Korean and Asiana - whats the big hang up?

[Invaribly]

Call me nieve ,but I find it hard to see how such a long established and national airline of a relativly wealthy country,not to mention with one of the most modern fleets in the industry "beats it's F/O during sim checks" (!!!)to quote one guy on this board.
Ok I am not a qualified pilot ,but are things really as bad as they appear to seem with Korean?
I have a really great idea - instead of insulting me in your replies and calling a f***ing fool tell me exactly WHAT IS WRONG WITH A TYPICAL KOREAN AIRLINES CAPTAIN.Give us all good details,instead of the meek threads that seem to have predominated this topic.Thats if anyone can of course.Describe situations to me and indeed the rest of us all,because I gather that 99% of what has been said about this airline has been from "a friend of a friend of a friend told me. . .etc".
As for Asiana:if it is worse than Korean than how come it has never had a major crash - EVER?Ok I will give you that things might not be good there , but they cant be that bad if they have a relativly clean record.Can they?Explain please!

[411A]

DAL did a safety audit and promptly cancelled the codeshare agreement....I personally know some of the DAL guys and the stories they relate would make your hair stand on end.
Korea is now Catagory 2 with good reason.
Travel on KE at your own risk.

[Hand Solo]

Click on Tech/Safety on the menu on the left then read the audit.

[Al Weaver]

411A

I don't fathom how your posts seem to paint only in black and white, with no pretense at a fair discussion. I grant you that Korean (as in KAL) has had past problems including a scathing audit by DAL. I had thought the purpose of such an audit was to encourage improvement and addressing of issues. Supposedly with time which has now past, improvement was expected. Now the safety issue has expanded into a new arena ,which is the amount and quality of expected oversight by a Government agency. I don't see why this should be a condemnation of a specific airline. The code 2 you mention is not a rating of either Asiana or Korean Airline's current capability or performance in a safety arena. It seems to be a rating of the current capability of the KCAB which is now being rapidly addressed.

You may use your freedom of choice to not fly any airline you choose, but lets be objective about assigning past tense to present and future tense when it comes to airline safety.

[767driver]

Invaribly,

Do a more complete search: Asiana, despite being a very young airline (a little more than 10 years old) demolished a 737 on a CFIT at the third approach try below minimums, killing a lot of people.
Not exactly a good safety record, though.
And, unfortunately, more accidents will come, unless they became really serious on fixing several things. It takes much more than new and fancy aircraft to make a true airline.

[greybeard]

Why pick on KAL per se?

Another "Local" Airline of "Very High Standing" tells it's new recruits "YOU ARE SCUM OF THE SCUM" and that is, or certainly was, in the official briefing documents used.

Verbal abuse is the order of the day, physical not yet eradicated totally and the statement "Any questions from you will indicate a lack of knowlege" still echoes in the system.

A newly promoted crew to a larger fleet was challanged to his new status by a "Supervisory" because he had delayed a flight by firing the bottles in a fire situation. The statement "You were supposed to be held back" was used.

Different cultures do things different ways we all agree, but the practice of good aviation is missed by some, I hope the younger ones amoung us have as much fun and joy in their flying as I have and am having, but it's getting harder all over not just in Asia.

Sui generus


[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: greybeard ]

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: greybeard ]

[asiana pilot]

What a dull life pilot you are...

I am a Asiana Pilot who like to tell you this.

Yes, Asiana had an accident in 1993 and that is the only serious accident we have.

Oh! I am sorry. We did have another serious
accident in Cheju Airport. Do you know who the Captain was?

The Captain's name is Fail ( Real Name from Canada ) who went to Canada and I heard that he is still flying in Canada.

He broke the airplane in two sections. And after landing, maintenance could see the inside of the aircraft from outside.

He landed nose gear first. Do you know why?
Because of strong wind, he added 1/2 of the head wind component. V ref + 32 knots

Oh..

I have another one to tell you.

There is one Western Captain ( I won't say his nationality) who came for a Sim Ride...

On RTO, the captin yelled at the FO because
the FO didn't raise the Reverser for Captain.
And the captain explained to the check airman that FO should raise the Reverser for the Captin and the captin also said that the Asiana Airlines should change the RTO procedures like his old Company. ( PNF should use the reverser... ha ha ha....)

In conclusion...

There are a few pilots who are not qualified,I mean bad pilots,in every airlines.

United, American, Delta, Air France, Lufftan,
Britsh Air, and etc...

I heard so many rumors that some of the above
mentioned airlines Captins made the most
stupid mistakes and accidents (EX: two B747 airplane collided on Canary Island)

I think those pilots who like to talk about
other pilots mistakes, are the one who has problems and they are the most dangerous pilots in the world.


