Aer Lingus Redundancies
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Aer Lingus Redundancies
Aer Lingus will sack 10 pilots tomorrow with another 10 every two weeks until 86 are gone. This is despite not complying with the IALPA agreements on job and work security, seniority, leave etc. No other section of the company is facing compulsory redundancies and only the pilots have been denied the 4 weeks salary/year of service redundancy package.
The new CEO is trying to break the union and must be stopped because if these jobs go so will working conditions, already poor salaries and ultimately safety.
The new CEO is trying to break the union and must be stopped because if these jobs go so will working conditions, already poor salaries and ultimately safety.
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The new CEO is trying to break the union and must be stopped because if these jobs go so will working conditions, already poor salaries and ultimately safety.
Remember that the new CEO used to be a pilot.Talk about looking oout for your own.
Lets just hope that doesn't happen to me when I get that hot seat. LOL
Remember that the new CEO used to be a pilot.Talk about looking oout for your own.
Lets just hope that doesn't happen to me when I get that hot seat. LOL
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I suppose the management could do nothing and let Aer Lingus go the way of Sabena etc in which case even more pilots would be out of work.
It's not going to be pretty, but if Aer Lingus is going to survive then it must cut costs. If it doesn't succeed in cutting costs then I would suggest you start looking for a new employer. I would imagine Ryan Air will be hiring if Aer Lingus goes belly up!!
It's not going to be pretty, but if Aer Lingus is going to survive then it must cut costs. If it doesn't succeed in cutting costs then I would suggest you start looking for a new employer. I would imagine Ryan Air will be hiring if Aer Lingus goes belly up!!
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It seems that when pilots get their ATPL - they are handed a pair of narrow focus glasses and a shotgun. Whenever their industry faces tough times, they put on their specs and aim the shotgun at their own feet. Just before they pull the trigger they shout " More jobs, higher pay- better conditions".
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From to-day's Irish Indepedent.
..
Aer Lingus strike warning as 78 pilots face the chop
AER Lingus will today tell 78 pilots they are being sacked to make up the 156-pilot job cuts it needs.
If the pilots resist the euro51m rescue plan, the state airline may collapse.
Airline chief executive Willie Walsh, a former pilot, has said 60 co-pilots and 18 others of pilot grade must go - and compulsory redundancy notices will be served on some of them today.
Last night, however, pilot's union secretary Michael Landers warned that a strike ballot will begin next week if any IMPACT members are sacked. Rather than selecting 78 pilots, similar savings could be achieved by offering enhanced early retirement to 20 senior captains, he said.
He added: "Pilots have been singled out for this and refused the same terms as other airline staff. We will be recommending a vote for industrial action next week."
Airline spokesman Dan Loughrey said: "We failed to make any progress on reductions in pilot numbers, essential to the survival plan. Therefore, we will have to issue compulsory redundancy notices."
The pilots, members of the IMPACT union, are being selected on a last-in, first-out basis. They were told at a two-hour meeting yesterday the company must cut its 540 pilots by 156, and that it remains 78 jobs short of that target.
Part of their agreement allows for some involuntary redundancies. However, it is a tough measure for staff who six months ago were trying to secure a 60pc wage rise. Their agreed wage rise of about 20pc has been frozen as part of cuts.
Three months ago the airline unions agreed to participate in the plan to cut 2,056 jobs on the basis they would all be voluntary and no services would be outsourced.
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
..
Aer Lingus strike warning as 78 pilots face the chop
AER Lingus will today tell 78 pilots they are being sacked to make up the 156-pilot job cuts it needs.
If the pilots resist the euro51m rescue plan, the state airline may collapse.
Airline chief executive Willie Walsh, a former pilot, has said 60 co-pilots and 18 others of pilot grade must go - and compulsory redundancy notices will be served on some of them today.
Last night, however, pilot's union secretary Michael Landers warned that a strike ballot will begin next week if any IMPACT members are sacked. Rather than selecting 78 pilots, similar savings could be achieved by offering enhanced early retirement to 20 senior captains, he said.
He added: "Pilots have been singled out for this and refused the same terms as other airline staff. We will be recommending a vote for industrial action next week."
Airline spokesman Dan Loughrey said: "We failed to make any progress on reductions in pilot numbers, essential to the survival plan. Therefore, we will have to issue compulsory redundancy notices."
