Korean and Asiana - whats the big hang up?
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Dear ASIANA PILOT,
I think you are not informed, because OZ are recruiting 3 F/O from GA resently, I don't know if OZ can accepting them, mean that the safety standard are in the same level of GA pilots and the company can continue recruiting more F/O from GA, low salary and hard working pilots
I think you are not informed, because OZ are recruiting 3 F/O from GA resently, I don't know if OZ can accepting them, mean that the safety standard are in the same level of GA pilots and the company can continue recruiting more F/O from GA, low salary and hard working pilots
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Date: 08/06/1997
Location: Agana, Guam
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 747-300
Registration: HL-7468
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 228:254
Details: The aircraft crashed into Nimitz Hill, 3 miles short of Runway 06R, while making a non-precision approach in heavy rain to A.B. Won Guam International Airport. The runway glide slope system was inoperative. In addition, the Minimum Safe Altitude Warning system (MSAW) was also not working due to a software problem. The captain's failure to adequately brief and execute the non-precision approach and the first officer's and flight engineer's failure to effectively monitor and cross-check the captain's execution of the approach. Contributing to these failures were the captain's fatigue and Korean Air's inadequate flight crew training. Contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) intentional inhibition of the minimum safe altitude warning system (MSAW) at Guam and the agency's failure to adequately manage the system.
Date: 08/10/1994
Location: Cheju, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Airbus A300-600R B4
Registration: HL-7296
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 0:160
Details: The aircraft overran the runway and caught fire while landing during adverse weather conditions. The approach was flown with slats/flaps at 15/20 degrees due to suspected windshear. Crew error. There was a struggle and argument between the captain and copilot during the last seconds of the landing as to whether they should go-around.
Date: 11/25/1989
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Fokker F-28 Fellowship 4000
Registration: HL-7255
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 1:52
Details: The plane crashed during takeoff after losing the left engine, directional control and overrunning the runway and catching fire.
Date: 07/27/1989
Location: Tripoli, Libya
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30
Registration: HL-7328
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 75:200 +6
Details: The aircraft crashed short of the runway while landing in fog. Failure of the captain to land without analyzing the weather data.
Date: 11/29/1987
Location: Andaman Sea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 707-300C
Registration: HL-7406
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 115:115
Details: The plane crashed while on a flight from Abu Dhabi to Bangkok. Detonation of an explosive device in the passenger cabin left by two passengers who exited the plane at Abu Dhabi. A 75 year old man and Korean woman were arrested as they tried to use fake passports to fly to Rome. While under guard, the man bit into a cyanide capsule and died. The woman, a North Korean agent, confessed to the crime.
Date: 09/01/1983
Location: Sakhalin Island, Russia
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 747-200B
Registration: HL-7442
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 269:269
Details: On a flight from Alaska to South Korea, the airliner drifted off course and twice penetrated Soviet airspace. During the second penetration, the airliner was shot down by a Russian Su-15 Air Force fighter with air-to-air missiles. The aircraft crashed into international waters in the Sea of Japan. U.S. Representative from Georgia Lawrence McDonald killed.
Date: 04/20/1978
Location: Murmansk, Russia, USSR
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 707-300B
Registration: HL-7429
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 2:109
Details: The aircraft, which deviated off course, suffered rapid decompression after being fired upon by a Russian fighter. The aircraft made an emergency landing on a frozen lake.
Date: 01/23/1971
Location: Sokcho, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Fokker F-27 Friendship 500
Registration: HL-5212
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 2:60
Details: Crash landed on a beach after a hijacker detonated grenades he was carrying. The hijacker and the co-pilot were killed by the grenade explosions.
Add the two freighter crashes in 1999,(Stanstead and Shanghi), the 744 hull loss in Seoul. 8/98, landing, MD88 hull loss, Miho, 1998/9, 747-200 hull loss in 11/80, Seoul landing accident, DC-10 freighter crash in Anchorage in 1980 (?). Of 33 worldwide 747 hull losses, 5 are KAL’s; 15%. This includes 11 losses attritutable to military action, hijackings and the the Tennerife accident. Pilot error only crashes, and KAL accounts for about one quarter of the world’s 747 hull losses. Hummmmmm.
