Passenger boarding without flight crew - what does your airline do ? ....

[Artificial Horizon]

Every time we leave an aircraft the emergency lights are disarmed.

[wee one]

Well under rules forced on us by our yank masters the cockpit security check must be done before the boarding. The Flight crew are responible for that , not the engineers or anyone else.
EG Very easy for a disgruntled Engineer to drop a stroppy pilot in the sh1t by letting them board and secreting something whilst the captain has responsibility, and then informing DFT anonymously.
Not that I expect the yanks to adhere to anything. Just look at the Junpseat. Free use of it for crew in the states and bugger all in Puppet sates such as the UK.

[My 737]

If the CC arrive at a the A/C with no power, as happens quite often, can they now throw on the BAT and put the GND PWR on line, arm the Emergency Exit lights and start boarding? I think not.

What about defects that are written up in the tech log, where the MEL would ground the A/C or even not allow pax on board.
Asking for trouble in my opinion.

Fly safe.

[NigelOnDraft]

My 737...

If you read the above posts, you will see it is not possible to <<If the CC arrive at a the A/C with no power, as happens quite often, can they now throw on the BAT and put the GND PWR on line, arm the Emergency Exit lights and start boarding? I think not. >>

<<What about defects that are written up in the tech log, where the MEL would ground the A/C or even not allow pax on board>> Latter - such as? Former - OK, but for the 0.01% chance that applies, is is not worth having the [i]ability and procedures[i/] to do so, if deemed appropriate. For those of us on "hub" type operations, is it really worth delaying a flight for an extra 30+ mins because you have aircraft, Pax, Engineers, refueller, but Flt Crew late inbound on another flight?

As alluded to above, it rarely works out we use this "ability", but that is no reason not to say it should be forbidden...

<<Asking for trouble in my opinion.>> As also stated above, has been in place with one of the major UK carriers for at least 12 years, if not much more (probably dates back to BEA!). So whilst concerns are always worth expressing, we are not discussing something "new".

NoD

[Loose rivets]

Leaking fuel comes to mind. Doesn't happen much these days, but I've had a dripping wing a few times.

[SpamCanDriver]

Well in the airline with a smile CC are allowed to board without flightdeck and are even trained how to fire the APU bottle should there be a fire

[nrm2]

Have to say, lots of great and very interesting views on the whole boarding without cockpit crew issue, its interesting that procedures vary so widely across the industry. I wonder with the introduction of EU ops for european airlines (as opposed to JAR ops) will policies and procedures like this one become more standardised?

So heres my 2 cents worth and how we do it:

The CC are permitted to board passengers without cockpit crew on board provided the aircraft is not being fueled and a full cabin crew compliment is present.

In relation to how we know if fueling has happened or not - just ask the dispatcher - they are responsible for all aspects of the turnaround and should be aware.

Concerning aircraft servicability - in base an engineer is present for the majority of the turnaround and generally are great about informing us of defects or problems that would stop us boarding. Obviously the purser should be able to make an judgement as to whether to hold off. It is rare that we would be downroute and the pilots would not be present, happens the odd time on long haul ops but its rare.

In relation to passenger safety and potention emergencys while on the ground, whilst the cabin crew dont claim to know as much about the aircraft as the cockpit crew we are still trained to operate on our aircraft and are aware of whats normal and what we should be concerned about, eg smoke, fire, strange smells or noises from the aircraft. In the absence of either pilot the purser becomes the most senior crew member onboard and the decision of whether or not to evacuate the cabin rests with him / her.

Please dont jump down my throat for that comment - we are aware of how much more the pilots know about the aircraft than us, the point im making is that we know whats normal and whats not onboard and have the ability to get the passengers off quickly if we feel it is necessary. After all if the pilots ever gave the command to evacuate it would be the cabin crew that carried out the evacuation.

Finally in relation to cockpit security and access - crew must be at their stations for boarding, the purser and usually at least 1 other crew member are always in the area of the fwd galley and as such the cockpit door. No access would be granted to anyone other than an engineer.

Anyway - again im not saying our procedures are right or wrong - but thats just my view on how we overcome some of the problems mentioned in previous posts.

Looking forward to hearing more on this post - its an interesting one!

