AA flight diverts to BOS
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The use of det-cord and P4 ignited by a match is a logical way around airport metal detectors, but it could have been stopped by X-raying the shoes. I find it no surprise that the departure airport was CDG, not much surprises me about that place these days. They’re going to have to stop running it like a farmyard and more like an international airport.
Terrorists fear the chance of discovery and public disclosure of failure. All they need is the risk that at a particular airport they are likely to be rumbled and they’ll go elsewhere. We need to enhance scanning equipment without delay and use sniffer dogs at all airports.
This is vindication of BALPA’s assertion that security stops at the aircraft side, after that your in a survival situation.
I have to agree with ‘les testicules canin’, the public humiliation of airline crews at security does nothing to enhance the professional image of the trade, and indeed my lead passengers to think that a particular airline is being singled out as a security threat. Crews need to be screened in a discreet crew channel away from the public gaze.
Thank God we stopped this one, well done to the crew and particularly to the very brave stewardess.
Terrorists fear the chance of discovery and public disclosure of failure. All they need is the risk that at a particular airport they are likely to be rumbled and they’ll go elsewhere. We need to enhance scanning equipment without delay and use sniffer dogs at all airports.
This is vindication of BALPA’s assertion that security stops at the aircraft side, after that your in a survival situation.
I have to agree with ‘les testicules canin’, the public humiliation of airline crews at security does nothing to enhance the professional image of the trade, and indeed my lead passengers to think that a particular airline is being singled out as a security threat. Crews need to be screened in a discreet crew channel away from the public gaze.
Thank God we stopped this one, well done to the crew and particularly to the very brave stewardess.
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Careful people, the suspect was not an Arab, according to news reports from AP. Some good stories of pax intervention there too, which suggest a positive spin from the media initially.
However just wait till the UK press/BBC get hold of the story...doom and gloom all round, a national speciality.
However just wait till the UK press/BBC get hold of the story...doom and gloom all round, a national speciality.
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This individual was obviously minus any planning and was most surely helped. So many, lucky for the PAX, stupid mistakes...... Thank God this guy was a true ****** moron.
I don't understand his choice in time to detonate his device. Why not on the way out of Paris or inbound over Miami? Out where he was trying to light it we may never have known what happened to the plane if a sudden infight breakup occured from an explosion.
He could have gotten up and went to the biffy and had all the time in the world to set that thing off. Why a match? Anybody that knows C4 knows that a 9 volt battery can set it off.
I think this is going to come down to a rogue wacko that had the conection to get a crude device, maybe plans off the internet, and wanted his 15 minutes of fame. But, when it came to actually killing himself he couldn't do it.
If he had set it off on early takeoff out of Paris the fire and explosion from the fuel would most certainly hide what happened and we would fool ourselves into thinking the tail fell off from wake turbulence. But, he waited until he was over the ocean where pictures of the scattered wreckage would bring sparse terror compared to city blocks on fire like an attack.
If this had been planned by a trained mind we would not have had such an excellent Christmas present of such a happy ending. That sure is a nice pic of him on CNN. Sure wish it showed him with a black eye and a fat lip.
If I where one of the passengers I would be getting a checkup tonight. Who knows what he may have released into the cabin just in case.
Kinda babbled around there. Just had to get something out with how disgusted I am over these heartless cowards.
I don't understand his choice in time to detonate his device. Why not on the way out of Paris or inbound over Miami? Out where he was trying to light it we may never have known what happened to the plane if a sudden infight breakup occured from an explosion.
He could have gotten up and went to the biffy and had all the time in the world to set that thing off. Why a match? Anybody that knows C4 knows that a 9 volt battery can set it off.
I think this is going to come down to a rogue wacko that had the conection to get a crude device, maybe plans off the internet, and wanted his 15 minutes of fame. But, when it came to actually killing himself he couldn't do it.
