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Aer Lingus Redundancies

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Aer Lingus Redundancies

Old 18th Jan 2002, 16:00
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Well I got my redundancy notice in from Aer Lingus this morning.

Somebody said above that we are overcrewed. Well I regularly work 6 days in a row as do many of my collegues and I would venture to suggest that the crewing numbers were scribbled down on the back of a fag packet by a lazy management pilot.

They have decided to get rid of the cheapest pilots in the company (if not the Western world!) rather than offer all pilots the same terms as every other worker in the company. This is quite apart from the fact that some managers are getting gratuities of 200,000 euros when they leave for a job well done (sarcasm alert).

The cost of the investment already made in our training (78 pilots and the 44 cadets already let go) runs somewhere in the region of 20m Euros. Doesn't exactly make commercial sense to let 78 pilots from the bottom go to save the company a mere 2.6m. Moreover the pilot group has already saved the company 6m by not accepting the pay award that we were due.

The redundancy letter referes to the SCOPE agreement (how nice of them to acknoledge it exists). Quite apart from the discrimination isssues mentioned above in other posts, the SCOPE agreement like all other agreements has been interpreted out of existence.

The section on redundancy may be of interest,

C. Redundancy

No pilot on the seniority list will suffer involuntary redundancy or involuntary lay off prior
to the following:

1. Consultation, with a view to seeking agreement, with the Association.

2. The termination of all wet leasing

3. The voluntary or involuntary redundancy of all other pilots employed or contracted
by the Company, except as per part D, section 1.

4. The termination of all code share operations in the Company’s entire operation into
and out of the Republic of Ireland.

With the above conditions satisfied, the Company will select pilots from the seniority list for
involuntary redundancy and it will be on a ‘last in first out’ basis. Date of entry onto the
Seniority list will be the criteria used in the selection.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The company has conveniently ignored ALL four conditions and has gone straight for LIFO redundancy selection.

There will be a motion to ballot for industrial action next Wednesday.

The pilots are in no way responsible for the predicament which we find ourselves in, be under no illusion of that.
Hopefully the company will come to its senses
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Old 18th Jan 2002, 16:29
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Spearing Brittany, I was actually referring to AL Chairman Mulcahy,rather than CEO WW.Be in no doubt it's the Chairman who is making the running, and is doing it quietly ,his way. You would be hard pressed to find a single public comment from him since his appointment.Seems to epitomise the old maxim "speak softly but carry a big stick".
Idunno, I wouldn't be lulled by a few soft TV pilot stories, the gloves are'nt off yet . The serious hitters have not come out to play yet.Picture the scenario .Pilots on picket duty while 1500 or so unfortunates are arranging farewell gigs,....not a pretty sight.
The moral ground is a lonely place and residency there is usually short lived.Best of luck but think this one out fully before embarking on any course of action.BTW am I right in thinking that the reason the deal has become mandatory is because not enough pilots applied for the voluntary package, and that the same would have happened to the rest of the staff had they not come up with the voluntary numbers.
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Old 18th Jan 2002, 19:45
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Would those pilots who got laid off and are going to be laid off in the near future have problems finding pilots jobs elsewhere ? I think not but what do you think? I heard one of them on the news a few days ago saying he was "signing on the dole" in the near future! A bit drastic dont you think..?
What about experienced Airbus captains - would they have problmes finding work abroad ?
Cheers.
 
Old 18th Jan 2002, 23:50
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Hi all
Repoman,commiserations on getting the PFO letter.It's not a nice feeling but I would contend that your training and experience will get you work before too long.As for the remarks that the other sections of the company are getting a better deal than the pilots,not so.A lot of people are leaving with far less than they would have got in more normal times."Golden handshake" is not in it.As a result of the redundancies,a lot of departments will be left very understaffed and this will affect future efficiency.We in the rest of the company have also had pay freezes,overtime bans,extra work conditions imposed on us and a lot more besides,all in the name of saving EI from disaster.We also have difficulty in believing that 540 pilots for 30-odd aircraft is an acceptable ratio.On the ground,morale is very,very low,something the pilot fraternity is only now facing up to.
Best of luck
TDD
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Old 19th Jan 2002, 00:00
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Unhappy

[quote] BTW am I right in thinking that the reason the deal has become mandatory is because not enough pilots applied for the voluntary package, and that the same would have happened to the rest of the staff had they not come up with the voluntary numbers. <hr></blockquote>

Yes you are right. And why do you think that is? We would have come up with the "voluntary numbers" if we were afforded the same package as the rest of the staff.


