Where are DHL getting their pilots from?
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As I understand it, the 'salary' quoted above is a gross understatement of the proposed DHL skippers' gross payment. Why don't we see what happens when this operation gets under way. Frankly, I don't believe I have ever seen a new start up outfit get such a 'bucketing by the uninformed' as I have read on the pages of this esteemed website. And if the rumour as to the intended Chief Pilot is true, this operation will certainly become a cracker to work for in due course. Give it a chance, gentlemen.
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Sapco2 please quote the Airtours BASIC Captains salary for 2000 and 2001.
Year 2000 Air 2000 57896 GBP
Year 2001 Air 2000 60100 GBP
Year 2000 Monarch 58170 GBP
Year 2001 Monarch 60206 GBP
These salaries are from the BALPA web site.
The DHL Basic compares favourably with the above.
tilii. I could not agree with you more on the comments which you have posted here.
Facts Gentlemen NOT Fiction please.
Year 2000 Air 2000 57896 GBP
Year 2001 Air 2000 60100 GBP
Year 2000 Monarch 58170 GBP
Year 2001 Monarch 60206 GBP
These salaries are from the BALPA web site.
The DHL Basic compares favourably with the above.
tilii. I could not agree with you more on the comments which you have posted here.
Facts Gentlemen NOT Fiction please.
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I think that you will find that if they are looking for experienced captains then you won't find them on level 1 or 2 of companies salary scales! Figure it out... they want experienced captains so an experienced captain in one of those companies is on quite a bit more than the 60k figure being bandied about.
They may be able to find f/o material that is looking for an early command but they won't get many 'experienced' captains going for a wage drop. More than likely they will be reviewing the captains 'package' to attract more experience.
Also, if you are going to get your facts right then an Air 2000 captain with 5 years experience will be on a basic of £65,800 plus all the other extras including £2.30 per hour FDA/ABA and a company contribution of 15% to the pension, Private Health Insurance, Loss of Licence Insurance, Death in Service Benefits, Holiday Concessions. Besides the 60k DHL are offering what are the other pieces that make up the whole package?
[This message has been edited by Chutney (edited 07 July 2001).]
They may be able to find f/o material that is looking for an early command but they won't get many 'experienced' captains going for a wage drop. More than likely they will be reviewing the captains 'package' to attract more experience.
Also, if you are going to get your facts right then an Air 2000 captain with 5 years experience will be on a basic of £65,800 plus all the other extras including £2.30 per hour FDA/ABA and a company contribution of 15% to the pension, Private Health Insurance, Loss of Licence Insurance, Death in Service Benefits, Holiday Concessions. Besides the 60k DHL are offering what are the other pieces that make up the whole package?
[This message has been edited by Chutney (edited 07 July 2001).]
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tilii. How does a 4 sector night freight outfit become a cracker of a job just because the Chief Pilot is a good guy? Whilst you may only do 450 hours a year there are long duty periods which cancel that one out.If it suits you then go for it but other peoples comments are useful if only to get the deal improved!!
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thegypsy
The answer to your question is the same as would apply in any outfit where the Chief Pilot is a thoroughly switched on professional who is also a people person and a shaker and mover. As I knew him personally in the deep, dark, past, I feel able to confidently express my opinion that these are indeed the credentials, the characteristics, of the individual rumoured to be taking the CP job at DHL. And, for what it's worth, dear chap, a 4 sector night freight operation may not suit you but it certainly does many others (in any event, I understand it will not be a purely night freight operation in the long term). If that operation is also well-run, it may attract many more than you would imagine as it glows as a beacon of excellence among its lesser rivals (of which there are far too many in the UK). I wonder how many of us have actually realised that this operation, well handled, may in the future become the second biggest airline employer in the UK?
I have not applied to join DHL and I am very unlikely to, for I work for an employer who pleases me very much indeed. I will soon retire in any event. But were it otherwise, I would be in there to DHL like the proverbial rat up a drainpipe.
I simply cannot believe some of the mindless drivel that emanates from these pages at times, such as your own final remark about getting 'the deal improved'. This company has hardly even got up to run yet and already the likes of you would wish to see the deal improved? Good grief!
Now, how about less of the knocking, and instead giving our new starter chums our vigorous support rather than our cynical abuse? Or is that too much to expect, my friend?
