button to ask if there was any chance of the Captain comimg back!
Guest
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Why on earth would a competent F/O be worried about doing his job?
A qualified pilot needs to be at the controls. I couldn't care less if he is Training Captain, Captain, SFO, FO or SO. As long as he has passed a recognised training course he or she should be perfectly competent to fly he aeroplane on his own with the wing on fire & hydraulics shot to bits. Normal day to day Ops should be a piece of cake.
GA
ps. perfectly reasonable question IMHO.
A qualified pilot needs to be at the controls. I couldn't care less if he is Training Captain, Captain, SFO, FO or SO. As long as he has passed a recognised training course he or she should be perfectly competent to fly he aeroplane on his own with the wing on fire & hydraulics shot to bits. Normal day to day Ops should be a piece of cake.
GA
ps. perfectly reasonable question IMHO.
Guest
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One of the few things that really p1zzes me off in this industry is pilots who take themselves too seriously. Flaps 5, I think that you might be one of those. There is plenty of time to go for a pee on an EDI LHR.
The "box" will have been set up, briefing will be standard (probably) RT is being monitored under active radar control, a/c is on autopilot and there isn't exactly a lot if hills around BHX area. What more is there to do?
As for dress, I see nothing wrong with top button undone with no tie. It looks a damn site better than top button undone with your tie hanging around your waist.
The original question was a valid one and has received some valid answers. A good discussion point.
Barcode and CRP5, god help me if I have to fly with you and the **** should hit the fan. If your colleague in the other seat came up with a reasonable suggestion that you do not agree with would your reaction be the same? I hope not.
The "box" will have been set up, briefing will be standard (probably) RT is being monitored under active radar control, a/c is on autopilot and there isn't exactly a lot if hills around BHX area. What more is there to do?
As for dress, I see nothing wrong with top button undone with no tie. It looks a damn site better than top button undone with your tie hanging around your waist.
The original question was a valid one and has received some valid answers. A good discussion point.
Barcode and CRP5, god help me if I have to fly with you and the **** should hit the fan. If your colleague in the other seat came up with a reasonable suggestion that you do not agree with would your reaction be the same? I hope not.
Guest
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Thanks for the sensible comments. Pretty much what I thought.... and I expected the dross comments, so no worries... once you've been on Pprune long enough you get used to it.. i'm sure many agree.
Not being a pilot, I wasn't sure the exact workload at that stage of flight, esp. in such a busy piece of airspace.
One fault in my post though was to omit that it is entirely possible he was positioning.
But that doesn't excuse the dress standard, regardless of length of day... Even when I've had a long "duty" day, then battled through London's underground at what seems 30degC, I manage to look "resonably" well kept for my after work dinner appointment.... but I do tend to look a little worse for wear later after a few beers... which is they way this guy appeared!!
This guy was NOT bothered by his appearance. Ok, one doesn't expect perfect hair-do (headsets etc), but at least a quick pull on the tie, and covering up greying chest hair with a couple of buttons isn't hard.
Z.
PS - Would love to put down a copy of my cv, or such like, to address the industry thing. But sorry, I want my anominity on this forum. Please just accept that I'm in the business, have been for a while, but I'm not a pilot....
Guest
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Assuming that the captain was part of the "operating crew" and not positioning, then yes he should by all means have put his tie on when he went down the back. I am an F/O for a major holiday charter airline and it is our company policy to always put our ties on whenever we go out the flight deck door. What we do on the flight deck is up to us - you can wear a baseball cap if you want - but on the other side of the door it is essential that you look professional. It is hard to keep the hair under control at times because of headsets but if you have a tie on it makes all the difference.
There is a huge number of captains I fly with who complain almost daily about the dress state and presentation of the passengers we carry (ie flip flops, tattoos from head to toe with a stud through the bridge of the nose to boot), and to not wear a tie when going down the back reduces us to that level. How can we possibly demand higher salaries in our pay deals when we present ourselves as if we are in the queue at the DHSS? This captain could be the greatest most talented and skilled pilot in the world which is great but if the passengers see a dishevelled mess than they will think the opposite and there are a great many people who are very nervous when flying and may decide to fly with another airline next time. Remember who pays the bills.