If he had set it off on early takeoff out of Paris the fire and explosion from the fuel would most certainly hide what happened and we would fool ourselves into thinking the tail fell off from wake turbulence. But, he waited until he was over the ocean where pictures of the scattered wreckage would bring sparse terror compared to city blocks on fire like an attack.
If this had been planned by a trained mind we would not have had such an excellent Christmas present of such a happy ending. That sure is a nice pic of him on CNN. Sure wish it showed him with a black eye and a fat lip.
If I where one of the passengers I would be getting a checkup tonight. Who knows what he may have released into the cabin just in case.
Kinda babbled around there. Just had to get something out with how disgusted I am over these heartless cowards.
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I note that my second post, which raised doubts as to whether or not this was a genuine terrorist attempt, has been deleted. Not too sure why this was - there was nothing in there that wouldn't be known to the average squaddie or who had read the AAIB report on PA103!
There has been the usual uninformed speculation in the press that C4 and its East Bloc cousin, Semtex, are undetectable. This is not the case. C4 is composed of 91% RDX (a nitrite derivative compound) and 9% plastic binder. Many European airports - and certainly all BAA ones - are equipped with nitrite detectors and I've also seen them in use in the States.
I suspect we will hear over the next few days that this in fact was a hoax; that the individual arrested has no link with any terror group; but rather has a long history of mental illness.
The reason your previous posts were deleted was because we all know how 'expert' you are in explosives and weapons but we don't need another thread diverging off on a seperate technical discussion. It is bad enough trying to monitor threads like this with all the 'rednecks' and their instant xenophobic 'solutions'. I leave some of those because they are not worth the effort removing them as long as they die down. Please do not try and impress us with your technical knowledge of C$ (sic) or the content of last months 'Guns & Ammo'.
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]
(Edited coz we all know what happens when you hold down the cap key when you type '4')
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]</p>
There has been the usual uninformed speculation in the press that C4 and its East Bloc cousin, Semtex, are undetectable. This is not the case. C4 is composed of 91% RDX (a nitrite derivative compound) and 9% plastic binder. Many European airports - and certainly all BAA ones - are equipped with nitrite detectors and I've also seen them in use in the States.
I suspect we will hear over the next few days that this in fact was a hoax; that the individual arrested has no link with any terror group; but rather has a long history of mental illness.
The reason your previous posts were deleted was because we all know how 'expert' you are in explosives and weapons but we don't need another thread diverging off on a seperate technical discussion. It is bad enough trying to monitor threads like this with all the 'rednecks' and their instant xenophobic 'solutions'. I leave some of those because they are not worth the effort removing them as long as they die down. Please do not try and impress us with your technical knowledge of C$ (sic) or the content of last months 'Guns & Ammo'.
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]
(Edited coz we all know what happens when you hold down the cap key when you type '4')
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]</p>
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I agree on the fact that numerous taxes are charged on an air ticket, however none if any relate to security charges.
America has always charged some of the silliest of taxes that could ever be levied on an air ticket - Customs Inspection, Agriculture Inspection etc. Now we have the UK taxes and airport PFC (Passenger Facility Charge - which use to be part of the airfare and then was shown seperately by the airlines to avoid having to pay travel agents commission). At the end of the day let the governments do the collection, let them organise the security and let them sort out the aoolocation of these fees internally.
Scottie Dog
America has always charged some of the silliest of taxes that could ever be levied on an air ticket - Customs Inspection, Agriculture Inspection etc. Now we have the UK taxes and airport PFC (Passenger Facility Charge - which use to be part of the airfare and then was shown seperately by the airlines to avoid having to pay travel agents commission). At the end of the day let the governments do the collection, let them organise the security and let them sort out the aoolocation of these fees internally.
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Without trying to get too xenophobic, but it does appear that the individual (?) is of Middle Eastern origin. Suprise, suprise... ? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Picture available at : <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html</a>
Picture available at : <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html</a>
...the thin end thereof
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747FOCAL - some good points I was thinking the same thing. Why did he not wait until the a/c was on finals over a built-up area when all the cabin crew and pax are safely seated and belted? From that point of view it looks like 'amateur night' but we can't rule out the possibility that this was Al-Quaeda or related group attempting to retaliate for the war on terror.
