Spanair accident at Madrid
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factual data please
Can anybody give any confirmed details, such as:
runway used, wx at time of accident, registration of ac?
Thx, highly appreciated.
runway used, wx at time of accident, registration of ac?
Thx, highly appreciated.
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Midland
It's to ensure that both engines spool up at the same time. If one engine spools up to full power before the other does, direction control can be interesting to say the least.
FF
It's to ensure that both engines spool up at the same time. If one engine spools up to full power before the other does, direction control can be interesting to say the least.
FF
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Midland 63 you are correct, beeb ex-spurt has made a fool of himself today more than once, jet engines are run up to a mid power setting to allow the engines to stabilise before the take off thrust is set
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M63...
You apply a certain amount of power, since the time taken to accelerate a jet engine from idle is not only significant, but varies between engines... Once you have the engines "stable" at a mid power setting, it takes far less time, and less variable between engines, to takeoff power...
In practice, this means if you just pushed the throttles forward form idle, one may well start producing significant thrust well before the other, and the aircraft turn - all rather embarrassing
Without causing extensive and unnecessary speculation, my info seems to indicate that all MAD runways now open, whereas in the hours after the accident, one or even 2 (?) runways were closed. If significant debris were left on a runway (the takeoff runway of the affected aircraft?) maybe one would expect that runway left closed for accident investigation purposes and debris recovery in slow(ish) time?
NoD
You apply a certain amount of power, since the time taken to accelerate a jet engine from idle is not only significant, but varies between engines... Once you have the engines "stable" at a mid power setting, it takes far less time, and less variable between engines, to takeoff power...
In practice, this means if you just pushed the throttles forward form idle, one may well start producing significant thrust well before the other, and the aircraft turn - all rather embarrassing
Without causing extensive and unnecessary speculation, my info seems to indicate that all MAD runways now open, whereas in the hours after the accident, one or even 2 (?) runways were closed. If significant debris were left on a runway (the takeoff runway of the affected aircraft?) maybe one would expect that runway left closed for accident investigation purposes and debris recovery in slow(ish) time?
NoD
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Slight thread drift, whilst watching thr Sky "Breaking News" at work, I noticed at least one a/c depart. What level of fire cover was there for "other" a/c movements? Reason for asking, at an AGI which turned into an A/c Accident at Manchester, the airport was closed due to lack of fire cover.
Condolencies to all the Families and Friends
Condolencies to all the Families and Friends
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MD-80 survivability
Would it be fair to say that a catastrophic MD-80 crash might be less survivable than a more modern aircraft? Specifically, I'm referring to the accessibility of exit doors and the lack of fire suppression systems.
My thoughts are with the victims and their families.
My thoughts are with the victims and their families.
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Sadly news !
Just a question. The number of 9 Crew members seems very important for an MD82.
Normal crew should be 6 (4 cabin crew for 200 pax and 2 cockpit crew).
I don't think a third pilot on a such leg is needed, and even we are in a very high loaded period, 3 more flight attendants seems very important.
Anyone has an idea ?
Just a question. The number of 9 Crew members seems very important for an MD82.
Normal crew should be 6 (4 cabin crew for 200 pax and 2 cockpit crew).
I don't think a third pilot on a such leg is needed, and even we are in a very high loaded period, 3 more flight attendants seems very important.
Anyone has an idea ?
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Sadly news !
Just a question. The number of 9 Crew members seems very important for an MD82.
Normal crew should be 6 (4 cabin crew for 200 pax and 2 cockpit crew).
I don't think a third pilot on a such leg is needed, and even we are in a very high loaded period, 3 more flight attendants seems very important.
Anyone has an idea ?
Just a question. The number of 9 Crew members seems very important for an MD82.
Normal crew should be 6 (4 cabin crew for 200 pax and 2 cockpit crew).
I don't think a third pilot on a such leg is needed, and even we are in a very high loaded period, 3 more flight attendants seems very important.
Anyone has an idea ?
153 die in Madrid jet crash disaster
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as far as MD80 exits vs more modern planes, I would like to point out that the MD80/DC9 series has more exits than some planes in its class.
