MPL – We told you so…
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MPL – We told you so…
As reported in an aviation weekly the MPL is causing trouble, in the same vein as the AERAD thread, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it!
As stated due to current economic conditions one of the first firms to use MPL candidates had put several of them off, as the candidates have no licence to operate any other aircraft other than their rating, they are screwed.
One of the carriers in Germany is having massive trouble getting its candidates through and is seriously considering dropping the whole thing (due to various factors it must be stressed).
What might have worked well in the days of protected industry of national majors, is simple an un-attainable dream in the real world of low-cost, open market and high fuel prices.
I hate to say we told you so, but seriously.
It was dodgy from day one to put your money into a licence that that is only good for one aircraft. The chickens have come home to roost.
Add to this the spat between EASA and the FAA requiring all FAA instructors in the US training EU pilots to have EU qualifications…… its all going to get ugly.
So please EASA, if its not broken don’t try and fix it, you will never do it cheaper than the westerns side of the puddle, and the weather is better anyway.
The reason for posting this here and not in wannabees is that most of us qualified people avoid it like the plague.
As stated due to current economic conditions one of the first firms to use MPL candidates had put several of them off, as the candidates have no licence to operate any other aircraft other than their rating, they are screwed.
One of the carriers in Germany is having massive trouble getting its candidates through and is seriously considering dropping the whole thing (due to various factors it must be stressed).
What might have worked well in the days of protected industry of national majors, is simple an un-attainable dream in the real world of low-cost, open market and high fuel prices.
I hate to say we told you so, but seriously.
It was dodgy from day one to put your money into a licence that that is only good for one aircraft. The chickens have come home to roost.
Add to this the spat between EASA and the FAA requiring all FAA instructors in the US training EU pilots to have EU qualifications…… its all going to get ugly.
So please EASA, if its not broken don’t try and fix it, you will never do it cheaper than the westerns side of the puddle, and the weather is better anyway.
The reason for posting this here and not in wannabees is that most of us qualified people avoid it like the plague.
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Hog Driver
Just Because An Airline Has Laid Off A Number Of Pilots, Some Conventionally Trained And Some Through Mpl, It Does Not Mean That The Mpl Is Flawed. All The Mpl Pilots Got Through Line Training In Good Time. Have The Conventionally Trained Pilots Been Re-employed On Different Types?
Your Argument Seems To Be That Any Change To Improve Flight Crew Training Is Wrong. Somewhat Ludite Me Thinks!
Just Because An Airline Has Laid Off A Number Of Pilots, Some Conventionally Trained And Some Through Mpl, It Does Not Mean That The Mpl Is Flawed. All The Mpl Pilots Got Through Line Training In Good Time. Have The Conventionally Trained Pilots Been Re-employed On Different Types?
Your Argument Seems To Be That Any Change To Improve Flight Crew Training Is Wrong. Somewhat Ludite Me Thinks!
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No, the whole argument of MPL is about getting enough good quality candidates to sign up to the scheme and hand over ~£30K (courses being part sponsored)
Now that wanabes realise:
I do the course with £30k of my own money
I do some line flying, great.,
Then get fired when times get tough
Have a licence which useless else where;
Therefore wanabe basicaly stuffed as wont get job anywhere else;
Whose gona sign up to this!? Yes it might be a good deal for the airlines, but where they gona get the students if they see this as a highly risky route. It aint cheaper than normal CPL/IR route anyway. Therefore wannabe far better off doing it the old fashioned route.
MPL will only work under a fully sponsored scheme (ie airline pays for all training). Been saying this all along.
Now that wanabes realise:
I do the course with £30k of my own money
I do some line flying, great.,
Then get fired when times get tough
Have a licence which useless else where;
Therefore wanabe basicaly stuffed as wont get job anywhere else;
Whose gona sign up to this!? Yes it might be a good deal for the airlines, but where they gona get the students if they see this as a highly risky route. It aint cheaper than normal CPL/IR route anyway. Therefore wannabe far better off doing it the old fashioned route.
MPL will only work under a fully sponsored scheme (ie airline pays for all training). Been saying this all along.
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All The Mpl Pilots Got Through Line Training In Good Time.
Have The Conventionally Trained Pilots Been Re-employed On Different Types?
However those that had been trained to "Plane X" proficiency, and are now in a no-mans land as the Plane X deliveries have been suspended and another type is coming.
There is no fudge factor as there are no rules EASA/JAA as to what credits will be given to candidates re-retraing on another type. One national regulator is saying "Start Again".
