AA flight diverts to BOS
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Saw punters putting their shoes thru the detector on the telly tonight... at the very least we might need to recruit a few linesmen at airports to check the shoes like subs coming on 
Stupid b@stard, hope the spooks squeeze every last drop out of him.
Stupid b@stard, hope the spooks squeeze every last drop out of him.
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"..NOT TOO BRIGHT THESE GUYS..."
Radar's probably going to edit me, for correctness, but I hope he let's this stand:
No, they are not too bright; any one who has trained them in the military will agree that most of them have the street-smarts and ingenuity of the average European 13-year old, and never have a back-up plan. They can be truly astonishing. I for one was annoyed at seeing the press label 9/11 as a "brilliantly planned and executed plan" - that was giving them far too much credit. They were just plain lucky - there were so many loopholes in their plan that could have blown the whole thing, and the chances of picking four flights (or more) and not having a single armed escort travelling or whatever in the US are pretty slim (I'll not elaborate, but fellow US airline pilots will understand what I mean).
If this chap is from Sri Lanka, maybe he hasn't flown much before, and limited instructions and training left this as his best effort. Much as I would like to see my fellow crewmembers having torn him to pieces, a live one is worth his weight in gold for intel purposes. No rights for this pr**k - treat him as the Mossad would.
It's time to be meaner and nastier than the opposition; it's the only thing that will get through to them. If you disagree with harsh measures, I presume you are happy to let the airline industry collapse completely; political correctness no longer has a place in the war against terror. Mental illness is no excuse, either, for terrorising the innocent ( AA into ORD 2 mnths ago).
RANT OVER....
Radar's probably going to edit me, for correctness, but I hope he let's this stand:
No, they are not too bright; any one who has trained them in the military will agree that most of them have the street-smarts and ingenuity of the average European 13-year old, and never have a back-up plan. They can be truly astonishing. I for one was annoyed at seeing the press label 9/11 as a "brilliantly planned and executed plan" - that was giving them far too much credit. They were just plain lucky - there were so many loopholes in their plan that could have blown the whole thing, and the chances of picking four flights (or more) and not having a single armed escort travelling or whatever in the US are pretty slim (I'll not elaborate, but fellow US airline pilots will understand what I mean).
If this chap is from Sri Lanka, maybe he hasn't flown much before, and limited instructions and training left this as his best effort. Much as I would like to see my fellow crewmembers having torn him to pieces, a live one is worth his weight in gold for intel purposes. No rights for this pr**k - treat him as the Mossad would.
It's time to be meaner and nastier than the opposition; it's the only thing that will get through to them. If you disagree with harsh measures, I presume you are happy to let the airline industry collapse completely; political correctness no longer has a place in the war against terror. Mental illness is no excuse, either, for terrorising the innocent ( AA into ORD 2 mnths ago).
RANT OVER....
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Truthfully, none of us knows the frame of mind of a man intent on murdering others along with himself. Maybe he waited as he did because he was having second, third, ....nth thoughts. Maybe he changed his mind, then changed it again at the last minute when he failed to get that extra bag of peanuts. I hope our FBI interrogators are "professional" enough to help him properly recollect and understand his actions, if only to provide him with the proper "closure" on this sad chapter of his life.
On the other hand, there is a school of thought that among the ways of terrorizing people is to forever leave them in the dark. Had he managed to trigger another "center fuel tank" explosion (and have we not had occasion to contemplate those in recent years?) over the Atlantic, how would the governments of the USA and France have responded? (Remember TWA 800?)
One cannot help but wonder how long it will be before someone seriously proposes a ban on the wearing of clothing on all international flights.
On the other hand, there is a school of thought that among the ways of terrorizing people is to forever leave them in the dark. Had he managed to trigger another "center fuel tank" explosion (and have we not had occasion to contemplate those in recent years?) over the Atlantic, how would the governments of the USA and France have responded? (Remember TWA 800?)
One cannot help but wonder how long it will be before someone seriously proposes a ban on the wearing of clothing on all international flights.
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I think we now have to consider banning platform shoes and flares [trousers] etc, If we ban all 70's style clothing, then that should really screw them up for a few years! as they will not know what to wear whilst attempting to appear normal,and looking like something out of Starsky and Hutch.instead of the pre-historic,r@ghe*ds that they are
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I just got an e-mail from the airline saying that the FAA will soon come out with a directive(ooh I feel better already) to address this new security threat. I guarantee that will involve flight crew taking of shoes and putting them through the xray machine!
