Passenger boarding without flight crew - what does your airline do ? ....
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Well in my 40 years in the Industry, I doubt if there would have been even one day where we didn't board at least one flight without the Pilots being on board, as long as the Engineer is at the Aircraft, and the Cabin Crew on board of course. 
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Cabin crew
You guys all assume we are talking about an airline with well trained indipendent intelligent and mature CCs but this is not the case .rarely they would take any kind of serious action without being commanded so either for lack of commitment to the job to wich they aren't affectionate or for lack of any training apart from a strong drive to sell a cheap product.
The rest of the considerations are valid if not In the above case's airline.
D
The rest of the considerations are valid if not In the above case's airline.
D
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Now how about this one ? (same airline !) latest missive from Chief Pilot is that passenger head count will be done and TOB figure passed to and confirmed with Captain after the doors have been closed ......
It all goes to pot sometimes - thank goodness most of the numbers are lucky...
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All LOCOs want to keep the pilot out of the loop whenever and wherever they may cause a delay.
In case of an incident "Captain is responsible for every thing for which responsibility is not specified".
In my company, they wanted pilot to just fly the plane like we give it to you.
A few issues of the kind which cant be forecast, the COO calls the Capt, who tells him, "I will fly how CP tells me only. This is not what he told me. You have passed instructions which have led to this foul up not me. Ask your chief pilot to inform me of the solution.I will wait till my duty time gets over"
After this the CP calls him to thank him for making the COO see light etc could you please accomodate this once etc.....
Coming to such inane practices, in the daily delay report meetings, this becomes an issue which needs to be solved.
Incase of incident, hold the nearest crew member.CC or FD responsible and continue.
Commerce not safety.
We can make a car that will never crash but then you could not buy it...
I recall some automajor saying in US..
In case of an incident "Captain is responsible for every thing for which responsibility is not specified".
In my company, they wanted pilot to just fly the plane like we give it to you.
A few issues of the kind which cant be forecast, the COO calls the Capt, who tells him, "I will fly how CP tells me only. This is not what he told me. You have passed instructions which have led to this foul up not me. Ask your chief pilot to inform me of the solution.I will wait till my duty time gets over"
After this the CP calls him to thank him for making the COO see light etc could you please accomodate this once etc.....
Coming to such inane practices, in the daily delay report meetings, this becomes an issue which needs to be solved.
Incase of incident, hold the nearest crew member.CC or FD responsible and continue.
Commerce not safety.
We can make a car that will never crash but then you could not buy it...
I recall some automajor saying in US..
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You guys all assume we are talking about an airline with well trained indipendent intelligent and mature CCs but this is not the case
The airline is Ryanair. Everyone knows it but no one says it.
As for your comment, that is way out of order. Please don't tar everyone with the same brush.
I know of a PU with a Master Degree in English; another one is a lawyer in Spain; both fly because they enjoy it. They fly with this airline because the money are rather good, they have a fixed roster and they come home to the loved ones every night.
Yes there are some bad eggs in the basket, but you tell me, which company doesn't have bad eggs?
Rgds,
ATS
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I think you will find that your airline's insurance cover requires a fully constituted crew be onboard when passengers are embarked.
Some will give a dispensation to allow boarding to take place when there is a First Officer who has passed for Command.
Not only is the pilot there to initiate emergency evacuation in the case where he sees the situation about to happen but also to inform the authorities by radio when a cabin crew member initiates an evacuation within their approved criteria.
HWB
Some will give a dispensation to allow boarding to take place when there is a First Officer who has passed for Command.
Not only is the pilot there to initiate emergency evacuation in the case where he sees the situation about to happen but also to inform the authorities by radio when a cabin crew member initiates an evacuation within their approved criteria.
HWB
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This thread brings to mind when I was first encountered pax loading/no flight crew.
I had been called out on standby, about 45 mins from the airport I get a phone call:
OPS: Hi, We are just loading the pax, how much fuel do you want.
ME: As the FO is already there, ask him for a provisional figure.
OPS: Err, your FO is also on his way to the airport.
ME: Better ask the guy in charge for the fuel figure then.
OPS: But thats you!
ME: Nope, the guy who authorised the pax boarding is in charge, ask him. I'll look at it in the crew room, with the FO, when we have both seen all the briefings and route. Bye.
Of course this was in the days before we had a proper procedure, even when it was brought in, the Commander still had to be consulted prior to boarding and an engineer had to be present at all times.
