Passenger boarding without flight crew - what does your airline do ? ....

[Aldente]

Here at a large low cost airline in Europe (shouldn't be too hard to guess which one !), we have just had a memo from our Chief Pilot in which he tells us that "like many other airlines", cabin crew are now allowed to board the aircraft without the presence of the flight deck crew, provided that the APU is not running, and fuelling is not taking place.

I can see all kinds of potential pitfalls with this procedure...... just wondered what the "many other airlines" do ? .......

[Dc-Nine]

Boarding without f/deck

Here at Spotty M No flight deck = no boarding whatever the circumstances

[NigelOnDraft]

<<cabin crew are now allowed to board the aircraft without the presence of the flight deck crew>> At our "big" UK airline, out Cabin Crew almost always board the aircraft before us

But I think you are really talking about passenger boarding? And again, yes, with suitable restricitons this is permitted, and often occurs...

NoD

[Aldente]

Sorry, yes, just to clarify, the memo clearly says that cabin crew are now permitted to board passengers without any flight deck crew being present ......

[luvly jubbly]

I can't see any problem with this..... Obviously they would have confirmed that flight crew are indeed on their way to the aircraft. Flight crew only need to be there to fire the APU extinguisher!

If the APU is off, and there's no fuelling then what's the problem? CC are trained to initiate evecuation should something unforseen occur....

[CEJM]

As mentioned before here at Spotty M no flight crew = no boarding.During my time as engineer with a certain Dutch airline, they could board without any flight crew as long as one of the engineers was present. However that might have changed now as I am talking about a decade ago.

[Donkey497]

I may be taking an overly simplistic view, but it seems quite obvious to me.Who is trained and legally responsible for ensuring that the aircraft is in safe to enter and to operate? - Only the flight crew, and I suppose, taking it to the legal ultimate, it is the pilot alone.Therefore if the flight crew has not checked the aircraft, it cannot be assumed that it is always in a safe condition to enter.Likewise, as the majority of [hazard] indicators are solely present on the flight deck, if there is no-one on the flight deck, regardless of how much training any other crewmember may have had, it is incorrect to assume that even if the aircraft has been checked & was safe, that it will remain so.If Cabin Crew are being permitted now, it is only time before passengers are allowed to do the same.We have seen a fair few threads discussing fires, failures and (internal) short circuits of standby battery power sources, most caught by the attention of someone on the flight deck. Should one of these incidents occur with an empty flight deck, cabin crew on board & passengers half boarded, who will be responsible? In the worst case of a fire following a short-circuit with the aircraft as described, how much damage will occur to the aircraft before the problem is noticed & how long will it take to de-plane?This does not seem to me, to be what could be termed, a wise and considered step forward for continued safe operation.

[Rainboe]

Sorry, but that view is a bit of a 'work to rule' attitude. Any of those things can happen whether passengers are boarding or not. Aeroplanes are left powered up under the control of an engineer who may not even be aboard. Cabin crew are aware of the situation and are well trained to react to any emergency. Cargo aircraft are loaded with no flight crew present. The pilots are not needed until fuelling and APU time. It's a good procedure. The Despatcher will liaise with the groundstaff and cabin crew to ensure boarding can commence.

[Aldente]

With regard to the no fuelling aspect, the re-fuellers at my base normally just turn up connect the fuel hose to the aircraft and start pumping (they already know how much via a message passed to them earlier), and would not normally know (or care) if the flight deck was manned. The cabin crew would noramlly be busy supervising the pasengers etc, are they supposed to keep one eye out of the window to check to see whether the re-fueller has turned up and then run outside to stop fuelling until flight deck crew arrive ?

Medical emergency ? ..... Pasenger has heart attack after climbing up the steps, the quickest way to summon help is often via the radio (ATC/Handling agent), difficult with no flight deck crew ......

[NigelOnDraft]

The points above are all valid, and catered for in the airline's procedures (i.e. APU, Refuelling, Engineer as/if/when required). The rules have been that way since I joined some 12 years ago...

[The Real Slim Shady]

I'm with Rainboe on this. Simply because it has always been done this way is no logical response to a considered change to procedures.

In this case there is no internal power on the aircraft: if external power is connected and running the 115VAC external bus, the Ground service buses and the battery chargers are powered on the 737NG. If the battery switch is off there are no indications on the flightdeck.

As to refuelling, the refuellers are not permitted to connect the hose or start refuelling without the Captain's permission.