[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]
The answer to your question is the same as would apply in any outfit where the Chief Pilot is a thoroughly switched on professional who is also a people person and a shaker and mover. As I knew him personally in the deep, dark, past, I feel able to confidently express my opinion that these are indeed the credentials, the characteristics, of the individual rumoured to be taking the CP job at DHL. And, for what it's worth, dear chap, a 4 sector night freight operation may not suit you but it certainly does many others (in any event, I understand it will not be a purely night freight operation in the long term). If that operation is also well-run, it may attract many more than you would imagine as it glows as a beacon of excellence among its lesser rivals (of which there are far too many in the UK). I wonder how many of us have actually realised that this operation, well handled, may in the future become the second biggest airline employer in the UK?
I have not applied to join DHL and I am very unlikely to, for I work for an employer who pleases me very much indeed. I will soon retire in any event. But were it otherwise, I would be in there to DHL like the proverbial rat up a drainpipe.
I simply cannot believe some of the mindless drivel that emanates from these pages at times, such as your own final remark about getting 'the deal improved'. This company has hardly even got up to run yet and already the likes of you would wish to see the deal improved? Good grief!
Now, how about less of the knocking, and instead giving our new starter chums our vigorous support rather than our cynical abuse? Or is that too much to expect, my friend?
[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]
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Just to clarify maters a little, from someone who has researched DHL, been thru the interview, sim ride and turned them down.
The problem is not with the Flight Ops Dept. It is quite simply that if you wish to recruit experienced captains you need to pay experienced captains salary. This does not mean you have to alter the basic package at all. What is required is a bit of lateral thinking.
If Capt Moore has a word with the men in red braces and can convince them to keep the package as it is, but award 7 years seniority to all captains (sorry F/Os) who join DHL in the first 18 months, say to Dec 2002, then I guarantee you will solve your recruitment problems overnight without compromising the package for subsequent joiners.
I would certainly change my mind and you could have me in 3 months.
Just a thought.
The problem is not with the Flight Ops Dept. It is quite simply that if you wish to recruit experienced captains you need to pay experienced captains salary. This does not mean you have to alter the basic package at all. What is required is a bit of lateral thinking.
If Capt Moore has a word with the men in red braces and can convince them to keep the package as it is, but award 7 years seniority to all captains (sorry F/Os) who join DHL in the first 18 months, say to Dec 2002, then I guarantee you will solve your recruitment problems overnight without compromising the package for subsequent joiners.
I would certainly change my mind and you could have me in 3 months.
Just a thought.
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VICCYTEN
My dear chap, it may not have occurred to you but, using a little of your suggested lateral thinking, it may be possible for you to imagine that DHL would not now wish you to 'change your mind'.
You see, there are those among us who, recognising that the DHL operation is a new start up, will actually be prepared to join it on precisely that basis and not demand from it recognition of your 7 years of seniority with a completely different employer (in your case, judging by your handle, with BA).
There are also among us some pretty bright lateral thinkers who can perceive some considerable advantage in being in on the ground floor of an operation that could conceivably buy bigger and better types and fly them across the many different ponds on this planet to their own personal and financial future advantage.
I seriously doubt that DHL would wish to see a change of heart in someone incapable of such progressive foresight, someone solely interested in their own short-term gain. And, were I an 'experienced' F/O, I would ask you to explain the reasoning behind your exclusion of them from your grubby demand for 7 years seniority status.
Just a thought, dear chap, just a thought.
My dear chap, it may not have occurred to you but, using a little of your suggested lateral thinking, it may be possible for you to imagine that DHL would not now wish you to 'change your mind'.
You see, there are those among us who, recognising that the DHL operation is a new start up, will actually be prepared to join it on precisely that basis and not demand from it recognition of your 7 years of seniority with a completely different employer (in your case, judging by your handle, with BA).
There are also among us some pretty bright lateral thinkers who can perceive some considerable advantage in being in on the ground floor of an operation that could conceivably buy bigger and better types and fly them across the many different ponds on this planet to their own personal and financial future advantage.
I seriously doubt that DHL would wish to see a change of heart in someone incapable of such progressive foresight, someone solely interested in their own short-term gain. And, were I an 'experienced' F/O, I would ask you to explain the reasoning behind your exclusion of them from your grubby demand for 7 years seniority status.
Just a thought, dear chap, just a thought.
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tilii, my dear chap, you might be thinking laterally but you're not terribly bright if you think BA operate from Nause Brighton 
Anyway, what is your vested interest in DHL, I'm smelling a rat here. All the guys are saying is give me parity if I'm to move from my present employer, what's wrong with that. I speak as a disinterested party who's happy with my present employer.
Anyway, what is your vested interest in DHL, I'm smelling a rat here. All the guys are saying is give me parity if I'm to move from my present employer, what's wrong with that. I speak as a disinterested party who's happy with my present employer.