I had been called out on standby, about 45 mins from the airport I get a phone call:
OPS: Hi, We are just loading the pax, how much fuel do you want.
ME: As the FO is already there, ask him for a provisional figure.
OPS: Err, your FO is also on his way to the airport.
ME: Better ask the guy in charge for the fuel figure then.
OPS: But thats you!
ME: Nope, the guy who authorised the pax boarding is in charge, ask him. I'll look at it in the crew room, with the FO, when we have both seen all the briefings and route. Bye.
Of course this was in the days before we had a proper procedure, even when it was brought in, the Commander still had to be consulted prior to boarding and an engineer had to be present at all times.
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Oh! Please!...use some common sense!
What a total waste of space this thread is!
STREWTH!! if you can't work this problem out, none of you posting should be in the aviation industry!
GOD help us all with the current crop of turkeys posing as aviation people!!!
PS: Because it's unfair of me to treat you like idiots, without giving you a chance to redeem yourselves, let me give you a clue to the answer you seek....
HAVE A LOOK AT THE OPS MANUAL!!!
What a total waste of space this thread is!
STREWTH!! if you can't work this problem out, none of you posting should be in the aviation industry!
GOD help us all with the current crop of turkeys posing as aviation people!!!
PS: Because it's unfair of me to treat you like idiots, without giving you a chance to redeem yourselves, let me give you a clue to the answer you seek....
HAVE A LOOK AT THE OPS MANUAL!!!
Last edited by Obie; 19th Aug 2008 at 09:07.
Obie - this thread is about other airline's procedures. (you idiot)
I suspect that a lot of the (pilot) objection simply comes from guys who have only flown for one carrier, only seen one way to skin a cat, and assume that is the only way.
I have seen:
1- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- FO proceeds directly to the aircraft, checks the Tech Log, does the walk around, puts on the coffee, calls the engineers back (if needed) and begins to program the FMC etc.
- Cabin crew gather and brief the day, proceed to the aircraft, check the cabin.
- Captain checks wx and NOTAMs, decides the fuel, completes the plan. Last to arrive at aircraft, briefs the Senior and FO, accepts the FO's brief on the aircraft state.
- Show gets on the road.
2- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- Cabin crew proceed to aircraft, inspect the cabin, and if necessary board pax.
- Captain and FO check wx, NOTAMs, jointly agree the fuel, proceed to aircraft together, brief the Purser.
- Pilot not flying completes the walkaround, calls the engineers back (if needed)
- Show gets on the road.
3- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- Captain and FO find agreement on the fuel, log the plan.
- All of the crew gather and brief.
- All of the crew proceed to the aircraft together.
- Captain required to complete the first walkaround of the day, calls the engineers back (if needed)
- Show gets on the road.
and other minor variations on the theme.
In terms of boarding the passengers before the crew arrive, the cabin crew look after the passenger safety (as always) and are competent to evacuate. The engineers have already performed the daily inspection, so the only added risk is that you lose the liaison between ATC/Emergency Services/Company and the crew on the aircraft.
(For those that don't know, pilots are not generally licensed or considered competent to perform the daily inspection on a Category A aircraft. Category A aircraft are your general jet passenger carriers and similar. Pilot's require specific authorisation (after training) to sign the daily inspection on these, although they can, and do, complete the daily inspection on small training types. The "walkaround" is simply a general look for damage that may have occurred since the last inspection.)
In aviation we work on probability, and off the top of my head, I can only remember two incidents involving aircraft on the ramp. One was the Thai 737 where the centre tank fuel pumps were left running, and the centre tank exploded. The other was a refuelling incident in New Zealand, where a vehicle ran into the ground fuel connection, causing a high pressure geyser of fuel to erupt from the ground point and engulf the right wing, which subsequently ignited. I imagine there must be a couple of others - aircraft dropping on their tail, or bridge problems etc.
All in all, an acceptable risk level, I would think, given all of these events would occur anyway - we are just talking about the added risk of not having a flight crew. A competent management would undertake a risk assessment for any new procedure.
Absent pilots - two fewer lives for the cabin crew to worry about?
I suspect that a lot of the (pilot) objection simply comes from guys who have only flown for one carrier, only seen one way to skin a cat, and assume that is the only way.
I have seen:
1- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- FO proceeds directly to the aircraft, checks the Tech Log, does the walk around, puts on the coffee, calls the engineers back (if needed) and begins to program the FMC etc.