Location: Agana, Guam
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 747-300
Registration: HL-7468
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 228:254
Details: The aircraft crashed into Nimitz Hill, 3 miles short of Runway 06R, while making a non-precision approach in heavy rain to A.B. Won Guam International Airport. The runway glide slope system was inoperative. In addition, the Minimum Safe Altitude Warning system (MSAW) was also not working due to a software problem. The captain's failure to adequately brief and execute the non-precision approach and the first officer's and flight engineer's failure to effectively monitor and cross-check the captain's execution of the approach. Contributing to these failures were the captain's fatigue and Korean Air's inadequate flight crew training. Contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) intentional inhibition of the minimum safe altitude warning system (MSAW) at Guam and the agency's failure to adequately manage the system.
Date: 08/10/1994
Location: Cheju, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Airbus A300-600R B4
Registration: HL-7296
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 0:160
Details: The aircraft overran the runway and caught fire while landing during adverse weather conditions. The approach was flown with slats/flaps at 15/20 degrees due to suspected windshear. Crew error. There was a struggle and argument between the captain and copilot during the last seconds of the landing as to whether they should go-around.
Date: 11/25/1989
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Fokker F-28 Fellowship 4000
Registration: HL-7255
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 1:52
Details: The plane crashed during takeoff after losing the left engine, directional control and overrunning the runway and catching fire.
Date: 07/27/1989
Location: Tripoli, Libya
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30
Registration: HL-7328
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 75:200 +6
Details: The aircraft crashed short of the runway while landing in fog. Failure of the captain to land without analyzing the weather data.
Date: 11/29/1987
Location: Andaman Sea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 707-300C
Registration: HL-7406
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 115:115
Details: The plane crashed while on a flight from Abu Dhabi to Bangkok. Detonation of an explosive device in the passenger cabin left by two passengers who exited the plane at Abu Dhabi. A 75 year old man and Korean woman were arrested as they tried to use fake passports to fly to Rome. While under guard, the man bit into a cyanide capsule and died. The woman, a North Korean agent, confessed to the crime.
Date: 09/01/1983
Location: Sakhalin Island, Russia
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 747-200B
Registration: HL-7442
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 269:269
Details: On a flight from Alaska to South Korea, the airliner drifted off course and twice penetrated Soviet airspace. During the second penetration, the airliner was shot down by a Russian Su-15 Air Force fighter with air-to-air missiles. The aircraft crashed into international waters in the Sea of Japan. U.S. Representative from Georgia Lawrence McDonald killed.
Date: 04/20/1978
Location: Murmansk, Russia, USSR
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 707-300B
Registration: HL-7429
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 2:109
Details: The aircraft, which deviated off course, suffered rapid decompression after being fired upon by a Russian fighter. The aircraft made an emergency landing on a frozen lake.
Date: 01/23/1971
Location: Sokcho, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Fokker F-27 Friendship 500
Registration: HL-5212
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 2:60
Details: Crash landed on a beach after a hijacker detonated grenades he was carrying. The hijacker and the co-pilot were killed by the grenade explosions.
Add the two freighter crashes in 1999,(Stanstead and Shanghi), the 744 hull loss in Seoul. 8/98, landing, MD88 hull loss, Miho, 1998/9, 747-200 hull loss in 11/80, Seoul landing accident, DC-10 freighter crash in Anchorage in 1980 (?). Of 33 worldwide 747 hull losses, 5 are KAL’s; 15%. This includes 11 losses attritutable to military action, hijackings and the the Tennerife accident. Pilot error only crashes, and KAL accounts for about one quarter of the world’s 747 hull losses. Hummmmmm.
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Dear Turtlenest,
You forget to mention Asiana's acidents and incidents.
Nobody wants it, but unfortunately more will come.
...I just can imagine the terrible time insurance brokers may have doing their job at South Korea...a lot of raising eyebrows, certainly.
You forget to mention Asiana's acidents and incidents.
Nobody wants it, but unfortunately more will come.
...I just can imagine the terrible time insurance brokers may have doing their job at South Korea...a lot of raising eyebrows, certainly.
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Ah, yes. There was 1999 KAL MD11 Cargo the crew flew into some buidings 3 minutes after take off, in China. They mistaken altimeters readout (meters in China) and as they were instructed to maintain 1,500 METERS after take off, crew panicked seeing the altimeters winding up fastly passing 1,500 FEET and just pushed forward, plunging the plane into the ground...
So affraid of commit a violation they are...
So affraid of commit a violation they are...
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Reputations are generally earned. KAL has severe crew human factors/CRM issues as well as severe management problems. And the solution is??? . . . . . get rid of the western pilots? Well, like I said . . .
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
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To Turtlenest!