The pilots, members of the IMPACT union, are being selected on a last-in, first-out basis. They were told at a two-hour meeting yesterday the company must cut its 540 pilots by 156, and that it remains 78 jobs short of that target.
Part of their agreement allows for some involuntary redundancies. However, it is a tough measure for staff who six months ago were trying to secure a 60pc wage rise. Their agreed wage rise of about 20pc has been frozen as part of cuts.
Three months ago the airline unions agreed to participate in the plan to cut 2,056 jobs on the basis they would all be voluntary and no services would be outsourced.
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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Jetstar and Sir Kitt, back in your box, you dont know what you are talking about.
It is interesting how the negative comments appear, how do you answer the fact that by forgoeing their pay rise, by having an outstanding leave mountain (1700 weeks!) and by not having gone on strike the pilots have done more than any other group already. Less cost will be cut by sacking 78 from the bottom than by getting rid of the 20 skippers who want to go at the top. Be advised this is a union breaking excercise and not a business based cost saving measure. How do you answer the fact that longstanding agreements on how the pilots and airline do business are now being ignored. What is happening here is (if you are pilots) going to have a knock on effect on your jobs as a national carriers treatment of pilots filters throught he business...
It is interesting how the negative comments appear, how do you answer the fact that by forgoeing their pay rise, by having an outstanding leave mountain (1700 weeks!) and by not having gone on strike the pilots have done more than any other group already. Less cost will be cut by sacking 78 from the bottom than by getting rid of the 20 skippers who want to go at the top. Be advised this is a union breaking excercise and not a business based cost saving measure. How do you answer the fact that longstanding agreements on how the pilots and airline do business are now being ignored. What is happening here is (if you are pilots) going to have a knock on effect on your jobs as a national carriers treatment of pilots filters throught he business...
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Oh, and for the record what idiot compares a profitable (pre sep 11th) carrier with 800 million in the bank with debt riddled Sabena or Swissair. Oh I see, he's a yank...
(a deliberatley included equally stupid comment)
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Spearing Britney ]</p>
(a deliberatley included equally stupid comment)
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Spearing Britney ]</p>
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Britney,
"Less cost will be cut by sacking 78 from the bottom than by getting rid of the 20 skippers who want to go at the top"
I bet you hav'nt got the first idea what the "enhanced terms" for the top twenty would cost (my guess would be several million). If it was cheaper - they'd do it, no one hates unions more than they love money!
(And being so angry is bad for your health - take a deep breath followed by a cool Guinness...)
"Less cost will be cut by sacking 78 from the bottom than by getting rid of the 20 skippers who want to go at the top"
I bet you hav'nt got the first idea what the "enhanced terms" for the top twenty would cost (my guess would be several million). If it was cheaper - they'd do it, no one hates unions more than they love money!
(And being so angry is bad for your health - take a deep breath followed by a cool Guinness...)
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Mr. Breaker and jetstar1965 you aren't in full possession of the facts obviously. Since you aren't, why not get your facts right before jumping in with silly comments.
Some facts;
1. Aer Lingus offerred a redundancy to deal to all 6,000 staff in the airline...but barred pilots from the same deal. Instead they offerred pilots with 30 years service a maximum of £50,000, which is less than some of the office staff will receive in their redundancy cheque! Gross inequity.
2. Aer Lingus pilots have had a long standing leave of absence agreement with the company which has often helped them in the past to get rid of pilot resources, yet call on them for re-employment when required. The company has now unilaterally broken that agreement, changing the terms so that nobody would voluntarily want to take it in future.
3. The union has offerred Part Time Work or Job Sharing as options to the company. They won't even discuss it.
4. The company announced a requirement to lose 156 pilots from the books. 70 have already gone, mainly those in cadet courses but not on the payroll. The remaining 86 junior jobs would create a saving in monetary terms which is exactly equivalent to the savings generated by 20 senior pilots leaving. Hence the number Spearing Britney mentions. If the redundancy offer was open to them there would likely be well in excess of double that number prepared to go. But Aer Lingus refuses to accept this (see point 1.)
