MPL – We told you so…
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Am I the only PPrune who finds one of the Google ads (to the left of these messages) REALLY distasteful?
"
Russian Cargo Plane Crash
Nine Dead In Russian Plane Crash Watch Online!"
YUK!
Join Date: Nov 2007
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What a huge relief that I may never have to share my flightdeck with someone that can't even fly a cessna 152.
Any way I would rather sit next to someone who can sort the fms out than one who can do chandelles in a 152. (is that how you spell chandelles?)
Join Date: Dec 1999
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What a huge relief that I may never have to share my flightdeck with someone that can't even fly a cessna 152.
Thought not - it typically takes some re-learning.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Re learning
So what does an MPL pilot relearn? How to sort the FM's? Seat of the pants experience (whether one has seen the horizon upside down or not) still counts for something in my flight deck.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I dont see how you could tell whether he was an MPL or ATPL. The dont have it tattood on their forehead. An ATPL could have spent many hours time building in a 152. The MPL will have spent all his hours on positive training with lots of Jet upset training in a in a decent sim. Re cat 2/3 operations. No pilot undertakes these unless trained and approved to do so whether he has an MPL, ATPL, 20.000hrs or 200.
If I had an airline equipped with 737NGs and I needed pilots then I would hire these guys right away.
If I had an airline not equipped with 737NGs but something similar like A320s then I would hire these guys right away. They would be easier to train rather than someone who was an expert on Cessna 150s.
These guys were well trained by Sterling to the highest standards and I am sure that they would be a better asset on the flight deck of a B737/A320 than someone with minimum exerience.
My only worry would be whether they have learned in the meantime to be as militant as some of their Sterling colleagues have been in the past.
If I had an airline not equipped with 737NGs but something similar like A320s then I would hire these guys right away. They would be easier to train rather than someone who was an expert on Cessna 150s.
These guys were well trained by Sterling to the highest standards and I am sure that they would be a better asset on the flight deck of a B737/A320 than someone with minimum exerience.
My only worry would be whether they have learned in the meantime to be as militant as some of their Sterling colleagues have been in the past.
you all might as well begin training of other mammals to fly airplanes--or perhaps robots as this is what the industry there seems to want---because MPL can't replace sound experienced judgment----unless you don't want any independent thinking--believe you wont get it
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I have more than 6500 hrs TT, 3000 PIC medium jets (A320/737). I have an ATPL, naturally. I did a CAA 'approved' course (200hrs) and some private PPL flying before I got my first job as a jet FO.
What exactly is it that you think I learnt in the 51 hours of solo flying (circuit-bashing, hour-building navexes, PFLs) which I had before I earned my command, that the MPL pilots have missed out on? Or maybe you think that hours of flying manually round the hold was good preparation for commanding a modern jet, 'cause I did that too.
I think the best (i.e. relevant, interesting, useful) bit of my route to a CPL was the 50 hours of MCC training, post-IR, with a mate in a jet sim. Only then did it all make sense.
I am not worried about the ability of MPL holders to fly an aircraft, more that the MPL scheme seems rather airline-specific, and therefore keeps pilots almost in hock to their 'parent' airline - not a good thing for industry terms and conditions.
What exactly is it that you think I learnt in the 51 hours of solo flying (circuit-bashing, hour-building navexes, PFLs) which I had before I earned my command, that the MPL pilots have missed out on? Or maybe you think that hours of flying manually round the hold was good preparation for commanding a modern jet, 'cause I did that too.
I think the best (i.e. relevant, interesting, useful) bit of my route to a CPL was the 50 hours of MCC training, post-IR, with a mate in a jet sim. Only then did it all make sense.
I am not worried about the ability of MPL holders to fly an aircraft, more that the MPL scheme seems rather airline-specific, and therefore keeps pilots almost in hock to their 'parent' airline - not a good thing for industry terms and conditions.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UAE
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Pugilistic,
The aim of the MPL is to make a pilots training experiences more relevant to the job he is going to do. A pilot who graduates with an MPL is no less experienced than one with a CPL/IR he has just experienced more relevant training!
The aim of the MPL is to make a pilots training experiences more relevant to the job he is going to do. A pilot who graduates with an MPL is no less experienced than one with a CPL/IR he has just experienced more relevant training!
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Join Date: Jul 1999
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I dont think many of you guys sen the forest for the trees!