All this cost money.
There are no public figures available, however just running the numbers as to hours at discount sim rates, in comparison to conventionally trained pilots, there is zero if not negative financial benefit.
Who is "we"
Both poor buggers are scratching their heads, thinking how to get out of this mess delivered to them by boardroom/fleet planning decisions that have stuck them with lame ducks.
Both of these airlines are actively seconding crews to other european and middle east airlines. So I am sure you have heard the buzz out there.
Why change for change sake? It has not been thought through well at all, and once again the line schwein have to deal with someone else' feckup!
Where is the accountability?
Any Change To Improve Flight Crew Training Is Wrong
At least with a conventional CPL/IR they could forage for anything.
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The point I make is that the redundancies at Sterling have nothing to do with the students being MPL trained.
As for re-employment of those who lost their job, lets see what happens. The MPL pilots are just as employable on 737 as their counterparts. The conventionally trained pilots will still have to get a type rating on a new type.
The proof of the pudding will be in how good the MPL graduates prove to be. If it is a good product then more and more Airlines will be happy to employ them. Admittedly this will take time.
Pleasing to see that MPL is not being viewed as a cheap way of pilot training!
Here is the first part of the article stating that 61 employees have been laid off, 13 of which are MPL Pilots.
The world’s first MPL-rated airline pilots are to be laid off this November. Danish carrier Sterling Airlines are dismissing 61 employees as part of cutbacks forced on the carrier due to high fuel prices and the economic downturn, and the MPL-rated pilots will be amongst those to go.
The thirteen MPL pilots are due to finish with Sterling this November and given their training at Danish Center Air Pilot Academy was focused specifically on Sterling Airlines standard operating procedures (SOPs), they may find it hard to find employment elsewhere.
Sterling's chief pilot Claus Gammelgaard told FTN that the dismissal of the MPL pilots was in no way related to their piloting skills, but merely based on their last-in, first-out employment practise. He said that they were "extremely satisfied" with their level of piloting ability, but faced with the need for redundancies Sterling had no option but to dismiss them.
As for re-employment of those who lost their job, lets see what happens. The MPL pilots are just as employable on 737 as their counterparts. The conventionally trained pilots will still have to get a type rating on a new type.
The proof of the pudding will be in how good the MPL graduates prove to be. If it is a good product then more and more Airlines will be happy to employ them. Admittedly this will take time.
Pleasing to see that MPL is not being viewed as a cheap way of pilot training!
Here is the first part of the article stating that 61 employees have been laid off, 13 of which are MPL Pilots.
The world’s first MPL-rated airline pilots are to be laid off this November. Danish carrier Sterling Airlines are dismissing 61 employees as part of cutbacks forced on the carrier due to high fuel prices and the economic downturn, and the MPL-rated pilots will be amongst those to go.
The thirteen MPL pilots are due to finish with Sterling this November and given their training at Danish Center Air Pilot Academy was focused specifically on Sterling Airlines standard operating procedures (SOPs), they may find it hard to find employment elsewhere.
Sterling's chief pilot Claus Gammelgaard told FTN that the dismissal of the MPL pilots was in no way related to their piloting skills, but merely based on their last-in, first-out employment practise. He said that they were "extremely satisfied" with their level of piloting ability, but faced with the need for redundancies Sterling had no option but to dismiss them.
Last edited by Ayla; 11th Aug 2008 at 16:38.
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So what other airlines accept applications from "pilots" with an MPL?
Of course the cheif pilot is going to say there is nothing wrong with his pilots. C`mon, what else can he really say? I really hope this MPL scam stops here and now, because it eventually will deteriorate the level of profession in aviation. There is a world of difference between a pilot and a system operator. Enough said.
Of course the cheif pilot is going to say there is nothing wrong with his pilots. C`mon, what else can he really say? I really hope this MPL scam stops here and now, because it eventually will deteriorate the level of profession in aviation. There is a world of difference between a pilot and a system operator. Enough said.
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Now What?
In my country, when the window on the airlines closes for us pilots, we have alternatives, we can look for a job on a business jet maybe (no need for a type rating if you are copilot by our rules) or maybe a job in the left seat of a King Air (only IFR/Multi/CPL needed). Even a job on a piston multi could pay your bills. BUT if you have a MPL you cannot even rent a 152 to fly around your grandma!
No thanks.....
No thanks.....
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Sounds like an MPL is better than a bond for keeping crews at an airline - at the airlines convenience, of course. If you've had to pay for the privilage as well.....
Glad I have an old fashioned licence.
