No Expats in India beyond July 2010
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There must not be many places in the world where you don't find an Indian working, so for India to close the door on expats can only lead to resentment .
Simply put - Britain didn't invade india, it bought it (because india sold it). Most importantly we bought it because your leadership at the time would have sold it to Napoleon who would have in turn threatened Britain's interests.
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British rule in India cannot be compared to the US in Iraq!! Before British rule, India was split into warring Kingdoms ruled by Moghuls and Sultans that decided on life and death of the people that lived on their lands, not dissimilar to medieval Europe and Pre-revolution Russia, living in surfdom. For all it's faults the British rule did establish things like modern infrastructure, education, governance, administration, judiciary and healthcare. One famous local custom stopped by the British was the burning of widows on their dead husbands funeral pyre!
Sorry for going off thread but felt I had to say something in response. My grandfather would be turning in his grave if I didn't!
Sorry for going off thread but felt I had to say something in response. My grandfather would be turning in his grave if I didn't!
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Before British rule, India was split into warring Kingdoms ruled by Moghuls and Sultans that decided on life and death of the people that lived on their lands, not dissimilar to medieval Europe and Pre-revolution Russia, living in surfdom.
For all it's faults the British rule did establish things like modern infrastructure, education, governance, administration, judiciary and healthcare
To be fair, it takes two to tango. The Indians were also partly at fault for allowing themselves to be manipulated and therefore, the blame cannot be placed completley on the British. I guess the past is the past so there is no point crying over spilled milk. What goes around comes around..
Sorry for going off thread but felt I had to say something in response. My grandfather would be turning in his grave if I didn't!
Cheers!
Last edited by jai6638; 9th Jun 2008 at 20:03.
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Totally sorry to barge in but I would like a straight clarification . I looked the DGCA website over and could not find anything about those new rules regarding foreign validations or employment .
Can you or can you not apply for a F/O position right now ? (having the min.required of course ?) say with Indigo , GoAir or Kingfisher ?
Thanks for that .
Can you or can you not apply for a F/O position right now ? (having the min.required of course ?) say with Indigo , GoAir or Kingfisher ?
Thanks for that .
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this thread seems to be going a bit off track with a few people getting very spiteful if not boarderline racist.
at the end of the day whichever country you go to people will alwase favour "their own" to and outsider. look at an airline like BA, they have more WHITE pilots but no one is saying anything. forget the airline industry all together, in every aspect of working anywhere int he world employers will alwase favour people from their own country.
i myself am an indian living in the UK and have done a good few different jobs while studying and training.let me tell you there is most deffinatly partiality everywhere. ive lived in other coutries as well and guess what same thing with their "locals" as well.
saying that however, IF the indian airlines are putting pilots that dont even have the ink dry on their licences into a left hand seat, that is wrong. however i do now think that is the case. what i see is a country which is doing what any other country would do- have its intrests come first.
by the way Hard_Landing:- i dont see how the indo pakistan war has being going on since the 1300's as pakistan only came on the map in 1947 when the british used the old divide and rule techniqe. i would advise you to keep your views about India history to youself as it has no relivance to this thread.
at the end of the day whichever country you go to people will alwase favour "their own" to and outsider. look at an airline like BA, they have more WHITE pilots but no one is saying anything. forget the airline industry all together, in every aspect of working anywhere int he world employers will alwase favour people from their own country.
i myself am an indian living in the UK and have done a good few different jobs while studying and training.let me tell you there is most deffinatly partiality everywhere. ive lived in other coutries as well and guess what same thing with their "locals" as well.
saying that however, IF the indian airlines are putting pilots that dont even have the ink dry on their licences into a left hand seat, that is wrong. however i do now think that is the case. what i see is a country which is doing what any other country would do- have its intrests come first.
by the way Hard_Landing:- i dont see how the indo pakistan war has being going on since the 1300's as pakistan only came on the map in 1947 when the british used the old divide and rule techniqe. i would advise you to keep your views about India history to youself as it has no relivance to this thread.