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Oh dear, Flex, I suppose I must spell it out for you. No doubt Viccyten is an 'ex VC10 tanker driver operating from Brize Norton', but he is certainly not writing from a position of 7 years seniority as an RAF pilot is he? At least, he would not be asking DHL for RAF pay parity at the levels being mooted on this forum unless he flew for a very different Force than did I in my long ago past.
As most ex Brize types end up in their civilian counterpart squadron (BA), I think my assumption is well founded in any event. And I did say 'presumably', I think.
As to your question regarding 'vested interest' and 'rat smelling', if you smell a rat it is certainly the one hiding in a nearby fundamental orifice, dear chap. Again, I will spell it out for you. I am neither involved in the setting up of DHL's operation nor an aspiring employee of same. I am simply an interested onlooker with a view that new start operations should be encouraged without prejudice and that those who demand 'parity' in initial T & C on the basis of their 7 years seniority with their present employer are best to remain with that present employer who is, by definition not a new start up operation.
Like you, I am happy with my present employer. Would you please explain how you say you are "disinterested" when you choose to express your views as stated above. Surely you speak as an 'interested party', dear chap?
Oh dear, Flex, I suppose I must spell it out for you. No doubt Viccyten is an 'ex VC10 tanker driver operating from Brize Norton', but he is certainly not writing from a position of 7 years seniority as an RAF pilot is he? At least, he would not be asking DHL for RAF pay parity at the levels being mooted on this forum unless he flew for a very different Force than did I in my long ago past.
As most ex Brize types end up in their civilian counterpart squadron (BA), I think my assumption is well founded in any event. And I did say 'presumably', I think.
As to your question regarding 'vested interest' and 'rat smelling', if you smell a rat it is certainly the one hiding in a nearby fundamental orifice, dear chap. Again, I will spell it out for you. I am neither involved in the setting up of DHL's operation nor an aspiring employee of same. I am simply an interested onlooker with a view that new start operations should be encouraged without prejudice and that those who demand 'parity' in initial T & C on the basis of their 7 years seniority with their present employer are best to remain with that present employer who is, by definition not a new start up operation.
Like you, I am happy with my present employer. Would you please explain how you say you are "disinterested" when you choose to express your views as stated above. Surely you speak as an 'interested party', dear chap?
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Tili,
Yes, they do still want me - at least, that is what I was told when I declined their offer.
Also, having been involved in the start up of an airline in UK in the mid 80s, the 7 year seniority was awarded to get a decent level of experience attracted, and to compensate for the various teething problems that one expects at a start up.
If the offer were to be extended to all pilots I would be delighted, but market forces dictate a requirement for experienced captains. Sorry if that does not apply to your case, but I do think you could disagree with someone without making a personal attack.
Just a thought!
Yes, they do still want me - at least, that is what I was told when I declined their offer.
Also, having been involved in the start up of an airline in UK in the mid 80s, the 7 year seniority was awarded to get a decent level of experience attracted, and to compensate for the various teething problems that one expects at a start up.
If the offer were to be extended to all pilots I would be delighted, but market forces dictate a requirement for experienced captains. Sorry if that does not apply to your case, but I do think you could disagree with someone without making a personal attack.
Just a thought!
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I really must support tilii in his most recent response.
The people who are now joining DHL's new UK operation, are the ones with a vision of the future, and appear not to be bound by the "I am worth more" syndrome.
A positive attitude to this new company, and a willingness to make it work, is what is needed, this is true of all new operations.
Have you been made redundant, tried to keep your home and loved ones on unemployment benefit ?. Many of us have and I would not recommend the heartache it causes to all concerned.
A new company has a budget for their financial year, and a set time to reach profitability.
Recruiting overpaid "Prima Donna's" who's main concern is their own financial wellbeing. and not necessarily the sucess of the new carrier, does not give a sound financial basis for a new company to build upon.
To those of you who have seen the package and rejected the offer, that was your choice.
As an outsider with no axe to grind for either camp I feel that your own self exclusion will have given those who have accepted the job offer a far better chance of staying off the dole queue for many years to come.
Predictions for the charter industry are not good over the next few years, are some people so short sighted that they fail to see a new operation starting which will probably be considered one of the safest long term bets in our industry.
A short term drop in salary by 60% of the difference (The Tax Man gets the rest) will always prove a better move than a 100% drop to the dole queue.
"Too near retirement to worry about changing job's"
The people who are now joining DHL's new UK operation, are the ones with a vision of the future, and appear not to be bound by the "I am worth more" syndrome.
A positive attitude to this new company, and a willingness to make it work, is what is needed, this is true of all new operations.