One other thing...

FAA said that Korean Ministry of Transportation is so bad that FAA rated Korean Ministry of Transportain as CAT 2...

Do you know the real behind story?

The reason is Korean Goverment is negotiating
with France and Russia for the New Fighter Aircrafts instead of F16 from USA.

And USA is trying to teach a lesson to the small and weak contry like Korea...

-------------------------------------------
Can I add a rumor?

Do you know why TWA has so many New Boeing Aircrafts after an Aircraft explored in the air near Florida?

Yes, the answer is...... missile......

[411A]

Well then...what more can be said.

[tulips]

Asiana pilot, I see you graduated with honours in the propaganda course.....

[tulips]

Or did the parked Aeroflot just jump out from behind a pole and attack the unsuspecting Asiana -400?.....



It's not like they were THAT far apart during taxy..... Maybe looking out the front left window (that's where the captain sits, AP) would have helped!



"Can happen to all of us, just seems to happen more to some of us!!"

[asiana pilot]

tulips...

You are trully right...

We had a accident in Anchorage..
Before I was talking about the accident that had human casualties.

Can I ask you what airline you are working for?

As far as I know, SIA was the only airline that didn't have any accident until last year. Even Quanta had an accident...

Now , let me ask you one more question.

Are you a line pilot or trying to be?

If you are a line pilot, I would like to know the name of your ailine.
So I can find out if your airline had any
accident or not...

And if your airline had a accidnet, I want to know if the accident was stupid accident or smart accident.

What I am trying to tell you here is ....

I am not saying that I am the best pilots and
I am not saying that all the Asiana and Korean Air pilots are the best skilled pilots.

All I am saying is every airlines have at least one accident and every airlines have a few real bad pilots.

[767driver]

Asiana Pilot,

Congratulations! Your first post was the funniest thing I have read, could not stop laughing for 5 minutes!...oh, boy.
Are you sure you are 47 pilot? If you are, Asiana problems are even bigger than we think, by allowing paranoid-squizophrenics take controls of their aircraft. Does Asiana Medical Center have psychiatrist?
Man, we are here talking about serious stuff, like , for instance, Korea civil aviation safety record being one of the worst of the world, comparable to the poorest Central Africa countries...and we are associating this to certain cultural/behaviorial factors.
Your reaction just emphasize this belief. See the trend "Asiana Contracts", do some self critics...
Well, maybe like 411 said, I am losing my time...
Anyo ah sip syo!

[7x7]

Knew a bloke (my neighbour when I was a kid) who spent three and a half years as a prisoner of war to the Japanese. He did the whole nine yards… Changi, Burma Railway. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of history will have some idea of what that involved… starvation, extreme maltreatment, tropical diseases, poor to non-existent medical treatment, even summary execution.

You'd think that anyone who'd gone through all that wouldn't have a hell of a lot of time for the Japanese, but the interesting thing was, this bloke said he didn't mind them particularly. They were harsh taskmasters, but you knew where you stood with them. (I'm only repeating what he said.)

However, he didn't come home without some serious emotional baggage. Where he had some grudging respect for the Japanese, he loathed the Koreans with a passion that had not abated twenty years after the war. There was a reason for this. The Koreans made up the majority of the prison camp guards in the Japanese Army, (because the Japanese considered such work beneath the dignity of a Japanese soldier), so he would have seen many more Koreans than Japanese. The Koreans were also treated terribly by the Japanese, so it might be said that human nature being what it was, they just passed on the grief to the prisoners.

However, the really interesting thing my neighbour said about the Koreans, which, having read the posts above from asiania pilot, shows (I think), that he was an astute judge of human character.

His comment? 'Every race thinks that they are superior to all other races. The Koreans know they are.'

This attitude of racial superiority might be advantageous in an army where soldiers are pitted against soldiers of another nation with the object of defeating them in battle. It may not be quite so advantageous in a multi racial, multi cultural cockpit of a modern jet aircraft. The fact that many local pilots in KAL and Asiania are ex military (often single seat, fast jet) pilots might have some bearing on the problems some Westerners seem to encounter when working with them. The fact that these local pilots are allowed to carry over their military rank, if only tacitly, when they come to the airline might not be seen to help from a Western perspective.

I think it's clear from what asiania pilot has said above that some Korean pilots sees any Westerner coming to Korea to work as a failure in his own country and seriously below their standards. I think it only fair to say that some Western pilots who attempt to do so do in fact have chequered histories. But until there's a total turnaround in the attitudes of the older Korean pilots to CRM, accepting criticism from junior crew and to acceptance of people not of their culture, there are going to be continuing problems in Korean cockpits, problems that will sometimes lead to accidents.

