REPORT YOUR HEADING TO..........
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JuicyLucy, sorry to disapoint you but it will still apply at Swanwick too, we can't transfer any restrictions or headings on the computer, and phoning through every one is just too time consuming. You certainly need to visit a centre to see the operations. As for destination, this can occur from a number of reasons. If your details are late coming out of the printer from the last ATCC, or haven't even been sent, we ask for it to give you an initial routing. Another common one is where your flight plan is different from the one sent by the message, and our computer cannot decide which it is, so we check to be sure (AAL and Brussels???).
As to the original thread, it is getting all to common for an a/c to check in with just callsign, we have to check the cleared FL and and vectoring instructions, normal if exitting the London TMA. Some people check every one as a rule, others will let a few go by if there is no conflict around. I as one always reply with 'pass your message' which has thrown a few so far, but its what your supposed to do, and we do need to know. Past threads on this have been replied with, 'but if its busy, the last thing we want to do is clog the RT'. Actually if it busy, the last thing we want is for you not to check in properly, saves time going back and checking.
On a side note, congratulations to all who flew yesterday; in my bit the weather was appauling, well increasing my workload, but everyone knew the situation and helped out brilliantly, thanks guys and gals.
As to the original thread, it is getting all to common for an a/c to check in with just callsign, we have to check the cleared FL and and vectoring instructions, normal if exitting the London TMA. Some people check every one as a rule, others will let a few go by if there is no conflict around. I as one always reply with 'pass your message' which has thrown a few so far, but its what your supposed to do, and we do need to know. Past threads on this have been replied with, 'but if its busy, the last thing we want to do is clog the RT'. Actually if it busy, the last thing we want is for you not to check in properly, saves time going back and checking.
On a side note, congratulations to all who flew yesterday; in my bit the weather was appauling, well increasing my workload, but everyone knew the situation and helped out brilliantly, thanks guys and gals.
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I don't often get hot under the collar (Mrs NorthernSky doesn't like it - she has to give me one of her Indian head massages afterwards, and we usually end up opening a more costly bottle than we normally would...) but some of the remarks here do not indicate a professional attitude to our work.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, in that order. However, where ATC have applied separation, there is a definite need under all three headings to communicate details of that separation to the next controller.
Often, that separation is applied just prior to transfer in order to ensure that the presentation of traffic to the next sector is correct, so electronic transfer would not be fast enough anyway.
We should be sufficiently aware of this to give priority to this important task. Too many of us miss the basics of good RTF - and this leads to incidents and accidents. Read the transcripts of the Tenerife tragedy, for example, to see the effect of dubious communication.
Many very senior pilots, training staff included, don't know or don't bother with the elementary stuff, such as reading back instructions which require a mandatory read-back.
Let's all take the original post as a reminder to be clear, concise, correct, and professional.
We are all shovelling hard at the coal face, and we don't need a tragedy caused by sloppy personal discipline.
Now, down to the cellar!!
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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, in that order. However, where ATC have applied separation, there is a definite need under all three headings to communicate details of that separation to the next controller.
Often, that separation is applied just prior to transfer in order to ensure that the presentation of traffic to the next sector is correct, so electronic transfer would not be fast enough anyway.
We should be sufficiently aware of this to give priority to this important task. Too many of us miss the basics of good RTF - and this leads to incidents and accidents. Read the transcripts of the Tenerife tragedy, for example, to see the effect of dubious communication.
Many very senior pilots, training staff included, don't know or don't bother with the elementary stuff, such as reading back instructions which require a mandatory read-back.
Let's all take the original post as a reminder to be clear, concise, correct, and professional.
We are all shovelling hard at the coal face, and we don't need a tragedy caused by sloppy personal discipline.
Now, down to the cellar!!
------------------
'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
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Avman's first reply hit it on the head. Every pilot should include a pilgrimage to arrival/departure control or class 1 twr to their list of things to do.
fedup, to suggest that we DO as we're told is to "imply" that we DON'T . Some of what you're hearing is simply defensive. You folks do a bang-up job though.
My beef with ATC is keeping me under control in the terminal environment long after I've reported the field and my traffic in sight. I've had them vector me to a high tight base, AND then clear me for the visual. Now it's a**holes and elbows trying to make it work. Just my one gripe.
fedup, to suggest that we DO as we're told is to "imply" that we DON'T . Some of what you're hearing is simply defensive. You folks do a bang-up job though.
My beef with ATC is keeping me under control in the terminal environment long after I've reported the field and my traffic in sight. I've had them vector me to a high tight base, AND then clear me for the visual. Now it's a**holes and elbows trying to make it work. Just my one gripe.
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FedUp,
Glad to hear you need the "readback". We always speculated that the London ATC guys were paid by the vector. "....heading 295, now heading 300.", or if you were just trying to see if the Americans could follow instructions at 2am EDT.
Glad to hear you need the "readback". We always speculated that the London ATC guys were paid by the vector. "....heading 295, now heading 300.", or if you were just trying to see if the Americans could follow instructions at 2am EDT.
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I hate it when controllers give me a five part clearance in one breath speaking at the speed of heat and then get the beak when you ask for it to be repeated. On top of that, in the US at least, controllers are not responsible for verifying your readback as correct. If the ATC system is so saturated that it's come down to that kind of abuse on pilots and controllers, then the airspace is too damn saturated. I know I'm preaching to the choir.
Really can't see what the fuss is all about! London Airways' vectors are always for expedient reasons, "Turn left 10 deg, report new heading to London on 123.455" is hardly terribly difficult. And my - some poor lamb finds changing frequency 3 times in 10 000 ft challenging? What a good job there are 2 of you and an autopilot to cope with that enormous workoad!