[IRISHinUS]

Here in the US there doesn't seem to be any limitation (CAL). As long as there is a cabin crew they can board whether fueling or not. It doesn't even have to be the cabin crew for the flight - often they'll use FAs sitting airport reserve.

I've occasionaly turned up to find all the pax already on board with the exception of jumpseaters that need captain's permission to board even if in the cabin.

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

The procedure allows pax boarding with only the presence of Cabin crew provided no fuelling and no APU running. One question springs to mind: How will the cabin crew know if either is the case? Of course, look outside for the fuelling but what if the fueller shows up just after boarding has been commenced?
My point is the whole thing needs to be supervised by either an engineer or flight deck crew.
Who will be in charge legally?

[IRISHinUS]

I don't see the issue to be honest, maybe we just don't have the no-fuelling restriction. If there is a fire the cabin crew is there to evacuate the plane and in the absence of a flight crew the gate agent is the ground security coordinator (and is legally responsible).

If, in the very unfortunate case that the plane turns out to have a maintanence issue that requires deboarding (O2 service, for example) then things will not be really that much slower than if you hadn't boarded in the first place. At least everyone already has their stuff in the overheads.

[Seat62K]

Where airlines allow passengers to board before flight deck crew, is there a rule that when this happens the flight deck door must be locked (or otherwise guarded)? I'd hate to think that the flight deck could be accessible to passengers.
P.S. I remember being a passenger on a US Airways 'plane which made an en route stop at Pittsburgh. I was the only person who chose not to get off and stretch his/her legs. When we took off for Charlotte I discovered that not all the cabin crew could leave the aircraft because of me; if I'd known this, I'd have gotten off, too. I felt sorry for them!

[sevenstrokeroll]

when I first started with a major airline here in the USA, boarding could even be done with the apu running and both pilots off the plane...f/a's had to be on board of course.

then it was changed to : one pilot had to be on board if the apu was running and pax were to be boarded or even remaining onboard on a through stop.

but if ground power/air was/were hooked up, the fa's would board without the pilots. Like the CAL guy above, sometimes non flying or "boarding duty" flight attendants would board for the crew while the flying crew was racing through the airport. Of course the pax would still have to wait while we preflighted and sometimes if we found something wrong with the plane, we had to have everyone get off the plane.

Now, I think it is better and safer to have the pilots and full cabin crew on board with the plane fully ready/preflighted in case something goes wrong...which it did one time.

The mx staff was changing a nosewheel, the plane was jacked up at the nose jacking point, pax on board. But the jetbridge (jetway) got caught under the main cabin door and the self leveling mechanism started to lift up the cabin door...until it and the plane slipped off and fell about 2 feet ...BANG.

I was on board as the f/o at the time (many years ago) and got on the PA system to reassure the passengers. It was this incident that made me want to do things the right and expensive way...full crew on board, to board.

The captain was walking between the jetway and the plane when it fell and he almost lost his head. The plane was damaged and taken out of service.

Be careful, don't be cheap...but that seems to be the order of the day.

[Lost in Saigon]

Originally Posted by Seat62K

Where airlines allow passengers to board before flight deck crew, is there a rule that when this happens the flight deck door must be locked (or otherwise guarded)? I'd hate to think that the flight deck could be accessible to passengers.

At Air Canada it is an everyday occurrence. Pilots often arrive (late due to aircraft swaps) to find the aircraft fully boarded, fully fuelled, with the APU running, flight deck door wide open, and the jump seat passenger standing in the galley.

This is not a safety problem as the Flight Attendants are responsible for the aircraft and the APU has full fire protection and auto shutdown capabilities.

[Artificial Horizon]

Well at BA you can only board pax without the flight crew if the emergency lights are armed, there is a dispatcher present and the crew are guarding their doors. Emergency lights can only be armed though by Flight Crew or Engineer so to be honest most of the time they have to wait for the Flight Crew to pitch up anyway.

[sevenstrokeroll]

interesting thread

at what time aren't the emergency lights armed? perhaps on the first flight of the day (in which case it is easy to have the whole crew onboard)?

We don't disarm the lights on a crew change.

It is interesting that there are so many other ways to do things. Not good, just different.

Sadly, too many things are done for money and not the highest level of safety.

[411A]

Ad-hoc charter carrier, type L1011.
CC are allowed (and encouraged) to board pax without the presence of FD crew, with the APU operating and fueling in progress....however, in ALL such cases, two ground engineers must be present, but not necessarily on the FD.

Works like a charm.