5. Management has continuously undercrewed the operation for the last number of years, leading to the inability of pilots to avail of vacation entitlements. As a result a 'Leave mountain' of 2,600 weeks has accumulated...that's equivalent to 65 man years. The figure actually rises again this year because they intend to under provision leave yet again. And still they want to make pilots redundant?
6. There is a SCOPE agreement with Aer Lingus. Which they are ignoring. The most serious abuse being their intention to place Futura aircraft in EIDW next summer to operate Aer Lingus flights. They also seem to be about to bring US pilots over to bolster numbers for the peak period.
7. In 2001, the pilots iun Aer Lingus were the only group in the airline who did not take part in strike actions. The rest of the company was closed down for three days by other unions.
8. Every group in the airline received pay rises as a result of strike actions. The pilots received nothing.
9. Pilots are on pay freeze. They will not receive the national wage award which ammounts to about 9% this year.
10. An independent arbiter was charged with benchmarking Aer Lingus pilots salaries. He had awarded the group around 20%. This will naturally not be paid, nor is it being sought from the company.
That means the pilots have already contributed almost 30% in savings since 9-11.
11. The pilot MEC has met with management over 40 times, making every attempt to find an agreed resolution. They have been stonewalled throughout.
12. Management has also presented the pilots with a massive package of working conditions demands. Everything that has been on their wish list for years is being sought...and then some.
Two months ago any reasonable guy in Aer Lingus would have said that the company needed some redundancies and work practice concessions to survive. But as time has passed doubts begin to form about their true motives, especially when there are issues of genuine inequity. It soons starts to feel like the pilot group is being scapegoated, or made into an example for the education of others within the company.
Eventually the inescapable conclusion dawns, that what is being asked is not the necessary and just demands required to save the company, but a guided missile which is meant to detonate right in the heart of the union. If they can scare enough of the members into abandoning the junior pilots to their unjust fate then they'll have succeeded in driving a wedge down the middle of the group, and the damage will be irreversible.
Thats why IALPA and the Aer Lingus pilot group must and I believe will do the right thing.
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>
Some facts;
1. Aer Lingus offerred a redundancy to deal to all 6,000 staff in the airline...but barred pilots from the same deal. Instead they offerred pilots with 30 years service a maximum of £50,000, which is less than some of the office staff will receive in their redundancy cheque! Gross inequity.
2. Aer Lingus pilots have had a long standing leave of absence agreement with the company which has often helped them in the past to get rid of pilot resources, yet call on them for re-employment when required. The company has now unilaterally broken that agreement, changing the terms so that nobody would voluntarily want to take it in future.
3. The union has offerred Part Time Work or Job Sharing as options to the company. They won't even discuss it.
4. The company announced a requirement to lose 156 pilots from the books. 70 have already gone, mainly those in cadet courses but not on the payroll. The remaining 86 junior jobs would create a saving in monetary terms which is exactly equivalent to the savings generated by 20 senior pilots leaving. Hence the number Spearing Britney mentions. If the redundancy offer was open to them there would likely be well in excess of double that number prepared to go. But Aer Lingus refuses to accept this (see point 1.)
5. Management has continuously undercrewed the operation for the last number of years, leading to the inability of pilots to avail of vacation entitlements. As a result a 'Leave mountain' of 2,600 weeks has accumulated...that's equivalent to 65 man years. The figure actually rises again this year because they intend to under provision leave yet again. And still they want to make pilots redundant?
6. There is a SCOPE agreement with Aer Lingus. Which they are ignoring. The most serious abuse being their intention to place Futura aircraft in EIDW next summer to operate Aer Lingus flights. They also seem to be about to bring US pilots over to bolster numbers for the peak period.
7. In 2001, the pilots iun Aer Lingus were the only group in the airline who did not take part in strike actions. The rest of the company was closed down for three days by other unions.
8. Every group in the airline received pay rises as a result of strike actions. The pilots received nothing.
9. Pilots are on pay freeze. They will not receive the national wage award which ammounts to about 9% this year.
10. An independent arbiter was charged with benchmarking Aer Lingus pilots salaries. He had awarded the group around 20%. This will naturally not be paid, nor is it being sought from the company.
That means the pilots have already contributed almost 30% in savings since 9-11.
11. The pilot MEC has met with management over 40 times, making every attempt to find an agreed resolution. They have been stonewalled throughout.