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Half of the vectors in my sectors are due to the inadequate amount of controlled airspace available to us. Try ramming seven or eight 777's, 747's and A340's through a 18 mile wide corridor at the same time at the same level providing 5 miles separation between each. It don't go!
And why do we do it? Because military agancies have an 80 mile swathe of airspace to the north, reserved for their single Tucano doing some stall recoveries. Mmmm.
We are expected to shift 5 to 10% more traffic each year with less controllers and a finite amount of airspace. Maybe our airspace policies need rethinking.
And why do we do it? Because military agancies have an 80 mile swathe of airspace to the north, reserved for their single Tucano doing some stall recoveries. Mmmm.
We are expected to shift 5 to 10% more traffic each year with less controllers and a finite amount of airspace. Maybe our airspace policies need rethinking.
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Good point. There's an awful lot of open FIR out there. Would it really ruin anyone's day if say everything above FL100 was turned into class A or B?
The mil. can still play at war in places, but why do we insist on trying to cram about 5000 movements a day into narrow corridors when there's so much space out there never really used by anyone except the mil. who are receiving a service from their own guys anyway!
Just where do the priorities lie?
The mil. can still play at war in places, but why do we insist on trying to cram about 5000 movements a day into narrow corridors when there's so much space out there never really used by anyone except the mil. who are receiving a service from their own guys anyway!
Just where do the priorities lie?
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Bit late for a reply now, but it's a shame that early on in this topic there appeared to be an antagonistic attitude towards "fedup" for the fairly reasonable prod made by him to driving community. Just a reminder to adhere to this simple instruction was not I believe amiss. Listening to a fairly busy sector a couple of days ago at a half northern ATCC , on 3 consecutive first contact calls, the poor ATCO had to ask the familiar question "are you on a radar heading" - to which the reply was "affirm it's .....". The headings were all assingned to assure continuous climb & help pilots do thier job to the best of thier abilities. I feel that had the poor chap known that he would have had to suffer the subsequent extra R/T (resulting in several crossed calls as others tried to get in too !) he would have just asked the previous sector to apply standard routes & vertical separation & therefore less happy pilots.
And just one other thought - sometimes we ATCO's do make mistakes & leave you on a heading unnecessarily on transfer. If you don't tell us on first contact, It could be some time on perhaps a less expeditious routing before we notice & ask
But as others have said - none of the whole "team" is above realising where we can refine our technique.....
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: fragul ]
And just one other thought - sometimes we ATCO's do make mistakes & leave you on a heading unnecessarily on transfer. If you don't tell us on first contact, It could be some time on perhaps a less expeditious routing before we notice & ask
But as others have said - none of the whole "team" is above realising where we can refine our technique.....
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: fragul ]
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WOW some of these replies are kindda funny considering multi crew, FMS, 3 Axis full coupled autopilots...
i'm single pilot IFR in the good 'ol Shed (no FMS, no AP) and when ATC hands me over with a "report your heading to ...." i'll just do that ..
i mean how multi tasking capable do you have to be ?
Cheers
MB
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Meatbomber ]
i'm single pilot IFR in the good 'ol Shed (no FMS, no AP) and when ATC hands me over with a "report your heading to ...." i'll just do that ..
i mean how multi tasking capable do you have to be ?
Cheers
MB
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Meatbomber ]
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Of course when the "foreign" guys show up at ORD and are issued the rapid fire instructions that are followed by a keyed mike and a misreadback.....I begin to not feel so bad about asking twice in Euro airspace.
I do have a pet peeve when departing it helps to have the legs page showing on the FMS so as to pick out the waypoints that may be issued as a "direct to" clearance. It amazes me as so many of our pilots have not a clue as to where the controller was referring to. Sure the annunciation is not US english but if you have the legs page showing you can usually decipher where he is referring to. So to all you LATCC guys please accept my apologies for the "say that fix again" questions. Often it is just laziness on the part of the guys flying.
I do have a pet peeve when departing it helps to have the legs page showing on the FMS so as to pick out the waypoints that may be issued as a "direct to" clearance. It amazes me as so many of our pilots have not a clue as to where the controller was referring to. Sure the annunciation is not US english but if you have the legs page showing you can usually decipher where he is referring to. So to all you LATCC guys please accept my apologies for the "say that fix again" questions. Often it is just laziness on the part of the guys flying.
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OK I admit it.
I forgot to pass on my cleared heading to director after leaving the hold at LHR. The way he replied suggested that it pissed him off royally! I do normally read back though... honest!
Oh, and thanks to all the guys who helped out with the pan call today.
I forgot to pass on my cleared heading to director after leaving the hold at LHR. The way he replied suggested that it pissed him off royally! I do normally read back though... honest!
Oh, and thanks to all the guys who helped out with the pan call today.
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What's_it_doing_now..........first off, I LOVE the nick !!!!!! 
Secondly.......and this HAS been said before...........passing your heading is part of the separation criteria we use "downstairs".......so please try NOT to forget (but well done for admitting it !)
Secondly.......and this HAS been said before...........passing your heading is part of the separation criteria we use "downstairs".......so please try NOT to forget (but well done for admitting it !)
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I've read all this thread and i'm bored.
Can people really be bothered to argue about whether they should/or should not, readback
ATC stuff? errr. 'we should, except when we forget' seems correct. employ humans, expect mistakes. employ machines expect casualties!
Can people really be bothered to argue about whether they should/or should not, readback
ATC stuff? errr. 'we should, except when we forget' seems correct. employ humans, expect mistakes. employ machines expect casualties!