Mentioning pilot error accidents in regards to Korean Airlines or any other airlines is superficial in our times. Modern investigations into accidents would suggest that pilot error, mechanical failures, weather, etc... as causal factors of an accident is a thing of the past.
As Reason puts it, there are common elements in any accident, latent failures which has remained unnoticed within an airline for a considerable amount of time,arising mainly from management decisions. You have local factors which directy influence performance in the workplace caused by task, situational and environmental factors. Active failures which are errors concerning operational personnel such as pilots, ATC, maintenance, cabin crew etc.... and you also you have inadequate or absent defences which fails to identify and protect the airlines against technical and human failures coming from the three previous elements mentioned.
The tone of this topic seems to revolve around who are the better pilots Korean or western, which is absolutely foolish. To also say "pilot error" as the sole cause of accidents mentioned.
Get it right Turtlenest!, Tenerife accident was between Pan-Am and KLM not KAL. You're just itching with anything that starts with "k", hmmmmmmmmmm...
Hey Turlenest! what's with the accident history on Korean Airlines? Every airline has had an accident, anyone can dig up a history on an airline.
Date: 20/12/1936
Location: Rice Canyon, Newhall, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-2
Fatalities: 12
Details: Crashed into a mountain
Date: 24/10/1947
Location: Bryce Canyon, Utah, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6
Fatalities: 52
Details: Onboard fire
Date: 17/06/1948
Location: Mount Carmel, USA,
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6
Fatalities: 43
Details: Onboard fire
Date: 24/08/1951
Location: Oakland USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6B
Fatalities: 50
Details: Hit a Hill
Date: 06/10/1955
Location: Medicine Bow Peak, Laramie, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-4
Fatalities: 66
Details: Crashed into a mountain
Date: 01/11/1955
Location: Denver, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6B
Fatalities: 44
Details: Mid air bomb
Date: 30/06/1956
Location: Grand Canyon, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-7
Fatalities: 128
Details: mid air collision
Date: 21/04/1958
Location: Sloan, Las Vegas, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-7
Fatalities: 47
Details: mid air collision
Date: 16/12/1960
Location: New York, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-8-11
Fatalities: 134
Details: mid air collision
Date: 11/07/1961
Location: Denver, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-8
Fatalities: 17
Details: crashed on landing
Date: 23/11/1962
Location: Ellicott City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: Vickers Viscount 745D
Fatalities: 18
Details: bird strike
Date: 09/07/1964
Location: Parrotts Ville,USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: Vickers Viscount 745D
Fatalities: 39
Details: onboard fire
Date: 16/08/1965
Location: Chicago,USA
Airline: United AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727-22
Fatalities: 30
Details: crashed into a lake
Date: 11/11/1965
Location: Salt Lake City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727
Fatalities: 41
Details: crashed on landing
Date: 18/01/1965
Location: Los Angeles
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727
Fatalities: 38
Details: crashed into ocean
Date: 18/01/1969
Location: Chicago, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 737-222
Fatalities: 61
Details: crashed on landing
Date: 13/04/1988
Location: Hennenman, South Africa
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-3
Fatalities: 24
Details: fuel pump fire
Date: 24/02/1989
Location: Hawaii, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 747
Fatalities: 9
Details: cargo door separation
Date: 19/07/1989
Location: Suix City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-10
Fatalities: 111
Details: hydraulic-engine failure
Date: 03/03/1991
Location: Colorado Springs
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 737
Fatalities: 25
Details: on landing approach.
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: lightspeed ]
Mentioning pilot error accidents in regards to Korean Airlines or any other airlines is superficial in our times. Modern investigations into accidents would suggest that pilot error, mechanical failures, weather, etc... as causal factors of an accident is a thing of the past.
As Reason puts it, there are common elements in any accident, latent failures which has remained unnoticed within an airline for a considerable amount of time,arising mainly from management decisions. You have local factors which directy influence performance in the workplace caused by task, situational and environmental factors. Active failures which are errors concerning operational personnel such as pilots, ATC, maintenance, cabin crew etc.... and you also you have inadequate or absent defences which fails to identify and protect the airlines against technical and human failures coming from the three previous elements mentioned.
The tone of this topic seems to revolve around who are the better pilots Korean or western, which is absolutely foolish. To also say "pilot error" as the sole cause of accidents mentioned.
Get it right Turtlenest!, Tenerife accident was between Pan-Am and KLM not KAL. You're just itching with anything that starts with "k", hmmmmmmmmmm...