As far as the argument over whether or not he should be in the flight deck in the descent through the London TMA I would like to comment as well. It is of course possible that there was in fact no descent and "Zones" was mistaken, but assuming for a second that they were in the descent, yes the captain should be present during the descent. It is our company policy that as soon as the aircraft enters the descent (regardless of where in the world it is) both pilots must try to stay on the radio at all times (ie avoid calling handling agents etc) - sometimes it is not possible but we try - for the following very important reason: If only one pilot is maintaining a listening watch on frequency it is twice as likely that he/she will misunderstand a clearance to a flight level (ie will hear "descend FL160" when the actual instruction is "descend FL 170" ). In the London TMA it is one of the busiest terminal areas in the world and the controllers are working so hard that it is entirely possible that they may misunderstand the incorrect readback as well. Having two pilots "listening out" reduces this possibility drastically, and these mistakes do happen from time to time but are picked up by the other pilot. I don't care what anyone says - yes each pilot can fly the aircraft single handedly - but you must have two pilots listening out to ensure maximum safety and anything less is foolish and increases risk. Having one pilot not even in the flight deck during this critical phase of flight is obviously not conducive to safety. Coming out of the flight deck for a chat or a pee in the cruise is a different matter though - very low workload.
So, "Zones" you are not being harsh. If everything you suspect was actually true than you have every right to be upset. You, as a paying passenger, have the right to expect nothing but the best in terms of safety and I am afraid that this captain has let you down badly. Any so called "pilot" who thinks that it is OK for safety to be compromised in this manner is a safety hazard as well.
Lazlo
There is a huge number of captains I fly with who complain almost daily about the dress state and presentation of the passengers we carry (ie flip flops, tattoos from head to toe with a stud through the bridge of the nose to boot), and to not wear a tie when going down the back reduces us to that level. How can we possibly demand higher salaries in our pay deals when we present ourselves as if we are in the queue at the DHSS? This captain could be the greatest most talented and skilled pilot in the world which is great but if the passengers see a dishevelled mess than they will think the opposite and there are a great many people who are very nervous when flying and may decide to fly with another airline next time. Remember who pays the bills.
As far as the argument over whether or not he should be in the flight deck in the descent through the London TMA I would like to comment as well. It is of course possible that there was in fact no descent and "Zones" was mistaken, but assuming for a second that they were in the descent, yes the captain should be present during the descent. It is our company policy that as soon as the aircraft enters the descent (regardless of where in the world it is) both pilots must try to stay on the radio at all times (ie avoid calling handling agents etc) - sometimes it is not possible but we try - for the following very important reason: If only one pilot is maintaining a listening watch on frequency it is twice as likely that he/she will misunderstand a clearance to a flight level (ie will hear "descend FL160" when the actual instruction is "descend FL 170" ). In the London TMA it is one of the busiest terminal areas in the world and the controllers are working so hard that it is entirely possible that they may misunderstand the incorrect readback as well. Having two pilots "listening out" reduces this possibility drastically, and these mistakes do happen from time to time but are picked up by the other pilot. I don't care what anyone says - yes each pilot can fly the aircraft single handedly - but you must have two pilots listening out to ensure maximum safety and anything less is foolish and increases risk. Having one pilot not even in the flight deck during this critical phase of flight is obviously not conducive to safety. Coming out of the flight deck for a chat or a pee in the cruise is a different matter though - very low workload.
So, "Zones" you are not being harsh. If everything you suspect was actually true than you have every right to be upset. You, as a paying passenger, have the right to expect nothing but the best in terms of safety and I am afraid that this captain has let you down badly. Any so called "pilot" who thinks that it is OK for safety to be compromised in this manner is a safety hazard as well.