Last edited by Nashers; 9th Jun 2008 at 20:56.
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I agree. Totally off track. Sorry chaps.
I must clear up one point. The Indo-Pakistan war over disputed land in Kashmir has been a war between the same FACTIONS for hundreds of years. Kashmir has been disputed since the 1300's
Anyway, sorry again chaps...must try to stay on track in future
I must clear up one point. The Indo-Pakistan war over disputed land in Kashmir has been a war between the same FACTIONS for hundreds of years. Kashmir has been disputed since the 1300's
Anyway, sorry again chaps...must try to stay on track in future
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"at the end of the day whichever country you go to people will alwase favour "their own" to and outsider".
Wrong ! In Europe (U.E.) our
gvt favour the outsider againts the locals ! 
Wrong ! In Europe (U.E.) our
gvt favour the outsider againts the locals !
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Dear Members of a distinguished (disguised??)Industry!
I am stunned by the tone that is used in this thread! I had two options in 1996: Stay in my Country and flying for sick outfits after my Airline went down the drain and owed me more then 3 month´s salary or going somewhere else where I was welcomed to fill a gap and fly a plane. I did not expact that they fall in love with me instantly. "We" found common ground in the cockpit and during the layover times, my Co-workers educated me about the History of the Country and we went along well. Some of them are still exchanging E-Mails with me after 11 Years. Later I went to the North and had a Year theire. Nice People, we did not see us as a Competition, we added to each other, where flying planes, making jokes and had a good time. Then another Culture shock in Far East. Knew it would be diffucult but it worked and the Airline would not fly anymore without Expats at all. Some of the F/O´s I was flying there are now Chief-Pilots and in key positions within the structure of that outfit. I was not in love with them and they where not in love with me but we did our job and flew Airplanes 24/7. Politics where heavily around there but all Expats tried to avoid it as much as possible. The Locals could do what they want, we are there to fill a Gap and without Foreign workers the whole country would not develop as quick as it would be required. There are Asians working in USA and Europe why? because they are needed, simple. Why are Indians working all over the World? Because there is a Job that needs to be done and whoever is applying for it get´s it. Today it is a Indian...if he decides to leave who is filling his position? who knows. As a Company you have a slot, seat, position or anything to fill to keep the business going and make profit.
The tone used here freigthens me, seriously. I thought I am tolerant enough and respect Humans as they are, no matter of Race or Colour. What I am learning here is in some parts disgusting for me, between the lines I read so much of hate. We discussing here the future of people and the fate of the Families who´s Moneymaker(mostly the Father) is facing the question: How can I put food on the family table beyond 2010, how can I provide shelter to my Family by keeping the House and the Home?. Planning now the Exit from India and looking somewhere else. Back at home ? maybe... Makes that a Indian happy, please feel free to do so but we are all in the same Boat more or less. By the way I have no Wife and no Children to feed but many other people have and I share my thought´s towards them. My Co-Workers are coming from all Continents and I care about them, White, Black, Yellow and Indians. I would be a happy Man if you go out on the Street in Callicut or Chennai and help the people on the Street to reduce the daily struggle. Care to give them a helping hand and look at the poorest of the poor. Take the only half of the effort you use here to accuse and they would thank you and the World, India belongs to it as well, would be a better place. Jealousy would be reduced and a filled stomach at the end of the day would give some peace and a good night sleep to the ones in need. If some of you would really dare care for them with the same enthusiasm then you battle here then some of you could earn my respect, as I saight in the beginning I am shocked by the tone used here............