I'm told there's hope. The younger graduates of the civil training programme are said to be breaking this military mindset. However, in the short term, they are the poor sods we hear about being beaten by their training captains.

[ELAC]

Funny how the only Korean accident that they can ever remember is the one where a western pilot was in command. The Korean FO's interference on the controls and the fact that that was the factor that caused the airplane to over-run the runway ... well that is always very conveniently forgotten.

[LRdriver]

Considering that this is a discussion forum I welcome the view and opinion from the other side.. It makes interesting reading and as much as we may disagree with asianas defence, it must be allowed in the name of democracy..

PS hes right, I think we all can think of a stupid accident happening in all airlines

[michaell 72]

Asiana pilot...
Whilst earning my stripes, so to speak, I was a flight instructor. At my school we had many O/S students including some from Korea. It was a proven fact on the aerodrome that Korean students took a hell of a lot longer than other nationalities to make the grade. When challenged by students why they could not attempt their CPL flight test, they were told they were not up to CASA standard. A number of students protested so much that the CFI put them up for a test. Everyone of these students failed their initial test. It can not be said that these students were treated differently to any other student with regards to their training. Through out their training the students and instructors became firm friends, with friendships continuing past training.

I do not wish to offend, however this is my experience with Korean pilots.

[Few Cloudy]

Matter of fact the crash with the Canadian Captain involved some lousy cockpit discipline from his FO. Way I heard it an unstabilised approach resulted from this behaviour. Any more info?

[stator vane]

i couldn't read this thread and stay quiet.

first of all, i was at asiana, captain 737 from nov 96 to mar 98, so i do know some of what it is like inside the company.

secondly,
when i read asiana pilot's replies, i could honestly agree with what he said! and even his perspective is not that unusual.

when reading his words, put yourself in his place in trying to write in another language. some of us couldn't even begin to do that.

not in any certain order:

how many american pilots thought that a missile might have been the cause of the TWA 747 off New York?

and when one goes back to the war days, lets be honest that ALL COUNTRIES did things that shouldn't have been done. read THE DAY OF TWO SUNS to see how americans did nuclear tests on the marshal island's people AFTER THE WAR! hard not to compare that to what the germans cooked in their ovens.

as to the slowness of their learning, did not some aces from WW2 fail their first tests and went to canada to try again and later become some of the best of the best?
did not douglas bader make an early mistake and lose his lower legs and then become one of the best. slow learners can often later become the best.

and through no fault of the pilots themselves, they are placed into the right seat of 737 with about 300 hours. how many of us would refuse that opportunity ourselves, and not make very similar mistakes? and they do go from right seat 737 to right seat 747 and then back to left seat 737. there will be mistakes.

as to 747's taxing into other aircraft, i do think americans have done their share of that also.

culturally, they do start out differently than most of us. they are raised from birth into a very strict authoritative respect for elders, etc. the ones i met that had learned to fly in other countries were as good as any other i have seen, individual differences allowed.

his conclusion was spot on.

his "what i am trying to tell you" is spot on.

as to racial superiority, i remember separate water fountains in alabama, USA, and take a drive through montana and see the reservations.

read what the americans did to many who simply looked oriental in california during WW2.

back to flying;

i've been there and done that in korea.
a small country with short flights, poor scheduling. i know that accumalative fatique has a lot to do with many of those accidents, incidents. that is fault of management.

as to the accusation of propaganda-come to europe and you will hear another view of america that we are sheltered from in the states.

see what they think of an american ATP written test in europe.

i personally encountered bad sim instructors there but i have seen them in the USA as well as elsewhere.

and don't get me started on the FAA!!!

just another numbered pilot

[WANDERLUST]

As an instructor and check pilot for KAL (FSBTI)I can tell you that although KAL has had its problems in the past the change within the last twelve months is quite dramatic and is well on its way to being able to stand with any major airline in the realm of pilot training and flight safety.
There is a lot of energy being put into this company at all levels inorder to improve its operation standards. I know for a fact that some of the major American and European airlines do not all have the standard that they claim to have.
The Cat2 grading from the FAA had nothing to do with the two Korean airlines.
Be fair.

[Invaribly]

Spot on Asiana pilot.I am sick and tired of all the "American lovers" on this site.It's not all like it is on tv you know!
Asiana pilot is perfectly accurate and right in my opinion.Make no mistake about the catagory2 downgrade - Americans starting up trouble again.
All I can say to Asiana pilot and his likes is not to be afraid to voice your very welcome opinion on this site.It's about time all these "Yanks"got put in there place.They are destroying the whole of the world in my opinion.THE $ IS THEIR GOD.They have no morals or respect for anyone else - big brother throwing his big fat weight around.
Well done Asiana pilot and keep the good work up.