The worrying (but not surprising) thing was how easily he got the explosives on board. I don't remember ever passing a sniffer dog at security, not a lot of metal in the device, you can see how easy it could be.
I think the Arab terrorists have realised that it could be prudent to travel under an assumed non-Arab name (he was carrying a British passport in the name of Richard Reid). I also agree however that if you are Arabic looking you should expect more thorough security at airports.
I think that whoever he is this was a very, very close call - designed to coincide with Christmas. I think that this will really harm public confidence in air travel even further. Expect airline shares to fall tomorrow......
The worrying (but not surprising) thing was how easily he got the explosives on board. I don't remember ever passing a sniffer dog at security, not a lot of metal in the device, you can see how easy it could be.
I think the Arab terrorists have realised that it could be prudent to travel under an assumed non-Arab name (he was carrying a British passport in the name of Richard Reid). I also agree however that if you are Arabic looking you should expect more thorough security at airports.
I think that whoever he is this was a very, very close call - designed to coincide with Christmas. I think that this will really harm public confidence in air travel even further. Expect airline shares to fall tomorrow......
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Some good observations here;
Forgive me for repeating them, but the comments are so true.
“Kudos to the flight attendant who noticed the sulphur smell - I believe a big reward should be in order for this individual”
And “Who are these people, and how have they gone unnoticed for so long?”
“Forget political correctness, forget hurting someone feelings, it is this left wing, tread carefully, don't rock the boat attitude, fuelled by scum sucking, bottom feeding, ambulance chasing attorneys, that has contributed in no small way to the position we are in today. Profile these murderers.”
Personally, I hope that the bravery of the crew and passengers who tackled this ****er are appropriately rewarded. They are heroes.
Lets ensure that they receive massive financial reward and true recognition.
Forgive me for repeating them, but the comments are so true.
“Kudos to the flight attendant who noticed the sulphur smell - I believe a big reward should be in order for this individual”
And “Who are these people, and how have they gone unnoticed for so long?”
“Forget political correctness, forget hurting someone feelings, it is this left wing, tread carefully, don't rock the boat attitude, fuelled by scum sucking, bottom feeding, ambulance chasing attorneys, that has contributed in no small way to the position we are in today. Profile these murderers.”
Personally, I hope that the bravery of the crew and passengers who tackled this ****er are appropriately rewarded. They are heroes.
Lets ensure that they receive massive financial reward and true recognition.
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Without giving away any specific security information, I have a question to ask...
Is it really possible to blow up a 767 with a heelfull of firework material from the inside of the cabin? I would understand that it were, if the explosive were near the fuel tanks, but surely the explosion from inside the cabin would have been very small, leading at worst to rapid decompression?
Just wondering <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Is it really possible to blow up a 767 with a heelfull of firework material from the inside of the cabin? I would understand that it were, if the explosive were near the fuel tanks, but surely the explosion from inside the cabin would have been very small, leading at worst to rapid decompression?
Just wondering <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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According to THE BOSTON GLOBE, the GX-4 explosives could have blown a large hole in the fuselage, causing an almost certain crash. This was by an explosive expert from the FBI.
Saab Driver - "The man appeared to be an Arab carrying a false passport issued in Belgium three weeks ago in the name of Richard Reid. WBZ-TV (Ch. 4) reported him as being 28-years-old."
The Boston Globe Article said quite plainly that Richard Reid is a JAMAICAN. The photo shows a man with a hood, which covered his dreadlock hair style.
Jamaicans also typically have English sounding names, and scumbag is 6'4", which is much taller than the average Arab.
Celebrate Diversity!