Fly safe and land happy
NG
I am stunned by the tone that is used in this thread! I had two options in 1996: Stay in my Country and flying for sick outfits after my Airline went down the drain and owed me more then 3 month´s salary or going somewhere else where I was welcomed to fill a gap and fly a plane. I did not expact that they fall in love with me instantly. "We" found common ground in the cockpit and during the layover times, my Co-workers educated me about the History of the Country and we went along well. Some of them are still exchanging E-Mails with me after 11 Years. Later I went to the North and had a Year theire. Nice People, we did not see us as a Competition, we added to each other, where flying planes, making jokes and had a good time. Then another Culture shock in Far East. Knew it would be diffucult but it worked and the Airline would not fly anymore without Expats at all. Some of the F/O´s I was flying there are now Chief-Pilots and in key positions within the structure of that outfit. I was not in love with them and they where not in love with me but we did our job and flew Airplanes 24/7. Politics where heavily around there but all Expats tried to avoid it as much as possible. The Locals could do what they want, we are there to fill a Gap and without Foreign workers the whole country would not develop as quick as it would be required. There are Asians working in USA and Europe why? because they are needed, simple. Why are Indians working all over the World? Because there is a Job that needs to be done and whoever is applying for it get´s it. Today it is a Indian...if he decides to leave who is filling his position? who knows. As a Company you have a slot, seat, position or anything to fill to keep the business going and make profit.
The tone used here freigthens me, seriously. I thought I am tolerant enough and respect Humans as they are, no matter of Race or Colour. What I am learning here is in some parts disgusting for me, between the lines I read so much of hate. We discussing here the future of people and the fate of the Families who´s Moneymaker(mostly the Father) is facing the question: How can I put food on the family table beyond 2010, how can I provide shelter to my Family by keeping the House and the Home?. Planning now the Exit from India and looking somewhere else. Back at home ? maybe... Makes that a Indian happy, please feel free to do so but we are all in the same Boat more or less. By the way I have no Wife and no Children to feed but many other people have and I share my thought´s towards them. My Co-Workers are coming from all Continents and I care about them, White, Black, Yellow and Indians. I would be a happy Man if you go out on the Street in Callicut or Chennai and help the people on the Street to reduce the daily struggle. Care to give them a helping hand and look at the poorest of the poor. Take the only half of the effort you use here to accuse and they would thank you and the World, India belongs to it as well, would be a better place. Jealousy would be reduced and a filled stomach at the end of the day would give some peace and a good night sleep to the ones in need. If some of you would really dare care for them with the same enthusiasm then you battle here then some of you could earn my respect, as I saight in the beginning I am shocked by the tone used here............
Fly safe and land happy
NG
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kk pilot, we are in absolute agreement that safety is paramount in aviation and should never be compromized. That is why, if you studied the aviation scene in India, you'd realize that the quality, competence or relative inexperience of some pilots is a total non-issue.
The real issues are the ATC, airport perimeter security and so on, and there's only so much a pilot -low hours or experienced- can do about these issues, since we all operate as co-ordinated and cooperative teams to keep the planes flying.
xxxxx
On some other issues members have raised:
1. The issue of Indian workers moving to other places in west for work, and non-Indians moving to India has more to do with Internaional trade and WTO politics than we realize. All nations bargain hard and seek concessions they think will be in their best interests. It is very much a give and take exercise, and no favors are granted.
Since none here have likely studied the relevant documents, we do not know what India gave up in return for the privilige of allowing a few thousand Indian citizens to emigrate to western countries. Equally, we also do not know what priviliges other countries have earned in this bargain, amongst others.
2. Secondly, whether it is an Indian worker moving to west or someone from west moving to India, one should always consider it a privilige to be able to move to a foriegn country and have the ability to gain emplyment. Not some kind of right right.
Trying to disguise one's insecurity about future career prospects by sniping on safety issues is poor form, even though it might allow some people to feel better about themselves in short term.
I don't entertain the opinion that the healthcare in United Kingdom would fall apart totally and people will start dying on the streets just because some Indian doctors and nursing staff have been told to return to India. Or the computer industry would stagnate if Indian workers are barred from working in US.