Only 22 years 5 months 16 days to go till retirement! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Only 22 years 5 months 16 days to go till retirement! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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In response to the clipping from Vivienne Walt, USA TODAY posted by Sir Algernon Scruggs, I have to say that having travelled with EL Al, I too, am extremely impressed by their attitude towards security. Given the visible security, I'm even more comforted by the invisible security that PAX (and hopefully the terrorists) never see.
Anyway, my point - the seriousness that the travel industry takes human life in terms of security, transportation design, operating procedures boils down to a calculatable cost. If the cost of intermittent distruption, compensation and damage to brand equity over a defined time period is less than the ongoing costs of incremental (effective) security, equipment redesign etc. then it just won't happen. I know I risk sounding jaundiced, but if government and industry really were interested in reducing the number of fatalities associated with travel, the various recommendations of board of inquiry would be heeded and we would no longer still see:
Roll-on Roll-off ferries - bulk heads would be in place
Fuel tanks filled without nitrogen
Kapton wiring
Poorly validated flight control software necessitating upgrade patches after incidents.
Flight control systems that can be inadvertantly switched through technician error.
The point is all the failure modes associated with such systems are recognised. Some will be addressed, others won't. I don't pretend to know the answer, and I don't mean to knock the accountants - if we want effective security passengers attitudes also need to change.
Anyway, my point - the seriousness that the travel industry takes human life in terms of security, transportation design, operating procedures boils down to a calculatable cost. If the cost of intermittent distruption, compensation and damage to brand equity over a defined time period is less than the ongoing costs of incremental (effective) security, equipment redesign etc. then it just won't happen. I know I risk sounding jaundiced, but if government and industry really were interested in reducing the number of fatalities associated with travel, the various recommendations of board of inquiry would be heeded and we would no longer still see:
Roll-on Roll-off ferries - bulk heads would be in place
Fuel tanks filled without nitrogen
Kapton wiring
Poorly validated flight control software necessitating upgrade patches after incidents.
Flight control systems that can be inadvertantly switched through technician error.
The point is all the failure modes associated with such systems are recognised. Some will be addressed, others won't. I don't pretend to know the answer, and I don't mean to knock the accountants - if we want effective security passengers attitudes also need to change.
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Turns out he was a Brit who converted to Islam. Since he's a UK citizen who took up arms on behalf of the enemy, they should charge him with High Treason.
The security response to this will be the death of the industry- many travellers have stated that it's the security hassles, not the risk of terrorism, that's making them rethink their plans. Now that they're making pax take their shoes off it can only get worse. Many on this board have endorsed El Al's security measures, conveniently forgetting that their pre-boarding checks take longer than most North Americans would need to drive to their destinations. Do you really want to wipe out the short-haul traffic?
If this incident proves anything, it's that preflight screening is useless. The most effective measures are good intel, alert pax & crew, and some weapons on board available to the good guys (and not just the sedative from the first aid kit).
The security response to this will be the death of the industry- many travellers have stated that it's the security hassles, not the risk of terrorism, that's making them rethink their plans. Now that they're making pax take their shoes off it can only get worse. Many on this board have endorsed El Al's security measures, conveniently forgetting that their pre-boarding checks take longer than most North Americans would need to drive to their destinations. Do you really want to wipe out the short-haul traffic?
If this incident proves anything, it's that preflight screening is useless. The most effective measures are good intel, alert pax & crew, and some weapons on board available to the good guys (and not just the sedative from the first aid kit).
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Vikingvill.
I would love to see ElAl security and so would everybody else, but there are a few problems.
1. Take AA as an example. They have almost 900 jets with 2800 flights a day. With Elal security that would have to be reduced substantially.
2. El Al relies heavily on profiling, which I agree with, but it is illegal in the U.S. and in alot of other countrys. I think your bunch saw to that. I saw an interview with Norman Minetta were he said that security people can not treat a granmother from Pasadena any differently han they can treat an Arab male. That may be politicaly expediant but is utterly moronic in this case.
If we want good security laws will have to change, attitudes will have to change, and the way we do cost benefit analysis in business will have to change. Lastly we need to completely tear down an rebuild the most incompetent and inept orginization ever put on this earth. The FAA. They don't call it the Tombstone agency for nothing!
I would love to see ElAl security and so would everybody else, but there are a few problems.
1. Take AA as an example. They have almost 900 jets with 2800 flights a day. With Elal security that would have to be reduced substantially.
2. El Al relies heavily on profiling, which I agree with, but it is illegal in the U.S. and in alot of other countrys. I think your bunch saw to that. I saw an interview with Norman Minetta were he said that security people can not treat a granmother from Pasadena any differently han they can treat an Arab male. That may be politicaly expediant but is utterly moronic in this case.