[AnQrKa]

411A,

"works like a charm".

Of course it does, right up until the point when a fire breaks out. Then it wont work at all.

I used to agree - board pax without flight crew no probs.

But then I read an article about a DL 727 that cought fire at the gate and went up in smoke really quickly. Only a handfull of pax onboard just managed to get out. Then China airlines went up in smoke in Japan so quickly it would make your head spin.

But more importantly - why board with no pilots. If the crew are arriving fresh to an aircraft, its going to take up to 30 mins to get settled, turn stuff on, read the tech log etc.

start the boarding then.

[AAIGUY]

But what do you care if a fire breaks out and kills all the pax?

you're not responsible till you pitch up to the thing.

If the company choses to operate like this , they are the ones in the ****.

Seems win win.. You spend less time waiting in the cockpit for SLF, company can operate more efficently.

All this stuff about "what if" is really over the top..

Your responsibility doesn't include planes the company owns, but you've not checked on to.

I can see the Cabin Crew Union being pissed about it. It's not as safe for them if there is an issue, but tech crews have nothing really to do with it.

[411A]

<<But more importantly - why board with no pilots.>>

Many times, flight duty limitations, at least in our case.
At a remote parking bay, pax boarding is normally a long process (362 pax, in our case) and the FD flight duty periods are normally long (16 hours max) but CC are allowed to go to 18 hours, same for ground engineers (we carry a minimum of two, always) so it makes perfect sense.

Fire on the ground?
Ground engineers are always present, and they have been properly trained for such occasions....as are CC for cabin difficulties.

[Aldente]

Thanks for the feedback, some interesting points raised......

Now how about this one ? (same airline !) latest missive from Chief Pilot is that passenger head count will be done and TOB figure passed to and confirmed with Captain after the doors have been closed ......

[Dropline]

Ridiculous idea. If the headcount is wrong, how are ground staff supposed to carry out their duties if the a/c has been closed up. Mistakes can be made during the boarding process, especially one as quick and chaotic as this airline adopts, and ground staff need to be able to access to the a/c in order to establish either who is missing, (and if they have checked bags in), or who the EXTRA pax may be. I have had arguments with Captains of this particular airline who were rushing to meet their turnaround time and could not understand that as a dispatcher I need to know EXACTLY who is or is not on board an aircraft before I will allow it to depart. Closing the door prior to the headcount is going to cause more problems than it resolves. Often I prefer to do the headcount myself, so I know it has been done properly - how can I do that if the door has been closed?

[Ray D'Avecta]

At my airline, there has to be at least one FD crew member present for passenger boarding to commence (plus the full complement of CC).....and the VHF radios must be continuosly monitored while the a/c is on the ground with pax or crew on board..............and we jolly well like it like that! ......cos we dont have to worry about the Cabin crew learning to operate the radios if there are no FD crew present.

We also have the option, SCD, to have the headcount done after the doors are closed. This is usually for delay reporting and pushback truck / start up clearance sequencing, and is more relevant at some airfields than others, depending on whether we are on an airbridge or on the ramp, etc. It is particularly useful at our very busy home base where the pushback truck will not even attach until the doors are closed and beacon on.

Have to say though that the number of occassions that the headcount and loadsheet figures do not tally is relatively very small......maybe we are just very lucky to have very good handling agents so it works for us.

[Abusing_the_sky]

maybe we are just very lucky to have very good handling agents

Aaahhhh, but you ARE very lucky

This airline's handling agent is well known for c@ckups. 3 out of 4 flights have wrong figures at the gate. So closing the doors and then do a headcount is such a daft idea.
However, the Memo doesn't say you can't do a headcount with the doors open...

[sevenstrokeroll]

dispatcher

funny how in England a dispatcher is at the plane making sure the turnaround goes well

in the USA a dispatcher is in a building thousands of miles from most airports, he checks the wx and the fuel load and files the flight plane (usually a canned flight plan) and argues with pilots about how much fuel to carry.