Many expatriate workers have got jobs in the aviation industry in India, a privilige for which they should be thankful. The same holds true for all Indian citizens who have gained employment in other nations. But when the times and policies change, one should be prepared to adapt and survive, rather than whine and try to wish away the sovereignty of host nations.
This is a "risk" that all of us who work in foreign countries take.
The real issues are the ATC, airport perimeter security and so on, and there's only so much a pilot -low hours or experienced- can do about these issues, since we all operate as co-ordinated and cooperative teams to keep the planes flying.
xxxxx
On some other issues members have raised:
1. The issue of Indian workers moving to other places in west for work, and non-Indians moving to India has more to do with Internaional trade and WTO politics than we realize. All nations bargain hard and seek concessions they think will be in their best interests. It is very much a give and take exercise, and no favors are granted.
Since none here have likely studied the relevant documents, we do not know what India gave up in return for the privilige of allowing a few thousand Indian citizens to emigrate to western countries. Equally, we also do not know what priviliges other countries have earned in this bargain, amongst others.
2. Secondly, whether it is an Indian worker moving to west or someone from west moving to India, one should always consider it a privilige to be able to move to a foriegn country and have the ability to gain emplyment. Not some kind of right right.
Trying to disguise one's insecurity about future career prospects by sniping on safety issues is poor form, even though it might allow some people to feel better about themselves in short term.
I don't entertain the opinion that the healthcare in United Kingdom would fall apart totally and people will start dying on the streets just because some Indian doctors and nursing staff have been told to return to India. Or the computer industry would stagnate if Indian workers are barred from working in US.
Many expatriate workers have got jobs in the aviation industry in India, a privilige for which they should be thankful. The same holds true for all Indian citizens who have gained employment in other nations. But when the times and policies change, one should be prepared to adapt and survive, rather than whine and try to wish away the sovereignty of host nations.
This is a "risk" that all of us who work in foreign countries take.
AlwaysOnFire
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So what are the airlines saying, will they accept this limitation? Remember the old days where Air India and Indian Airlines had monopoly on domestic airtravel in India back in the 1980ies.
Will airlines like Kingfisher stay in India?
Will airlines like Kingfisher stay in India?
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Option
One of many options would be: Sell the VT regsitered Airplanes to Lease Companies in Irleland or USA and then have them EI-or N-registered and then have them running by Crews who have a FAA-JAA Licence. That would add petrol to the Fire. As a Company you can setup a second AOC and then you have more flexibility for both sides, the Labour and the Authority, you can play ping pong then. Not a nice way to go but maybe needed to sacrifice the demand if you want to grow and India is growing for sure. No discrimination at all but money talks at the end of the day.........
Fly safe and land happy
NG
Fly safe and land happy
NG
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OK, lets face facts here.
A good many First Officers who have migrated to India think they are the cat's pajamas...IE. best (better) than anyone else.
WRONG.
They are NOT...they are a dime for a dozen, as might be expected.
Will, these 'new' First Officers ever learn ?
Sadly...not in their lifetime.
Hey...they 'know it all'...NOT.
A good many First Officers who have migrated to India think they are the cat's pajamas...IE. best (better) than anyone else.
WRONG.
They are NOT...they are a dime for a dozen, as might be expected.
Will, these 'new' First Officers ever learn ?
Sadly...not in their lifetime.
Hey...they 'know it all'...NOT.
Last edited by 411A; 18th Jun 2008 at 21:07.
411
With due respect to your wind up...
It seems your comments are generalising on a group of individuals you know little about... Maybe you posted this after a tiring flight and ... a few?
Everyone learns... some the hard way and some learn from others mistakes
Fly safe
JB
With due respect to your wind up...
It seems your comments are generalising on a group of individuals you know little about... Maybe you posted this after a tiring flight and ... a few?
Everyone learns... some the hard way and some learn from others mistakes
Fly safe
JB