It is not whether an MPL holder is better than a CPL/IR holder or the route its taken to get there. Most of the sub 500hr guys and girls I have flown with are still in over their heads with having obtained the window seat. Its not till the gloss wears off that they become seasoned operators.
The point is simply a CPL/IR guy has other options and will easily transition to completing another rating, given the local requirements.
On the other hand, a MPL is simply a permit to operate a particular type of aircraft. Should a MPL holder even be offered a job to fly tourists or the like. They can not.
The "licence" for want of a better term is and industry restriction that has once again lowered the prospects for a candidate and further denied the narrow view in some parts of europe that a "light aircraft" is anything less than an ATR and hence is irrelevant.
Its a shame really to think this is happening and many forms of "Light aviation", pay better and have much better lifestyles that those of the "airline" world.
Which is something an MPL holder, will never realise or experience. Welcome to regulated slavery.
It is not whether an MPL holder is better than a CPL/IR holder or the route its taken to get there. Most of the sub 500hr guys and girls I have flown with are still in over their heads with having obtained the window seat. Its not till the gloss wears off that they become seasoned operators.
The point is simply a CPL/IR guy has other options and will easily transition to completing another rating, given the local requirements.
On the other hand, a MPL is simply a permit to operate a particular type of aircraft. Should a MPL holder even be offered a job to fly tourists or the like. They can not.
The "licence" for want of a better term is and industry restriction that has once again lowered the prospects for a candidate and further denied the narrow view in some parts of europe that a "light aircraft" is anything less than an ATR and hence is irrelevant.
Its a shame really to think this is happening and many forms of "Light aviation", pay better and have much better lifestyles that those of the "airline" world.
Which is something an MPL holder, will never realise or experience. Welcome to regulated slavery.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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All good points, but that is the aim of the MPL is to mitigate what is your main concern - the lack of awareness in a jet flightdeck, so that it is not over their heads.
Be that as it may, are the comments above relating to the lack of ability to fly other aircraft really true? I feel there is still a great deal of conjecture and lack of hard facts concerning the reality.
Be that as it may, are the comments above relating to the lack of ability to fly other aircraft really true? I feel there is still a great deal of conjecture and lack of hard facts concerning the reality.
Join Date: May 2000
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All good points, but that is the aim of the MPL is to mitigate what is your main concern - the lack of awareness in a jet flightdeck, so that it is not over their heads.
A bunch of simulator time makes the person aware of procedures in canned scenarios. It makes him somewhat aware of CRM. However, it does not make him aware of the realities of flying in real-world airspace with its real-world dynamics.
A MPL pilot does not even qualify for the basic real-world experience level of a US Commercial Pilot License or Instrument Rating. A bunch of extra simulator time -- much of which is merely OBSERVING others do stuff -- does not make up for this. "Air sense" is gotten in the AIR, not in a simulator. I do not believe these new MPL pilots will have the required air sense for a LONG TIME to be effective pilots.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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If it were simply procedural, a fixed-base sim would be all that is used for anyone's semi-annual checkride, and zero flight time conversions would not exist.
Besides, this is all conjecture - does any commentator on here have any experience of this whatsoever - are the abilities of the Sterling guys any better or not, whatever our preconceptions here?
Besides, this is all conjecture - does any commentator on here have any experience of this whatsoever - are the abilities of the Sterling guys any better or not, whatever our preconceptions here?
Join Date: Aug 2007
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For sake of argument... IF these folks were to gain enough seniority to be eligible within Sterling to become Captains... Could they?
Personal opinion.... MPL is almost the same as letting a 16 year old take the wheel of a semi-trailer down the autobahn
. It`s not about skills and checklists and memory items you can study for in your hotel room or practise in a sim, it`s about airmanship, situational awareness and aircraft handling. It`s also about not letting the industry let you buy your way past a lot of others who also want to be professional, e.g. being paid from day 1 of employment to be put through a typerating.
Personal opinion.... MPL is almost the same as letting a 16 year old take the wheel of a semi-trailer down the autobahn
. It`s not about skills and checklists and memory items you can study for in your hotel room or practise in a sim, it`s about airmanship, situational awareness and aircraft handling. It`s also about not letting the industry let you buy your way past a lot of others who also want to be professional, e.g. being paid from day 1 of employment to be put through a typerating.
Join Date: May 2000
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For sake of argument... IF these folks were to gain enough seniority to be eligible within Sterling to become Captains... Could they?