If we want good security laws will have to change, attitudes will have to change, and the way we do cost benefit analysis in business will have to change. Lastly we need to completely tear down an rebuild the most incompetent and inept orginization ever put on this earth. The FAA. They don't call it the Tombstone agency for nothing!
Union Goon
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RAAS, I got 9256 days 5 hours 8 minutes and 55 sec till I retire.
Let me tell you, I don't believe that security can ever catch someone bent on suicide, and the fact that I work for an Airline whose name millions want removed from the Lexicon is frightening.
Cheers
Wino
[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</p>
Let me tell you, I don't believe that security can ever catch someone bent on suicide, and the fact that I work for an Airline whose name millions want removed from the Lexicon is frightening.
Cheers
Wino
[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</p>
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The problem isn't shoes. It isn't nail clippers. It isn't boxcutters. IT'S MUSLIM FANATIC TERRORISTS. Profiling is the only practical answer. BTW, if security in Europe is so good, how'd that guy get past security checks with a fake passport after airline security turned him over to the French government security under suspicion. Until the muslim countries clean up their act and root out the fanatics and west-haters, I would propose a complete ban on immigration from those countries and immediate deportation of illegal aliens. Immigration control in Europe, Canada, and the U.S. STINKS. The people that want to exterminate us are using our own rope to hang us with.
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I'm beginning to think this guy was just a nut.
If he really had plastic explosives in his shoes and was trying to ignite it with a match, well.
I've heard that C-4 is like sterno. Guys in the field would light the stuff to cook their dinners.
Harmless, really unless setup properly. If so, this guy is guilty of scaring the heck out of the pax and setting himself up for one really, really hot foot.
Basically, an idiot.
Forget the EL AL screening process. It is not going to happen in America. Just won't.
Forget disallowing people of Arabic descent coming into America.
Not going to happen. We are not that way.
You take your chances, you pay the man.
Freedom is not free. We take some risks, I would like to think they are informed risks, but they are risks never the less.
It's how we live.
Having our shoes X-Rayed is a little much, but it will pass and we will move along. Lots of people are in panic mode now. Let's try to not let that screw us up too badly.
We'll get it all sorted out eventually and we will do it right. Until then, maintain an even strain.
PB
If he really had plastic explosives in his shoes and was trying to ignite it with a match, well.
I've heard that C-4 is like sterno. Guys in the field would light the stuff to cook their dinners.
Harmless, really unless setup properly. If so, this guy is guilty of scaring the heck out of the pax and setting himself up for one really, really hot foot.
Basically, an idiot.
Forget the EL AL screening process. It is not going to happen in America. Just won't.
Forget disallowing people of Arabic descent coming into America.
Not going to happen. We are not that way.
You take your chances, you pay the man.
Freedom is not free. We take some risks, I would like to think they are informed risks, but they are risks never the less.
It's how we live.
Having our shoes X-Rayed is a little much, but it will pass and we will move along. Lots of people are in panic mode now. Let's try to not let that screw us up too badly.
We'll get it all sorted out eventually and we will do it right. Until then, maintain an even strain.
PB
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Bit passive there, Plastic Bug. Your laid back attitude is precisely the one that terrorists targetting airliners love. Something a tad more concrete, like using their own "Sharia" laws to punish them might be more of a deterrent. These people feel they can get away with murder, literally, either by dying in glory or at worst, being arrested and then molly-coddled by our own law-enforcement people, whose hands are pretty much tied.
Apologies as this is neither a rumour nor news. Simply an opinion from one whose career has been wrecked by the islamic fundamentalist activities.
Apologies as this is neither a rumour nor news. Simply an opinion from one whose career has been wrecked by the islamic fundamentalist activities.
It has to be said, MissChief is expressing the sentements of most clear minded people, as opposed to the minds of those clouded by social correctness or religion.
The world has changed. Fanatical groups from the Islamic World are on the march. We just have to reflect on recent events to establish who their targets are. Primarily, honest, innocent, working, Men, Women and children.
I have no love for the Israelis and I absolutely abhor what's taking place in their adopted country right now, but an approach to security similar to thiers, is going to have to be considered.
On top of that, a method of dealing with people quite obviously involved in "Terrorist Activities"
(and I mean clearly definable activities) has to be introduced.
I have always believed in principle, in the death penalty.
The UK's history of "wrongful convictions", "fabricated evidence" etc etc etc and the releasing of scores of Birmingham sixes, Manchester fours, West Bromwich two, Newcastle nil
prevent me from believing that it is an acceptable option.
However,when a Guy gets on a plane with a "bomb" in his shoe and attempts to set it off in full view of the passengers, irrespective of his sanity or religious beleifs (or both) then he should be toasted.