Have you been made redundant, tried to keep your home and loved ones on unemployment benefit ?. Many of us have and I would not recommend the heartache it causes to all concerned.
A new company has a budget for their financial year, and a set time to reach profitability.
Recruiting overpaid "Prima Donna's" who's main concern is their own financial wellbeing. and not necessarily the sucess of the new carrier, does not give a sound financial basis for a new company to build upon.
To those of you who have seen the package and rejected the offer, that was your choice.
As an outsider with no axe to grind for either camp I feel that your own self exclusion will have given those who have accepted the job offer a far better chance of staying off the dole queue for many years to come.
Predictions for the charter industry are not good over the next few years, are some people so short sighted that they fail to see a new operation starting which will probably be considered one of the safest long term bets in our industry.
A short term drop in salary by 60% of the difference (The Tax Man gets the rest) will always prove a better move than a 100% drop to the dole queue.
"Too near retirement to worry about changing job's"
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Tilii Are you sure you are not a Day Dreamer??
DHL is not some poor new start up but a large highly profitable company. If they want experienced B757 Type Rated Pilots then they need to make the deal a lot more attractive than at present in order to attract the right people.
I see no chance of Charter Airlines all falling by the way because the vagaries of the British weather will see to that,
From where I am sitting this will never be a cracker of a job and I do not think anyone in DHL supposes it to be so either. Yes it is a job that is all.
You have my deepest sympathy if coming to the end of your career you can even remotely consider this to be a cracker of a job.
I hope your impending retirement is more fulfilling!!
DHL is not some poor new start up but a large highly profitable company. If they want experienced B757 Type Rated Pilots then they need to make the deal a lot more attractive than at present in order to attract the right people.
I see no chance of Charter Airlines all falling by the way because the vagaries of the British weather will see to that,
From where I am sitting this will never be a cracker of a job and I do not think anyone in DHL supposes it to be so either. Yes it is a job that is all.
You have my deepest sympathy if coming to the end of your career you can even remotely consider this to be a cracker of a job.
I hope your impending retirement is more fulfilling!!
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I think this is not an entirely new "start-up" but rather an extension to the current DHL ops. By posing as a start-up they indeed try to locate pilots who will take lower benefits for the feeling of having been there from the start. DHL is a huge company and it will not hurt them giving what they will offer from the start. If people accept less now they will never get it later. Just look to the other big outfits around. Lufthansa's pilots have even been on strike to get bach what they gave 10 years ago, with record profit years in between for the airline.
Now, I'm not saying that if you should join a new little airline being started at your local airport to provide a service that has yet to be established and advertised and has to find its customers, that then you should not give this company a break by flying for less the first years, but this is not a bach country airport startup!
Now, I'm not saying that if you should join a new little airline being started at your local airport to provide a service that has yet to be established and advertised and has to find its customers, that then you should not give this company a break by flying for less the first years, but this is not a bach country airport startup!
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tilli, I am more than happy to explain how I am disinterested.
Read my lips...."Disinterested" means impartial, not influenced by one's own advantage. (Oxford dictionary). If I did not find the subject interesting, as you suggest, then I would be "Uninterested". Similar words, but very different meanings. Still, plenty of time to study English during your forthcoming retirement. Toodle pip, time for tiffin.
Read my lips...."Disinterested" means impartial, not influenced by one's own advantage. (Oxford dictionary). If I did not find the subject interesting, as you suggest, then I would be "Uninterested". Similar words, but very different meanings. Still, plenty of time to study English during your forthcoming retirement. Toodle pip, time for tiffin.
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So going back to my original question - where ARE DHL getting their pilots from?
By my reckoning they will need approx 250-300 pilots over the next two years.
Please lets not go into a slanging match over the pluses and minuses of DHL and the salary they are offering - I personally don't feel it is enough for the type of lifestyle that you can expect but if certain people wish to work for them at this scale then that is their choice - though it wouldn't be mine.
WP
By my reckoning they will need approx 250-300 pilots over the next two years.
Please lets not go into a slanging match over the pluses and minuses of DHL and the salary they are offering - I personally don't feel it is enough for the type of lifestyle that you can expect but if certain people wish to work for them at this scale then that is their choice - though it wouldn't be mine.
WP
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23 aircraft @ 3.5 crews/aircraft = 70 captains + 70 F/Os + management pilots.
Those were the figures I was given recently.
Low ratio of crews/aircraft as the aircraft will only fly at night, for now at least.
Those were the figures I was given recently.
Low ratio of crews/aircraft as the aircraft will only fly at night, for now at least.