Hey Turlenest! what's with the accident history on Korean Airlines? Every airline has had an accident, anyone can dig up a history on an airline.
Date: 20/12/1936
Location: Rice Canyon, Newhall, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-2
Fatalities: 12
Details: Crashed into a mountain
Date: 24/10/1947
Location: Bryce Canyon, Utah, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6
Fatalities: 52
Details: Onboard fire
Date: 17/06/1948
Location: Mount Carmel, USA,
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6
Fatalities: 43
Details: Onboard fire
Date: 24/08/1951
Location: Oakland USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6B
Fatalities: 50
Details: Hit a Hill
Date: 06/10/1955
Location: Medicine Bow Peak, Laramie, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-4
Fatalities: 66
Details: Crashed into a mountain
Date: 01/11/1955
Location: Denver, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6B
Fatalities: 44
Details: Mid air bomb
Date: 30/06/1956
Location: Grand Canyon, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-7
Fatalities: 128
Details: mid air collision
Date: 21/04/1958
Location: Sloan, Las Vegas, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-7
Fatalities: 47
Details: mid air collision
Date: 16/12/1960
Location: New York, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-8-11
Fatalities: 134
Details: mid air collision
Date: 11/07/1961
Location: Denver, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-8
Fatalities: 17
Details: crashed on landing
Date: 23/11/1962
Location: Ellicott City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: Vickers Viscount 745D
Fatalities: 18
Details: bird strike
Date: 09/07/1964
Location: Parrotts Ville,USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: Vickers Viscount 745D
Fatalities: 39
Details: onboard fire
Date: 16/08/1965
Location: Chicago,USA
Airline: United AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727-22
Fatalities: 30
Details: crashed into a lake
Date: 11/11/1965
Location: Salt Lake City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727
Fatalities: 41
Details: crashed on landing
Date: 18/01/1965
Location: Los Angeles
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727
Fatalities: 38
Details: crashed into ocean
Date: 18/01/1969
Location: Chicago, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 737-222
Fatalities: 61
Details: crashed on landing
Date: 13/04/1988
Location: Hennenman, South Africa
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-3
Fatalities: 24
Details: fuel pump fire
Date: 24/02/1989
Location: Hawaii, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 747
Fatalities: 9
Details: cargo door separation
Date: 19/07/1989
Location: Suix City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-10
Fatalities: 111
Details: hydraulic-engine failure
Date: 03/03/1991
Location: Colorado Springs
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 737
Fatalities: 25
Details: on landing approach.
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: lightspeed ]
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Invaribly or invariably,
Why didn't you write on your first post that your father is a captain at KAL? Certainly he, and Delta's report, could tell you more than any other pprune-mate. A major accident can happen to any airline, Asian or Western, but it doesn't mean that the system or the airline is unsafe. However, large hull losses within few years...No Way!!! something is wrong.
lomapaseo and Asiana Captin,
Safety audit and penalties are based on Civil Aviation Authority and include direct or indirect participants. So, beside KAL and Asiana tell me other major Korean airline that goes to the USA and was under FAA supervision?
Captin Asiana,
Do you really believe that Boeing would agree to hide the real story and accept its fault on TWA's crash? How can a lot of investigators, suppliers, rescuers, etc, tell the same lie forever? Based on your imagination, likely KAL007 was under a secret mission....
You are not totally wrong when you say that many airlines had major accidents (and KAL some bizarres), but you can't deny that CRM, well let's update it, Team Resource Management must be improved in your enviroment. I don't know if you've already flown a commercial airline before joining Asiana, if not, do you believe that a pilot with only 10 years has enough experience to fly, as a skipper, a B744? And if a 10-year employee is a B744 captain, how long does an Asiana pilot take to command a narrow body? 2 or 3 years, maybe, and you don't think that Korea must improve its aviation safety....
I'm not American and in my opinion the airplane wasn't created by them (thank you Santos Dumont!) as they try to impose. But we need to agree that it's much better to fly a Boeing airplane than probably a Hyundai 747...
Turtlenest,
Add one more accident to your data base: A B747F at Stansted, 12/22/99.
767Driver
After reading your posts and Delta's report I've an opinion, and I don't know if you can understand me, maybe one day you will:
Todopilotocoreanoézémané.
Regards, folks....
Why didn't you write on your first post that your father is a captain at KAL? Certainly he, and Delta's report, could tell you more than any other pprune-mate. A major accident can happen to any airline, Asian or Western, but it doesn't mean that the system or the airline is unsafe. However, large hull losses within few years...No Way!!! something is wrong.
lomapaseo and Asiana Captin,
Safety audit and penalties are based on Civil Aviation Authority and include direct or indirect participants. So, beside KAL and Asiana tell me other major Korean airline that goes to the USA and was under FAA supervision?