The alternative is to try him, convict him
(maybe) and then stick him in a prison for thirty years or so, during which time the possibility of his spiritual brothers arranging another hijack or hostage, taking in order to effect his release exists for the entire period.
We have clearly entered a new chapter in the tale of "Terrorism" and I think we have to start looking for new and effective and direct ways of dealing with it.
Eh, two sugar please dear.
[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: El Grifo ]</p>
The world has changed. Fanatical groups from the Islamic World are on the march. We just have to reflect on recent events to establish who their targets are. Primarily, honest, innocent, working, Men, Women and children.
I have no love for the Israelis and I absolutely abhor what's taking place in their adopted country right now, but an approach to security similar to thiers, is going to have to be considered.
On top of that, a method of dealing with people quite obviously involved in "Terrorist Activities"
(and I mean clearly definable activities) has to be introduced.
I have always believed in principle, in the death penalty.
The UK's history of "wrongful convictions", "fabricated evidence" etc etc etc and the releasing of scores of Birmingham sixes, Manchester fours, West Bromwich two, Newcastle nil
prevent me from believing that it is an acceptable option.
However,when a Guy gets on a plane with a "bomb" in his shoe and attempts to set it off in full view of the passengers, irrespective of his sanity or religious beleifs (or both) then he should be toasted.
The alternative is to try him, convict him
(maybe) and then stick him in a prison for thirty years or so, during which time the possibility of his spiritual brothers arranging another hijack or hostage, taking in order to effect his release exists for the entire period.
We have clearly entered a new chapter in the tale of "Terrorism" and I think we have to start looking for new and effective and direct ways of dealing with it.
Eh, two sugar please dear.
[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: El Grifo ]</p>
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What I remember from army service - plastic explosive needs other kind of detonator, not a fuse, but ok, i'm not an expert in explosives.
Then, lavatory seems to be much safer place to ignite the fuse - nobody will see you and nobody will interrupt you. Also, it is much easier to take some baggage to avoid problems with boarding, isn't it?
Those guys managed to get British passport and explosives for him, but failed to instruct him on simple issues I've mentioned above? Understand my point - kamikaze-terrorists may be stipid, but not the guys who organizing terrorism acts.
Then, lavatory seems to be much safer place to ignite the fuse - nobody will see you and nobody will interrupt you. Also, it is much easier to take some baggage to avoid problems with boarding, isn't it?
Those guys managed to get British passport and explosives for him, but failed to instruct him on simple issues I've mentioned above? Understand my point - kamikaze-terrorists may be stipid, but not the guys who organizing terrorism acts.
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Here we go again….insane ramblings take two. Your idea of religious profiling holds no value, it’s fundamentally flawed and no more of the “Islamic terrorists”, “Islamic fanatics” etc etc…Read and understand this: By us allowing you to go ahead and profile in this way (which no doubt benefits us in the long run) we are accepting that people like OBL are Muslims. Don’t you get it, these mad men need a justification and your narrow mind is allowing them to escape into a wider population. One would expect people as educated as yourselves to know that not all whites are rapists, not all blacks are thieves and not all Asians are fraudsters. As facile as my remark may seem if you want to go ahead and profile Muslims then I want to see the day when all white males over 40 are screened for paedophiliac tendencies and all blacks are spied on. The ailment is human-nature not religion.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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The interesting point of this incident is that if he is a de-arranged individual, someone as simple as him has driven the proverbial coach and horses through the security apparatus of a major European Country’s Security. The guy had all the hallmarks of someone who should have been prevented from travelling (Single ticket, no baggage, travelling on his own) yet was allowed to board. A security inspector could not have acted the part better.
A couple of months ago I drew a British DTLR Security Inspectors attention to the complete disregard of shoes as a potential hiding area for knifes and blades and that Security staff do not check them when an scanner alarm goes off. His response was indifference (Someone might actually respond after this thread).
Until Governments take security seriously and start passenger profiling these incidents will continue. To quote a comment in a UK newspaper a couple of days ago, "the biggest obstacle to proper security is Human Rights Legislation".
As our "President's" wife earn her "crust" on that particular gravy train I cannot see anything changing.
[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: sky9 ]</p>
A couple of months ago I drew a British DTLR Security Inspectors attention to the complete disregard of shoes as a potential hiding area for knifes and blades and that Security staff do not check them when an scanner alarm goes off. His response was indifference (Someone might actually respond after this thread).
Until Governments take security seriously and start passenger profiling these incidents will continue. To quote a comment in a UK newspaper a couple of days ago, "the biggest obstacle to proper security is Human Rights Legislation".
As our "President's" wife earn her "crust" on that particular gravy train I cannot see anything changing.
[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: sky9 ]</p>