12. Management has also presented the pilots with a massive package of working conditions demands. Everything that has been on their wish list for years is being sought...and then some.
Two months ago any reasonable guy in Aer Lingus would have said that the company needed some redundancies and work practice concessions to survive. But as time has passed doubts begin to form about their true motives, especially when there are issues of genuine inequity. It soons starts to feel like the pilot group is being scapegoated, or made into an example for the education of others within the company.
Eventually the inescapable conclusion dawns, that what is being asked is not the necessary and just demands required to save the company, but a guided missile which is meant to detonate right in the heart of the union. If they can scare enough of the members into abandoning the junior pilots to their unjust fate then they'll have succeeded in driving a wedge down the middle of the group, and the damage will be irreversible.
Thats why IALPA and the Aer Lingus pilot group must and I believe will do the right thing.
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>
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Reality check here for, I dunno and Britney. You have of course left out some of the best bits. The senior pilots wanted the same deal as the other staff, not surprisingly. What's 4 weeks pay per year when you earn €120,000 a year, Oh yes a nice sum indeed!
EI is not under crewed. it's over crewed, certainly compared to the deadly rivals with the blue tails across the way. Hence the need to cut more than 20 grey hairs who are ready for the golf course anyway. If Aer Lingus pilots worked the same hours as Ryanair pilots, (as surely some of them will soon,because that's where you will be going), this would not be a problem.
Go on strike by all means, that will sink Aer Lingus. That's what they want you to do. A pilot's strike cold precipitate the final collapsse of EI to be rapidly followed by a bold new Aer Lingus (2002), with wholly different conditions. Don't count on the CX being sympathetic to pilots, he's a very ex pilot.
That's the reality. we are into the endgame here, don't be manipulated into playing Russian Roulette with an automatic!
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]</p>
EI is not under crewed. it's over crewed, certainly compared to the deadly rivals with the blue tails across the way. Hence the need to cut more than 20 grey hairs who are ready for the golf course anyway. If Aer Lingus pilots worked the same hours as Ryanair pilots, (as surely some of them will soon,because that's where you will be going), this would not be a problem.
Go on strike by all means, that will sink Aer Lingus. That's what they want you to do. A pilot's strike cold precipitate the final collapsse of EI to be rapidly followed by a bold new Aer Lingus (2002), with wholly different conditions. Don't count on the CX being sympathetic to pilots, he's a very ex pilot.
That's the reality. we are into the endgame here, don't be manipulated into playing Russian Roulette with an automatic!
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]</p>
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First Spearing Britney I don't appreciate your Yank comment. You may disagree with me and I with you, but you don't need to start calling people names based on their nationality.
I guess it all depends who's facts you believe. Obviously the pilots have a far different view of the facts than does management. From what I've read Aer Lingus is in serious trouble and it must cut costs to remain viable.
The facts are that if Aer Lingus doesn't make these cuts then it will go the way of Sabena and Swisair. If you want to ignore this that's fine. I'm sure MOL is praying that Aer Lingus pilots vote to go on strike as it will push more customers his way while adding what maybe the final nail to the Aer Lingus coffin.
Good luck you'll need it.
I guess it all depends who's facts you believe. Obviously the pilots have a far different view of the facts than does management. From what I've read Aer Lingus is in serious trouble and it must cut costs to remain viable.
The facts are that if Aer Lingus doesn't make these cuts then it will go the way of Sabena and Swisair. If you want to ignore this that's fine. I'm sure MOL is praying that Aer Lingus pilots vote to go on strike as it will push more customers his way while adding what maybe the final nail to the Aer Lingus coffin.
Good luck you'll need it.
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Reality check #2. Idunno ,good posting but in the end the case you outline will mean very little.
The Public will not be interested in the fine points of your case. All they will see is an airline struggling to survive . They will have seen the 1500 voluntary severence deal by the "lower" ranks in the airline in a positive light and will not ustand why the "higher paid ranks" would threaten the rescue package with strike action.rightly or wrongly they will see it simply as greed.
To mount a successful industrial action you must have either the Media or Public opinion or preferably both on your side.In the case of Aer Lingus pilots you will have neither.You will be crucified in the media if you take strike action.