Chips
Glad I have an old fashioned licence.
Chips
Jack's Granddad
ouns, and the start of a new sentence are usually where a capital letter feels most at home. Makes you look like an idiot writing like a 7 year old.
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I really hope this MPL scam stops here and now, because it eventually will deteriorate the level of profession in aviation. There is a world of difference between a pilot and a system operator. Enough said.
This thread contains more than its fair share of utter tosh.
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Spicejetter, apologies for the capital letters causing you upset. I wrote it all in capitals for emphesis, when it moved to the thread it changed form.
Anything to contribute on the content of this thread or are you just policing PPRUNE for errors in grammar and hunting down spelling mistakes?
Anything to contribute on the content of this thread or are you just policing PPRUNE for errors in grammar and hunting down spelling mistakes?
Just so everyone knows what they are talking about this is the syllabus and experience that the Sterling MPL'ers should have had:-
Pre-entry testCAPA & Sterling
Week 1 -6 PPL Theory/ Nat. Beg/ Core Flying Air Exercises 0 –5
Week 7 -9 Core Flying Air Exercises 6 –10 –First Solo
Week 10 -13 Core Flying Air Exercises 11 -18
Week 13 -16 Gen. Cert. –Core Flying Air Exercises 19 –24
Week 17 -58 ATPL Theory –Core Flying Air Exercises 25 –34Sterling entry test
Week 58 -64 Instrument Briefings –Core Flying Air Exercises 35 –53
Week 64 -67 AssumetricBriefings –Core Flying Air Exercises 54 –60
Week 68 -70 MCC/TEM Ground School –Basic MCC 1 –5
Week 71 -80 EM cont. –Basic MCC 6 –15
Week 81 -85 Introduction and Job Rotation in Sterling Airlines
Week 85 -86 B737 Ground School CBT/Performance/Mass and Balance
Week 86 -87 Emergency Training –Intermediate FFS 1 –5
Week 88 -89 Advanced FFS 1 –10 / MPL Skill Test
Week 90 Aircraft Training –12 Take offs and Landings
Week 91 -100 Route Training B737 NG –100 Block hours/40 legs
•A/C (1/2 eng) 76 hours
•FNPT II Multieng / MCC 110 hours
•B 737 Jet proc 20 hours
•B 737 FFS C/D 44 hours
•MPL total 250 hours
•B 737 A/C approx. 1hr (12 T/O & landings)
•Route trainingB737 100 hours
Pre-entry testCAPA & Sterling
Week 1 -6 PPL Theory/ Nat. Beg/ Core Flying Air Exercises 0 –5
Week 7 -9 Core Flying Air Exercises 6 –10 –First Solo
Week 10 -13 Core Flying Air Exercises 11 -18
Week 13 -16 Gen. Cert. –Core Flying Air Exercises 19 –24
Week 17 -58 ATPL Theory –Core Flying Air Exercises 25 –34Sterling entry test
Week 58 -64 Instrument Briefings –Core Flying Air Exercises 35 –53
Week 64 -67 AssumetricBriefings –Core Flying Air Exercises 54 –60
Week 68 -70 MCC/TEM Ground School –Basic MCC 1 –5
Week 71 -80 EM cont. –Basic MCC 6 –15
Week 81 -85 Introduction and Job Rotation in Sterling Airlines
Week 85 -86 B737 Ground School CBT/Performance/Mass and Balance
Week 86 -87 Emergency Training –Intermediate FFS 1 –5
Week 88 -89 Advanced FFS 1 –10 / MPL Skill Test
Week 90 Aircraft Training –12 Take offs and Landings
Week 91 -100 Route Training B737 NG –100 Block hours/40 legs
•A/C (1/2 eng) 76 hours
•FNPT II Multieng / MCC 110 hours
•B 737 Jet proc 20 hours
•B 737 FFS C/D 44 hours
•MPL total 250 hours
•B 737 A/C approx. 1hr (12 T/O & landings)
•Route trainingB737 100 hours
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What a pity for these young hopefuls, that their dreams have taken a sharp knock. However, it will serve them well in the future, when they realise how fickle their chosen career might be. What is required now is not "I told you so" but whether an enterprising school can come up with an economical conversion to a recognised CPL or frozen ATPL that will enable them to apply for jobs elsewhere. I have no doubt that the current initial licensing course to a frozen ATPL required modernisation and that the MPL may not be the finished article, but this profession never rests on its' laurels and fine tuning is always required. "Last in, first out" is a harsh welcome for anyone, but such is life.