- Cabin crew gather and brief the day, proceed to the aircraft, check the cabin.
- Captain checks wx and NOTAMs, decides the fuel, completes the plan. Last to arrive at aircraft, briefs the Senior and FO, accepts the FO's brief on the aircraft state.
- Show gets on the road.
2- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- Cabin crew proceed to aircraft, inspect the cabin, and if necessary board pax.
- Captain and FO check wx, NOTAMs, jointly agree the fuel, proceed to aircraft together, brief the Purser.
- Pilot not flying completes the walkaround, calls the engineers back (if needed)
- Show gets on the road.
3- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- Captain and FO find agreement on the fuel, log the plan.
- All of the crew gather and brief.
- All of the crew proceed to the aircraft together.
- Captain required to complete the first walkaround of the day, calls the engineers back (if needed)
- Show gets on the road.
and other minor variations on the theme.
In terms of boarding the passengers before the crew arrive, the cabin crew look after the passenger safety (as always) and are competent to evacuate. The engineers have already performed the daily inspection, so the only added risk is that you lose the liaison between ATC/Emergency Services/Company and the crew on the aircraft.
(For those that don't know, pilots are not generally licensed or considered competent to perform the daily inspection on a Category A aircraft. Category A aircraft are your general jet passenger carriers and similar. Pilot's require specific authorisation (after training) to sign the daily inspection on these, although they can, and do, complete the daily inspection on small training types. The "walkaround" is simply a general look for damage that may have occurred since the last inspection.)
In aviation we work on probability, and off the top of my head, I can only remember two incidents involving aircraft on the ramp. One was the Thai 737 where the centre tank fuel pumps were left running, and the centre tank exploded. The other was a refuelling incident in New Zealand, where a vehicle ran into the ground fuel connection, causing a high pressure geyser of fuel to erupt from the ground point and engulf the right wing, which subsequently ignited. I imagine there must be a couple of others - aircraft dropping on their tail, or bridge problems etc.
All in all, an acceptable risk level, I would think, given all of these events would occur anyway - we are just talking about the added risk of not having a flight crew. A competent management would undertake a risk assessment for any new procedure.
Absent pilots - two fewer lives for the cabin crew to worry about?
Last edited by Checkboard; 19th Aug 2008 at 23:34.
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PS: Because it's unfair of me to treat you like idiots
Ok Obie, but i think it's fair for me to say:
Obie, you muppet!!!
Rgds,
ATS
PS: if you have something to say, please rise your hand and place it over your mouth
OK .. now that most of the "sensible" stuff seems to have stopped I have a related question ....
I've noticed first wave dept. a/c having APU started up, heating/lighting on and then left with doors closed and no-one at all on board.
Engineers do the APU start/initiate and then move onto the next a/c. Can be 1hr before anyone returns.
OK no pax involved but are there any safety implications?
I've noticed first wave dept. a/c having APU started up, heating/lighting on and then left with doors closed and no-one at all on board.
Engineers do the APU start/initiate and then move onto the next a/c. Can be 1hr before anyone returns.
OK no pax involved but are there any safety implications?
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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No problems. The engineers have it. If the APU shuts down or there is a fire, automatic discharge of APU fire extinguisher occurs and external alarms ring.
This thread is extraordinary! Some people can't accept there is more than one way to skin a cat. Why are pilots so conservative and unable to accept another way of doing something? Their way is the only right way!
This thread is extraordinary! Some people can't accept there is more than one way to skin a cat. Why are pilots so conservative and unable to accept another way of doing something? Their way is the only right way!
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Why are pilots so conservative and unable to accept another way of doing something? Their way is the only right way!
Shock, horror, they say, but also consider it may well not be their fault...many of these same folks have been trained by staff who simply are not open to other ideas.
I would call these close-minded folks...one airline only know-it-alls.
A breed to be avoided, and often ignored.
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I boarded an Aer Lingus flight on Monday morning about 6am at Dublin Airport with no flightcrew onboard and just cabin crew whilst refuelling was taking place. Specifically remember this as the cabin crew kept repeating on PA not to fasten seatbelt as the aircraft was currently being refuelled.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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As it should be! No seat belts until fuelling completed, pairs of doors guarded by the crew at all times, engineers keeping tabs on the plane, flight attendant close access to evacuation alarm. Sounds like they were doing their job well and able to handle any problems until the pilots turned up. Probably saved a significant delay....and the world kept turning! What has this thread gone to 3 pages for?