By all means keep grinding out the best deal you can but don't bet on Management giving in . You are dealing with a new phenomenon for Aer Lingus, a Chairman who has no political baggage,and has only one objective in mind , to make the airline viable . Nothing I believe will get in the way of that.
The Public will not be interested in the fine points of your case. All they will see is an airline struggling to survive . They will have seen the 1500 voluntary severence deal by the "lower" ranks in the airline in a positive light and will not ustand why the "higher paid ranks" would threaten the rescue package with strike action.rightly or wrongly they will see it simply as greed.
To mount a successful industrial action you must have either the Media or Public opinion or preferably both on your side.In the case of Aer Lingus pilots you will have neither.You will be crucified in the media if you take strike action.
By all means keep grinding out the best deal you can but don't bet on Management giving in . You are dealing with a new phenomenon for Aer Lingus, a Chairman who has no political baggage,and has only one objective in mind , to make the airline viable . Nothing I believe will get in the way of that.
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Jetstar my friend you are I'm afraid missing the point again. The 'deliberately included equally stupid' yank comment was to indicate just how daft it is to comapre EI and sabena/swissair.
EI senior pilot earn 120k EURO, alot less than 120k £ by the way.
Aer Lingus customers (the execs, the money makers) will not go to Ryanair, they will go to BM or BA (if they arrive) but never to Ryanair. Aer Lingus II is doubtful, where would the funding appear from? In an election year and with all that frieght to keep export economy going all possible must be done to ensure Aer Lingus I Survival. That is what WW is relying upon. Sacking pilots he has invested in will stunt possible future growth and is financially stupid. As expert external advisors have already said.
Steepclimb, its 4 weeks pay per year of service we want (capped at 2 years) or about 188K irish£ for our senior captains. Please get the basics right if a meaningful discussion is to be had.
Sgt Culpepper, I fear you may be right with one notable exception, WW doesnt worry about viable - he worries about saleable. He wants a fast buck. Viable may or may not come too...
Todays latest, he is offering pay in return for redundancies...
How does that tally with a company in supposed immediate cash crisis??
EI senior pilot earn 120k EURO, alot less than 120k £ by the way.
Aer Lingus customers (the execs, the money makers) will not go to Ryanair, they will go to BM or BA (if they arrive) but never to Ryanair. Aer Lingus II is doubtful, where would the funding appear from? In an election year and with all that frieght to keep export economy going all possible must be done to ensure Aer Lingus I Survival. That is what WW is relying upon. Sacking pilots he has invested in will stunt possible future growth and is financially stupid. As expert external advisors have already said.
Steepclimb, its 4 weeks pay per year of service we want (capped at 2 years) or about 188K irish£ for our senior captains. Please get the basics right if a meaningful discussion is to be had.
Sgt Culpepper, I fear you may be right with one notable exception, WW doesnt worry about viable - he worries about saleable. He wants a fast buck. Viable may or may not come too...
Todays latest, he is offering pay in return for redundancies...
How does that tally with a company in supposed immediate cash crisis??
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Aer Lingus was and still is, albeit to a lesser degree, nothing more than an employment agency for Ireland. A model of nepotism. A hangout for the brown shoe brigade of ex Irish Aer Corps (a 172, Fuga Mag. and a GIV).
Unable to compete on the transAtlantic with the likes of Delta, Continental and any other carrier trying to bring tourists to the Emerald Isle, Aer Fungus is going down the same sink hole as Sabena. Both overstaffed and overcompensated.
It was not too long ago that the aviators at the Shamrock were demanding the same pay as their "brothers" in AA because this Yankie carrier was part of the Aer Lingus Alliance! Such logic. Regardless of the size of AA in comparrison to the Shamrock, the brown shoe boys felt that they were worth te same because they carried American Airlines passengers!!!! Such logic. Now they threaten to strike because the airline is cutting staff along with EVERY OTHER AIRLINE in the world. I suppose the brown shoe brigade or the railway labor leaders running the union at Aer Lingus think that they are going to win public support on this one!!! HAHAHA
If I were the pilots (the select pilots) at Aer Lingus I would choose my battles very carefully. But then again I am not an Aer lingus aviator nor do I have an Aer Corps pension.... <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Unable to compete on the transAtlantic with the likes of Delta, Continental and any other carrier trying to bring tourists to the Emerald Isle, Aer Fungus is going down the same sink hole as Sabena. Both overstaffed and overcompensated.