In the cockpit, the two DV windows are an escape route for the pilots and anyone else in that area...there is even a trap door down into the electrical compartment with a way to the ground after that...but let's not talk about that one shall we?
there are two cabin doors forward. 4 over wing exits, a tail cone exit slide (famous obama) and a door near the left engine. that's 4 (correction)slide equipped doors.
a 737 has only 2 over wing exits, 4 door type exits, plus DV windows...no tail escape route.
I understand from one report that runway 36 right was used for takeoff.
Could one thrust reverser have accidently deployed? We train for that in the sim.
I understand that the plane went into a ravine...perhaps this is somewhat like the AF *air france* Toronto crash. (ravine...not phase of flight)
does anyone have a picture of the engines?
my prayers go out to those harmed.
In the cockpit, the two DV windows are an escape route for the pilots and anyone else in that area...there is even a trap door down into the electrical compartment with a way to the ground after that...but let's not talk about that one shall we?
there are two cabin doors forward. 4 over wing exits, a tail cone exit slide (famous obama) and a door near the left engine. that's 4 (correction)slide equipped doors.
a 737 has only 2 over wing exits, 4 door type exits, plus DV windows...no tail escape route.
I understand from one report that runway 36 right was used for takeoff.
Could one thrust reverser have accidently deployed? We train for that in the sim.
I understand that the plane went into a ravine...perhaps this is somewhat like the AF *air france* Toronto crash. (ravine...not phase of flight)
does anyone have a picture of the engines?
my prayers go out to those harmed.
Last edited by sevenstrokeroll; 21st Aug 2008 at 00:54.
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Very interesting post from Wirelock (Post 156) who suggests debris indicates thrust reversers deployed.
I had originally thought the plane must have departed 36 R and assymetric thrust on failure of port engine would have caused the plane to veer left.
But the plane veered right on36 L.
So if the plane abandoned takeoff using thrust reversers, with an inoperative port engine, would the plane veer right?
I had originally thought the plane must have departed 36 R and assymetric thrust on failure of port engine would have caused the plane to veer left.
But the plane veered right on36 L.
So if the plane abandoned takeoff using thrust reversers, with an inoperative port engine, would the plane veer right?
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Could the combination of high OAT, high pax load and high elevation of the airport played a part in the crash with the apparent faulted engine on the takeoff roll and subsequent crash?
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Could the combination of high OAT, high pax load and high elevation of the airport played a part in the crash with the apparent faulted engine on the takeoff roll and subsequent crash?
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I'd like to agree with the person who indicates he would rather fly an older well maintained plane than a newer cad/cam lightweight plane. People talking about aircraft age seem to be wrong...now a brand new jet vs. a poorly maintained older plane is different!
The computer annimation is not by CNN, it is by telemadrid...though cnn has used it...so let's get that straight.
IT IS very interesting (post 156) if there are skid marks from this crash on the runway...if indeed the plane didn't get airborne, this is vital to investigators.
if the plane had problems with the left (port) engine and rejected the takeoff and used full reverse on the right (starboard) engine, it might "veer" to the right...but pilots are trained to use thrust reverse and maintain directional control.
I will look up the runway length, but if someone has all the data for this airport, please post.
The computer annimation is not by CNN, it is by telemadrid...though cnn has used it...so let's get that straight.
IT IS very interesting (post 156) if there are skid marks from this crash on the runway...if indeed the plane didn't get airborne, this is vital to investigators.
if the plane had problems with the left (port) engine and rejected the takeoff and used full reverse on the right (starboard) engine, it might "veer" to the right...but pilots are trained to use thrust reverse and maintain directional control.
I will look up the runway length, but if someone has all the data for this airport, please post.