TG910:

Not drastic at all, most of us only have 100hrs on type, not exactly easy to get work with that kind of inexperience. Btw the chap you heard has been in the company for 10 years and is to be let go. As for airbus captains, well just look at this weeks FI and emirates' advert. Not exactly looking for 100hr S/O's !. Anyway that's hardly the issue here. Discrimination, broken agreements and general scapegoating of the pilot body while management award themselves generous gratuities for a job well done is more the issue.

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: repoman ]</p>
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Old 19th Jan 2002, 01:22
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This is the last comment I'm going to make on this public forum on this matter because the union MEC has asked members to refrain from further public comment (take note SB and Repoman).

The problems at Aer Lingus are not new.
Hey, you probably noticed that already, being perceptive and intelligent folks.

There have been at least two previous 'crises' in Aer Lingus during the last twenty years.
The intervening periods have usually been marked by extended episodes of 'belt tightening' followed by sudden, short lived, and poorly managed booms.

Those booms created profitable periods, which were succesively frittered away by a short sighted 'career civil servant' management who have always been out of their depth in the real world. And always at the beck and call of their politically appointed sugar daddies on the board of directors.

When the inevitable downturn happens the pilots have traditionally been the first group to be asked for sacrifices, and have repeatedly given the lead to the rest of the employees (soon becoming despised by them for that).

Year upon year these sacrifices have been demanded in the very same terms being heard yet again today...'If you don't do this the company will close'...'It's up to you to save the company'....'We need you to make these concessions to ensure survival'.

And each time the pilots have fallen for the same old crap and bailed out our inept management yet one more time, only to see them flush the effort down the toilet as they build new empires of pen pushers and overpaid hangers on in their own shoddy and unaccountable departments.

This is an airline with 6,500 employees and just 32 aircraft! And only 500 pilots! That's TWELVE employees for every pilot in the company!
The tail is wagging the dog!

So this time the knives are out and being employed on the pilot body without so much as a 'by your leave'. And they expect us to smile and say 'thank you, take another pound of flesh for good measure'.

The aim is not just to once more ensure the preservation of the incompetents who've yet again brought us to this pass....but to wreck the pilots association as a cohesive unit forever.

They could get what they want from us by negotiation...like they've always done before (saps that we are)...but to allow the destruction of our last bulwark against utter exploitation..IALPA...is Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre and Unprecendented, and WILL NOT PASS.

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>
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Old 19th Jan 2002, 02:27
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Thumbs down

OK but more about the morass of mediocrity in Head office that has us in this predicament.

BMI has 89 managers and admin staff per aircraft....seems quite a lot until you see how many we have......anyone hazard a guess?...

100?
150?

Actually it's 219.

End of comment: Goodbye!
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Old 19th Jan 2002, 19:46
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Thumbs down

What about the top 50 or so lads that were offered the flynn package a few years back....whereby with a 24hr break in service they were all hired back as CONTRACT CAPT'S enjoying all the same benefits they had before minus the pension contributions.....in essence raping the pension fund to the detriment of all junior to them( these senior ex. brown booters, by the way never flew anything heavier than a chipmunk in the illustrious air corp.).....so I for one am deeply saddened by the redundancies here at ALT but over the years with fewer than 20 pilots showing up to union meetings, we only have ourselves to blame.....barney's willie was trained well by the man himself, laughable and charismatic they have slowly engineered the destruction of pay and working conditions and the near extinction of this once proud airline.....
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Old 19th Jan 2002, 20:28
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Well whatever way you see it, dont strike ...... remember sabena!
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Old 19th Jan 2002, 21:24
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Angry

I have no sympathy whatsoever with guys whinging that they are being made redundant with 'only' 100hrs on type.