It was not too long ago that the aviators at the Shamrock were demanding the same pay as their "brothers" in AA because this Yankie carrier was part of the Aer Lingus Alliance! Such logic. Regardless of the size of AA in comparrison to the Shamrock, the brown shoe boys felt that they were worth te same because they carried American Airlines passengers!!!! Such logic. Now they threaten to strike because the airline is cutting staff along with EVERY OTHER AIRLINE in the world. I suppose the brown shoe brigade or the railway labor leaders running the union at Aer Lingus think that they are going to win public support on this one!!! HAHAHA
If I were the pilots (the select pilots) at Aer Lingus I would choose my battles very carefully. But then again I am not an Aer lingus aviator nor do I have an Aer Corps pension.... <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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Yes, Yes, Britney 4 years pay was an obvious typo, blah de blah, now corrected and clarified.
It doesn't dilute the essential point, in future there will be fewer aircraft, thus fewer pilots will be needed. Losing 20 senior Captains may work financially. But what is needed, as you well know is a complete restructuring of the airline so that it can survive. That means pilots have to take a hit too, not just the lower orders. You know there was an attempt by the pilots to swing a deal better than was offered to other staff.
I have genuine sympathy with the pilots. I'm a pilot myself. I felt really sorry for those cadets interviewed on the news who were seeing the dream slip away. A dose of the real world early in their lives. But that's the way it works. Mike O'Leary is waiting in the wings with Ireland's new national flag carrier, Ryanair. Don't let his dream come true! Your comment that Aer Lingus customers won't go to Ryanair is off beam, they've already gone. Nobody I know nowdays even considers EI for a flight. It's Ryanair first. Sure there's always the business customers. But Ryanair make a lot of money flying everyone else around.
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]</p>
It doesn't dilute the essential point, in future there will be fewer aircraft, thus fewer pilots will be needed. Losing 20 senior Captains may work financially. But what is needed, as you well know is a complete restructuring of the airline so that it can survive. That means pilots have to take a hit too, not just the lower orders. You know there was an attempt by the pilots to swing a deal better than was offered to other staff.
I have genuine sympathy with the pilots. I'm a pilot myself. I felt really sorry for those cadets interviewed on the news who were seeing the dream slip away. A dose of the real world early in their lives. But that's the way it works. Mike O'Leary is waiting in the wings with Ireland's new national flag carrier, Ryanair. Don't let his dream come true! Your comment that Aer Lingus customers won't go to Ryanair is off beam, they've already gone. Nobody I know nowdays even considers EI for a flight. It's Ryanair first. Sure there's always the business customers. But Ryanair make a lot of money flying everyone else around.
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]</p>
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Actually Sgt.Culpepper, after seeing some of the youngsters being interviewed on TV news last night regarding their sacking, I don't have any worries about the press or public. They did an excellent job of putting the human face on just another redundancy story. I've been called by neighbours today to say what they heard and saw has swung them behind the pilots. Thats never happened before for all the reasons you mentioned...basic begrudgery being one of the factors in the past. But this situation is so simply and grossly unfair it's changing peoples views. Remember (in case I didn't make it clear before) the pilot group are the only group suffering mandatory redundancies. Every other employee who is leaving is doing so voluntarily. With a golden handshake to boot.
No, for once we actually seem to hold the moral high ground! What a feeling.
As to the comments about 'Brown Booters' by U3K. For those of you unfamiliar with the term, that's a reference to Irish Air Corps pilots.
What IAC pilots have to do with this issue is probably obscure to every mind except that of UK3. I won't even attempt to fathom it.
By the way Steepclimb. The pilots are not looking for 'better deal' than anyone else...they are looking for the same deal as everyone else.
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>
No, for once we actually seem to hold the moral high ground! What a feeling.
As to the comments about 'Brown Booters' by U3K. For those of you unfamiliar with the term, that's a reference to Irish Air Corps pilots.
What IAC pilots have to do with this issue is probably obscure to every mind except that of UK3. I won't even attempt to fathom it.
By the way Steepclimb. The pilots are not looking for 'better deal' than anyone else...they are looking for the same deal as everyone else.
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>