In the USA a dispatcher is a licensed professional, having to take a written exam similiar to the ATP written.

hmmmm

[411A]

Having worked under both scenarios, sevenstrokeroll, I would have to say I prefer the UK/Europe idea...except for one area, re-dispatch/re-release enroute.
With the latter, having that licensed dispatcher available has many advantages, thus possibly prevently a slightly rosey glow being put on by the operating crew, when in actual fact the destination and alternate wx is going in the cra*per.

[Stop Stop Stop]

In my company, the captain is "...responsible for the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board, as soon as he arrives on board, until he leaves the aircraft at the end of the flight."

This would suggest that if a passenger should become injured whilst boarding, or prior to the arrival of the captain, then there would be no-one officially responsible for that injury. It would hardly be fair for the captain to be made responsible for this injury and have to complete accident forms and ASR's etc. Would that be the responsibility of the No.1?

No, I cannot see any reason to board without flight deck crew. It makes no sense. If the ground staff want to expedite boarding, get the passengers ready at the gate or get the bus waiting outside the aircraft ready to board as soon as the crew arrive. After all, even if they are all sitting in the cabin, the cockpit crew still have to do their checks which could be done whilst they are boarding.

If there was a MEL item that precluded boarding, would the cabin crew know that or be aware? I suspect not. This is a case where the 'tail is wagging the dog.' Captains at these airlines should put their foot down and not accept this ridiculous policy, clearly imposed by management types and beancounters who have no clue about aircraft operation, other than delay codes. Time to put the capital C back into Captain!

[slip and turn]

I agree that things should be sharpened up a bit.

Apart from no presentation of passport required to cross to airside and reach the gate at one major UK airport we also have a new routine at the same airport which involves cursory pre-inspection of passports 'in the vicinity' of the gate. In an effort to trim boarding times even further the inspections now often do not occur 'at the counter' but they now come to you McDonalds Pre-Order style in the (open) queues, with no further presentation of anything required to walk through to the aircraft ten minutes later.

Very slack.

As for captain in charge bit, the law says it's from when the doors shut I think, which is perhaps why we get all these exploitative variations creeping in.

And as for who is potentially liable during boarding for any injuries well I guess with some airlines it depends on whether you board at the front or the back.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Face it, we control very little.

I recall advising the gate agent not to board as there were 3 hour deciing delays at Boston.

He boarded behind my back and a real row came about. I asked him if he wouldn't rather be stuck in a nice waiting lounge with phones (before cell phones were super big), a place to buy food or a newspaper or on a plane with peanuts.

He told me I didn't have the authority to stop boarding.

I said, all I have to do is disarm the emergency lights and order the flight attendants off.

Mexican standoff for about a minute.

He then got the passengers off and we waited 3 hours.

face it, captains are nothing now a days except for scapegoats when something goes wrong.

[411A]

face it, captains are nothing now a days except for scapegoats when something goes wrong.

Well, it depends.

In the middle east/Africa areas where I fly (don't fly to the UAE, so can't say about there) the FD crew are waived right on through security, with a 'good evening Sir' (yup, true) and when arriving at the airplane, with pax boarding already in progress, there seem to be very few problems.
Why is this?
It is the Captain who sets the tone, and assigns duties as necessary, to make it all work smoothly.
Example.
Company calls the Captain at hotac and says...boarding in three hours.
Capt says...OK, do ground engineers agree?
Handling agent says, yes. Capt checks by mobile phone to be sure.
Good enough, boarding at your pleasure, CC will be present beforehand.
One half hour prior to scheduled boarding, CC arrive and complete safety checks.
Catering starts.
Pax arrive shortly thereafter.
FD crew arrives shortly after nearly all pax boarded.
Tech log/DD log checked, fuel load checked (Capt has been contacted previously about this, and given an OK), wind up the IRU's (if not already commenced by ground engineers), flight plan into the FMS's, baggage loading now completed, pax loading completed, head count OK, ask for ATC clearance, close doors, ask for start clearance.

Works like clockwork...provided it is all organized.
Our...are.
Others...I have no idea.

There is a definite reason ours work well.
The answer is...nearly all (except Commanders) are ex- Royal Jordanian.
RJ...one of the best in the business, in the middle east.
True years ago, true now.

'Tis an absolute pleasure to work for these ex-RJ folks...the best in the business.

Find an ex-RJ crew, find happiness.