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direct witness
'Vimos una bola de fuego al final de la pista' | elmundo.es
Manuel Muela Mata, a driver that daily catches R2, narrates the impact: "I was returning home and at the exit to Fuente el Saz-Paracuellos I saw directly to a plane, thinking it was landing. But seeing it by the side, it caught my attention when a great sand storm rose. Then I understood that it got out the left side of the runway and it impressed me. Then I reduced and stopped, when the plane, suddenly changed the direction towards the right and hit the ground with the right wing, seeing that it torned away and a big explosion happened on a part of it"
'Vimos una bola de fuego al final de la pista' | elmundo.es
Manuel Muela Mata, un conductor que se desplaza diariamente por la R2, ha narrado así el impacto: "Regresaba a casa y en la salida de Fuente el Saz- Paracuellos del Jarama me he encontrado la visión directa de un avión, que pensé que aterrizaba. Pero, visto de lado, me llamo la atención que se levantó una nube de arena inmensa al pasar. Luego comprendí que se salió hacia la izquierda de la pista y me impresionó. Reduje la velocidad y paré, cuando el avión, bruscamente, cambio de dirección hacia la derecha y pegó el ala derecha al suelo, y vi como se partía y una gran explosión en una parte de él".
Manuel Muela Mata, un conductor que se desplaza diariamente por la R2, ha narrado así el impacto: "Regresaba a casa y en la salida de Fuente el Saz- Paracuellos del Jarama me he encontrado la visión directa de un avión, que pensé que aterrizaba. Pero, visto de lado, me llamo la atención que se levantó una nube de arena inmensa al pasar. Luego comprendí que se salió hacia la izquierda de la pista y me impresionó. Reduje la velocidad y paré, cuando el avión, bruscamente, cambio de dirección hacia la derecha y pegó el ala derecha al suelo, y vi como se partía y una gran explosión en una parte de él".
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"only a handfull of professional posts so far"
Sarcastic speaking, "methinks".
P.S. I have been in a grossly-remotely similar situation.
Just an incident ours, fotunately for us, 4 hours of delay for all of us passengers; pilot flying 737-800 opened TO power whilst aligninging with runway 22L (I think he think he had still about 30 degrees to go, but maybe wrong) -- a mistake.
I and at leat other 50 other passengers can wittness this -- not only after my posthumous explanations on the spot-- fully loaded,at San Giusto, Pisa... something went wrong with starboard main undercarriage -- a very loud thump --, I heard it, the very loud thump on the right side of the undercarriage-- the flying crew did as well, and aborted take-off well before 60 knots -- I can count those, easily, ... just like the hundreds of meters (thus not feet) THEY REGULARLY go off, ahead, the TDZE.
I was too tired to open a topic reagrding this incident, also because Ryanair took well care of us (substitute plane sent from Dublin to help us, got there in three hours, in fact).
PLease pardon my "French".
I do not like the MD-8X ...
JUST my personal opinion.
That said, I hope we will read some *relevant technical* news (which I might have missed at the moment) about this tragic accident,... especially ragarding dynamics.
All the best, Paolo
Sarcastic speaking, "methinks".
P.S. I have been in a grossly-remotely similar situation.
Just an incident ours, fotunately for us, 4 hours of delay for all of us passengers; pilot flying 737-800 opened TO power whilst aligninging with runway 22L (I think he think he had still about 30 degrees to go, but maybe wrong) -- a mistake.
I and at leat other 50 other passengers can wittness this -- not only after my posthumous explanations on the spot-- fully loaded,at San Giusto, Pisa... something went wrong with starboard main undercarriage -- a very loud thump --, I heard it, the very loud thump on the right side of the undercarriage-- the flying crew did as well, and aborted take-off well before 60 knots -- I can count those, easily, ... just like the hundreds of meters (thus not feet) THEY REGULARLY go off, ahead, the TDZE.
I was too tired to open a topic reagrding this incident, also because Ryanair took well care of us (substitute plane sent from Dublin to help us, got there in three hours, in fact).
PLease pardon my "French".
I do not like the MD-8X ...
JUST my personal opinion.
That said, I hope we will read some *relevant technical* news (which I might have missed at the moment) about this tragic accident,... especially ragarding dynamics.
All the best, Paolo
...it is quite possible that deploying thrust reversers on both engines with the left inoperable could swing it to the right (physics, people).
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