Saab Driver - "The man appeared to be an Arab carrying a false passport issued in Belgium three weeks ago in the name of Richard Reid. WBZ-TV (Ch. 4) reported him as being 28-years-old."
The Boston Globe Article said quite plainly that Richard Reid is a JAMAICAN. The photo shows a man with a hood, which covered his dreadlock hair style.
Jamaicans also typically have English sounding names, and scumbag is 6'4", which is much taller than the average Arab.
Celebrate Diversity!
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There has been some speculation that this guy's stupidity precludes him being part of some organized effort. It seems to me that when you recruit suicide bombers you can't be too choosy.
According to the CNN article that Saab2k refers to upthread, the FAA issued a security bulletin on December 11. It warned that the U.S. government had received information "that suggests the possibility of terrorist hijackings of airliners from either the U.S. or Europe. We are concerned that hijackers may attempt to smuggle disassembled weapons on board an airliner by hiding weapon components within their shoes." This incident and the intelligence may well be unrelated but it is discouraging to think that this happened when security was supposedly heightened.
According to the CNN article that Saab2k refers to upthread, the FAA issued a security bulletin on December 11. It warned that the U.S. government had received information "that suggests the possibility of terrorist hijackings of airliners from either the U.S. or Europe. We are concerned that hijackers may attempt to smuggle disassembled weapons on board an airliner by hiding weapon components within their shoes." This incident and the intelligence may well be unrelated but it is discouraging to think that this happened when security was supposedly heightened.
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With reference to this particular ******* tosspot lighting the fuse in the lavvy.
Surely the smoke detectors in there are sensitive enough that the alarm would go off as soon as he struck his match.
Just a thought.
Surely the smoke detectors in there are sensitive enough that the alarm would go off as soon as he struck his match.
Just a thought.
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Putting aside all the big kiddies on here who speculate on how and where and at what stage of flight he should have detonated his shoe bomb and after listening to the numerous 'TV experts' waffle on about sniffer dogs and nitrate sensors we now see even more pathetic knee jerk reaction from absolutely useless 'security experts' making passengers remove their shoes and put them through the x-ray machine. I mean, how more idiotic can it get?
As mentioned in an earlier post, if these penny pinching airline beancounters had just a bit more foresight and slightly larger cojones than a castrated mouse and invested in EL AL style security profiling we would all be a bit safer. It has just been reported that this guy was refused an earlier flight because he was acting a bit weird but they decided to let him on the MIA flight! Who is the dumb security chief that is going to pass the buck on this one?
Until airlines, airports and governments get off their tight backsides and invest in proper security that prevents these dangerous people from even getting to the check in desk, never mind the the aircraft, then all we are going to see is more brainless security where their idea of security is a magnetic loop and an x-ray scanner AFTER check in and before the duty free or gate. Too late and as shown, easily breached.
As mentioned in an earlier post, if these penny pinching airline beancounters had just a bit more foresight and slightly larger cojones than a castrated mouse and invested in EL AL style security profiling we would all be a bit safer. It has just been reported that this guy was refused an earlier flight because he was acting a bit weird but they decided to let him on the MIA flight! Who is the dumb security chief that is going to pass the buck on this one?
Until airlines, airports and governments get off their tight backsides and invest in proper security that prevents these dangerous people from even getting to the check in desk, never mind the the aircraft, then all we are going to see is more brainless security where their idea of security is a magnetic loop and an x-ray scanner AFTER check in and before the duty free or gate. Too late and as shown, easily breached.
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I heard a blurb on the news yesterday where they were discussing the question of why this guy tried to light his shoe at his seat instead of someplace less conspicuous. Apparantly he was seated slightly behind the leading edge of the wing were he could have blown a hole in the floor and ignited fuel in the center fuel tank. Again this is all speculation and I am probably giving this guy way to much credit.
Like someone said, why not do it over a populated area instead of over the ocean? Not to bright these guys I guess.
Like someone said, why not do it over a populated area instead of over the ocean? Not to bright these guys I guess.