Get a grip. You got 60,000 of free training followed by a free 20,000 type rating. You then get given some line flying, a salary and a redundancy package. Contrast that with the thousands out there who paid their own way through and sat on the dole just lik you will be. You don't see many of them whinging. They are over on Wannabes getting constructive and pro-active.

Its all very well 'wanting to be a pilot' as long as Aer Lingus are writing the cheques and setting you up with work down the road. Lets see how you cope now its you who has to fund your licences and the next job might be based 4,000 miles away. I bet half the cadets leave aviation rather than knuckle down to it.

Dom
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Old 20th Jan 2002, 00:26
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Enough already...

There have been some excellent posts from various contributors to this thread.

It is ALWAYS a nasty experience for anybody to lose their source of income and deepest commiserations to anybody in this position

Any contributors care to comment...


1)31 Aircraft 500+ pilots,on an industry average should there be more like 400 pilots?

2)How did it ever get to the stage where so much leave was owed to such a small group, allowing that the most junior people had probably not even joined yet?

3)While some are critical of past shortcomings of management,Isn't a good management move to pear down numbers which are a drain on resources?

4)If 80 of the most highly paid pilots were to leave voluntarily wouldn't this consume money that could be spent elsewhere?

5)A previous contributor mentioned that s/he had worked 6 consecutive days,Does everybody work this hard?


Good luck to everyone in the future...
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Old 20th Jan 2002, 02:31
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Fair point Idunno, incompetant management etc. I know it well, I've been around long enough.
But as for wanting the same deal as everyone else? I think I and others spelt out the reasons why pilots can't get the same deal as everybody else. 20 pilots on 120,000 pa equals 4.8 million, 40 is 9.6. Need I go on? It's unaffordable. That's the reality. Going on strike won't conjure up this money. No management good, bad or incompetant could take the gamble that would result in those kind of numbers being paid out.
Those of you who are being let go, there are two groups of people blameworthy in this, management and quite frankly your fellow but senior aviator colleagues who want to walk away with a quarter of a million big ones and are not prepared to compromise.
Do you really want to go on strike for them?

The significant word here is 'COMPROMISE' that's what's going to happen.

The junior pilots are a pawn in the game as ever. I remember the last big downturn in the early eighties, most of the cadets back then spent years , working as clerks or delivering brochures to Travel Agents. They are the senior pilots now, but seem to have short memories.

It's fair to say the rest of the airline will remain stuffed to the gills with excess baggage. I often wonder just exactly what half those people in the HOB are doing? More of those will definitely have to go.

Well if nothing else it will be interesting to watch from outside,(for a change).
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Old 20th Jan 2002, 03:49
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Another 500 pilots on the Euro market?
I don't think we need it.
There's already enough pressure on wages and jobs.

Still...you guys better think of a way to put a stop to the gallop of your new managers. They've definitely got it in for ya!

Kick 'em in the nuts.

G'luck.
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Old 20th Jan 2002, 06:24
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Angry

Alright, I'LL say it. ('cos no one else has!)
If the company is in the *****, sack the pilots, cabin crew and the other workers LAST!
Start by sacking as many of the 'management' as you can without affecting the operation.
Here is a 'mission statement'.
"Its Aer Lingus's business to fly people from A to B. It's the business of those who don't to support those who do"
QED
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Old 20th Jan 2002, 06:29
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Heyyyy...SteepClimb! You're a manager aintcha? I think he's talkin 'bout you!
Why doncha take that advice and blow yer brains out you dork.
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Old 20th Jan 2002, 20:57
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Arrow

10 pilot redundancies is not where it began. Aer Lingus already sacked 40 cadets that were on average 80% through their training in Oxford and Jerez.
156 pilots is the figure management initially stated as being their target. The axe is only beginning to fall. Agreements that protect pilot jobs are being ignored. To facilitate the vacuum created by sacked pilots working conditions are soon to be savaged. Management is looking to make all pilots working conditions equal to the worst of the low-cost carriers; for frozen Aer Lingus pay . And Aer Lingus pay is far below par (management apparently boasts at international seminars how low the pilot body is paid)

Those to be let go in the coming weeks all earn less than Irish punt 25k, and have less than 150 hours. They are the cheap. It is not an exaggeration to say that most will sign up for the dole. After 2 and a 1/2 years training and many leaving good careers, others foregoing university, and some recently married with mortgages, the dole is not something that was ever expected.