Lazlo
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I think this was a great question. Surely safety will only improve when the public realises that it IS their place and responsibility to question anything they see as unusual or alarming. This was not an attack launched on that Captain, merely a concerned query. I think there should be more of them. Potential lessons to be learned out of each one! GE xx
Guest
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As an ATSA, I fly on as many "Fam Flights" as poss, both with "Schedule" AND "Charter". My dress "guide" is to be "smartly dressed". (One airline does state that "ties need not be worn". I wear a tie. I don't to work, cos I am hidden from Joe Public, but on a Fam Flt, ESPECIALLY on the flight deck, I am represnting both my employer NATS/CAA and to a lesser extent, the airline. In 40 years of blagging flight deck trips, the worse one was a "German Airline". The F/O was very smart apart from a pair of cowboy boots!
I think that zones had a possible one off.
Our aim is to please, [that doesn't upset the cleaner]
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chiglet
I think that zones had a possible one off.
Our aim is to please, [that doesn't upset the cleaner]
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chiglet
Guest
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Hello, just looking through this topic and all the comments that have been made, well...what can i say! I am not a pilot because im still young, but want to be when i get my grades and i admire every single pilot out there and think they all do a great job. Regarding the pilot the 'Zones' mentioned...everyone has probably given the reasons, headphones may have messed up his hair, he may have wanted to feel abit more comfortable so he took off his tie, his looks wont affect how he flies the plane.
I have complete respect for every pilot, keep up the good work guys
I have complete respect for every pilot, keep up the good work guys
Guest
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It's good to see that the vast majority of pilots treated the question with the respect it deserved and didn't descend to the patronising or insulting.
While I sympathise with pilots over the extreme scrutiny they endure from the media and the public, I must point out that it has always been the nature of the job, and it couldn't exactly have come as a surprise to any of you. Being a pilot is in many respects a glamorous profession, attracting respect and admiration, not least from members of the opposite sex! The downside is that everything you do necessarily comes under the microscope.
Furthermore, with yours being such a technical profession, it is understabdably frustrating when the ill-informed make spurious judgements and expound them publically. However, once again this is only to be expected, and yours is hardly the only technical profession about which half the world seems to consider itself qualified to spout ignorant opinions.
To those who say they feel no need to defend their profession from anyone outside it, I would recommend that maybe you should start thinking about it. Everyone else has to justify every aspect of their profession to the world at large (doctors, engineers, even train drivers, to name but a few); what makes you believe that pilots should be exempt? My advice would be to grow up, deflate your ego by a few psi and stop being so introspective. Pilots do a wonderful job, and you have a lot to be proud of in your profession. Surely it is your duty to maintain that level of respect by inviting and welcoming constructive criticism, instead of sulking and drawing the veil of elitism around yourselves?
Lazlo's post was spot-on, IMHO.
Humbly submitted by SLF!
While I sympathise with pilots over the extreme scrutiny they endure from the media and the public, I must point out that it has always been the nature of the job, and it couldn't exactly have come as a surprise to any of you. Being a pilot is in many respects a glamorous profession, attracting respect and admiration, not least from members of the opposite sex!
The downside is that everything you do necessarily comes under the microscope.Furthermore, with yours being such a technical profession, it is understabdably frustrating when the ill-informed make spurious judgements and expound them publically. However, once again this is only to be expected, and yours is hardly the only technical profession about which half the world seems to consider itself qualified to spout ignorant opinions.
To those who say they feel no need to defend their profession from anyone outside it, I would recommend that maybe you should start thinking about it. Everyone else has to justify every aspect of their profession to the world at large (doctors, engineers, even train drivers, to name but a few); what makes you believe that pilots should be exempt? My advice would be to grow up, deflate your ego by a few psi and stop being so introspective. Pilots do a wonderful job, and you have a lot to be proud of in your profession. Surely it is your duty to maintain that level of respect by inviting and welcoming constructive criticism, instead of sulking and drawing the veil of elitism around yourselves?
Lazlo's post was spot-on, IMHO.
Humbly submitted by SLF!