Join Date: Dec 1999
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For sake of argument... IF these folks were to gain enough seniority to be eligible within Sterling to become Captains... Could they?
When eligible for an ATPL, exactly as a CPL with ATPL exams, an MPL can gain an ATPL and act as PIC. Read: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...7_W_104_en.pdf
ICAO | FLS | FAQs
For goodness sake, if you feel strongly against the MPL, post reasonable opinions, but do not wade in and state utter rubbish!
The only reason I feel an MPL should be wary is the lack of fidelity in replicating an air traffic environment - not in replicating flight itself or handling. A FFS is not a procedures trainer!
Join Date: May 2000
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An MPL pilot CANNOT be PIC of an airliner, except when the Captain is disabled and the MPL pilot takes over in a dire emergency. That was the thrust of Guttn's question and my response.
Indeed, an MPL pilot can try to get an ATPL. However, NOTHING in NATS 104-2007 (cited by you above) exempts the MPL holder from ANY of the CPL or ATPL requirements. Therefore, ALL the solo FLIGHT time and dual FLIGHT instruction requirements must be met. It is likely that the average MPL pilot will not attain those in the right seat of a 737 or A320. Even the ICAO FAQ you cite clearly states that:
Also, that ICAO FAQ does not hint of ANY exemption from ANY of the flight time and flight instruction requirements of a CPL or ATPL.
My response was not "rubbish" in any way, shape, or form.
Indeed, an MPL pilot can try to get an ATPL. However, NOTHING in NATS 104-2007 (cited by you above) exempts the MPL holder from ANY of the CPL or ATPL requirements. Therefore, ALL the solo FLIGHT time and dual FLIGHT instruction requirements must be met. It is likely that the average MPL pilot will not attain those in the right seat of a 737 or A320. Even the ICAO FAQ you cite clearly states that:
MPL holders cannot exercise the privileges of a CPL and instrument ratings on single pilot aeroplane without meeting specific actual flight time and flight instruction requirements.
My response was not "rubbish" in any way, shape, or form.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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It is hardly relevant, as you said in your own words "at least by US FAA rules", while the FAA do not yet issue MPLs - if we consider the MPL in Europe though, the rules are set out as below.
http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf
p214 is the page. You are correct that there does not appear to be any framework to move to an ATPL as yet, but that does not mean that there will not be one - none of those with MPLs are likely to meet the flight time requirements as yet.
However, your first response was based upon the FAA - hardly useful guidance for a European MPL holder.
http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf
p214 is the page. You are correct that there does not appear to be any framework to move to an ATPL as yet, but that does not mean that there will not be one - none of those with MPLs are likely to meet the flight time requirements as yet.
However, your first response was based upon the FAA - hardly useful guidance for a European MPL holder.
There is nothing wrong with the MPL qualification per se, it is still very new and will require some modification and addition as experience dictates.
The main problem is the fact that it is airline specific. I believe this is an artificial constraint, in place to protect the vested interests of "traditional" FTO's and also the employing airlines. Successful expansion of the MPL would cut out the "middle men" would it not? Can't have CPL/IR instructors and examiners out of a job now can we? Of course the airlines love it too, a captive "slave" market.
As for all the "they have no real experience" crowd, well, everybody starts with zero real experience on their first line flight. My 400 odd hrs on light aircraft taught me a limited amount that i could take onto my first jet, I was "on the back of the drag curve" competence wise for my first few hundred hours i can tell you. Its similar for everyone regardless of background, thats what the experienced captain sitting next to the new starter should be there for, as a mentor and "real world" instructor to get them up to speed.
The main problem is the fact that it is airline specific. I believe this is an artificial constraint, in place to protect the vested interests of "traditional" FTO's and also the employing airlines. Successful expansion of the MPL would cut out the "middle men" would it not? Can't have CPL/IR instructors and examiners out of a job now can we? Of course the airlines love it too, a captive "slave" market.
As for all the "they have no real experience" crowd, well, everybody starts with zero real experience on their first line flight. My 400 odd hrs on light aircraft taught me a limited amount that i could take onto my first jet, I was "on the back of the drag curve" competence wise for my first few hundred hours i can tell you. Its similar for everyone regardless of background, thats what the experienced captain sitting next to the new starter should be there for, as a mentor and "real world" instructor to get them up to speed.