Never before has the pilot body been issued compulsory redundancies. Unpaid leave, temporary alternative employment, voluntary redundancy, early retirement have always been the avenues explored and utilised successfully in the past. Management has for some reason no intention of promoting or indeed in some cases even offering these deals. The offers that are on the table are an insult. Pilots have been offered a deal actively discouraging anyone to leave. Every other part of the workforce in AL has been offered equal terms; but not the pilots.

Would you put up with this?
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Old 21st Jan 2002, 00:59
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To be blunt: SHUT UP Maxalt.
I'm interested in Aer Lingus surviving, you on the other hand, given your employer, would rather it went away.
No I'm not management, with my attitude it would never work, strictly an agitator me!
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Old 21st Jan 2002, 04:49
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Awwww...Steepy...did I upset you? Poor baby.. .I seem to recall you having a go at moi just last week for merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the ALT mismanagement who can't seem to run a **** up in a brewery, yet produced an in-flight mag article about "success in business".

Ok, you're not a member of the mismanagement you say. So why'dya get so touchy then, huh? Huh???

Did you write the bleedin' article yerself or wha'? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
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Old 21st Jan 2002, 04:56
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IDUNNO. .for once you seem to be making some real comments rather than your usual snide comments about the US carriers......tough when the shoe is on the other foot now eh?????

Well i was at home when those poor wee cadets were interviewed.....do i feel sorry that they want to stay and get a few more hours to make themselves more marketable.....NO i don't.

They were taken on as cadets....had their training paid for them in Oxford or even in the US in Battlecreek....and then back for your type conversion and out onto the line.... .With ALT sacking them...they've no bond and are free to go looking for another job....the cadets that were cut from Oxford were well looked after by the likes of PARC etc....so i don't think these few poor 200hr on type pilots will have a problem getting employment elsewhere..... .It seems that IALPA were using them to gain the sympathy vote from JOE PUBLIC....

I have been cut from 2 different airlines in my career(1 going bust and the other redundancies) so i guess if these poor pilots have to go back to N.Ireland to flip burgers for a while well then tooooo bad.....it might bring them back down to reality.

IDUNNO ...i guess you are one of those smug ALT pilots and you will probably vote for Strike on Wed......well then let the company sink....yes you took pay cuts....but the company still isn't out of the woods....DAL furloughed 400 pilots and ALPA didn't call a strike....why....not because they are dumb yanks....but because they know that when the business gets better those 400 will be back in the ranks....but my fellow dumb paddys can only see to their next pay package and can't seem to work with the CX and make the company more viable....

My advice for what it's worth is.....STOP squabbling and scrounging for money take your cuts and try to make the company work and survive...if not then strike and let it go down the road of Sabena...there has to be some give and take....if it means taking another pay freeze and pay cut then do it....or else park your planes now........ .MOL is probably rubbing his hands with glee but he's a cowboy and really ALT needs to preserve the Shamrock...
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Old 21st Jan 2002, 06:03
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Max I'm only touchy when I'm being insulted by someone who doesn't care to voice a valid and mature opinion and who resorts to childish abuse. Other than that I'm a happy camper. . .Your memory is faulty too, wasn't me on that thread.

. .Anyway, back to the point, now that positions have been set, we can expect a bit of horsetrading between management and union, while the redundancy notices hang over the heads of the pilots with the lowest seniority. The cadets and others without contracts are gone anyway, so don't get your hopes up.

I don't believe there will be a strike, 'Averted at the last minute', I suspect will be the phrase used on the six o'clock news.
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