Captin Asiana,
Do you really believe that Boeing would agree to hide the real story and accept its fault on TWA's crash? How can a lot of investigators, suppliers, rescuers, etc, tell the same lie forever? Based on your imagination, likely KAL007 was under a secret mission....
You are not totally wrong when you say that many airlines had major accidents (and KAL some bizarres), but you can't deny that CRM, well let's update it, Team Resource Management must be improved in your enviroment. I don't know if you've already flown a commercial airline before joining Asiana, if not, do you believe that a pilot with only 10 years has enough experience to fly, as a skipper, a B744? And if a 10-year employee is a B744 captain, how long does an Asiana pilot take to command a narrow body? 2 or 3 years, maybe, and you don't think that Korea must improve its aviation safety....
I'm not American and in my opinion the airplane wasn't created by them (thank you Santos Dumont!) as they try to impose. But we need to agree that it's much better to fly a Boeing airplane than probably a Hyundai 747...
Turtlenest,
Add one more accident to your data base: A B747F at Stansted, 12/22/99.
767Driver
After reading your posts and Delta's report I've an opinion, and I don't know if you can understand me, maybe one day you will:
Todopilotocoreanoézémané.
Regards, folks....
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THE DELTA REPORT YOU ALL SO FREQUENTLY REFER TO IS NOT NOT ( I REPEAT NOT) A REPORT FROM DELTA.
It is the observations and submission of ONE of many auditors. The individual concerned had NO involvement in check and training before or since. Caveat Emptor
It is the observations and submission of ONE of many auditors. The individual concerned had NO involvement in check and training before or since. Caveat Emptor
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LS, I hate to state the obvious, United has been in business about 40 years longer than KAL, with a fleet about 6 times the size of KAL, and with about 10 times as many departures per day. All airlines do have accidents/incidents, however, for KAL's size, it is off the charts!
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lightspeed,
It seems like you maybe got an extra accident report on United Airlines:
<<Date: 13/04/1988
Location: Hennenman, South Africa
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-3
Fatalities: 24
Details: fuel pump fire>>
Lets give credit where credit is due...
It seems like you maybe got an extra accident report on United Airlines:
<<Date: 13/04/1988
Location: Hennenman, South Africa
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-3
Fatalities: 24
Details: fuel pump fire>>
Lets give credit where credit is due...
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While working in Seoul with Korean pilots and airline ops staff, I couldn't quite put my finger on just what it was that caused me so much concern for operation I was involved with. After a while it struck me that, at least with the folks I was with, there was no 'culture of aviation'. What I mean by that is, in the US and Europe we have lived with aviation for most of our lives, safety is ingrained and the rules for the operation of aircraft are understood and the risks if we don't .
In Korea this understanding/culture was lacking at a very basic level. I hope that it has improved in the past 6 years or so.
In Korea this understanding/culture was lacking at a very basic level. I hope that it has improved in the past 6 years or so.
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Bokomoko
I'll try to figure out what you meant...I guess I have already a good idea!...
It is funny to see korean F/O way to do things: all of them uses note books (and even captains, for that matter...) filled with LOTS of colourfull writing in an interesting mixing of Korean an English language. These material contents information
that it seems they are incapable to handle on each flight by the standard means.
There are interesting stories of foreign captains that just take the notebook away of the F/O and said: - "just flight with the authorized manuals and publications!".
The poor guys usually become so frightened and desperate, incapable of perform their duties...
It seems that all their habilities are contained on that few manuscript pages.
I'll try to figure out what you meant...I guess I have already a good idea!...
It is funny to see korean F/O way to do things: all of them uses note books (and even captains, for that matter...) filled with LOTS of colourfull writing in an interesting mixing of Korean an English language. These material contents information
that it seems they are incapable to handle on each flight by the standard means.
There are interesting stories of foreign captains that just take the notebook away of the F/O and said: - "just flight with the authorized manuals and publications!".
The poor guys usually become so frightened and desperate, incapable of perform their duties...
It seems that all their habilities are contained on that few manuscript pages.
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Your post was removed because it entirely consisted of abuse and swearing directed at 3 specific writers on this thread.
Additionally you seem to be very confused as to whether you are the deeply respected line pilot and trainee psychiatrist named Invaribly or the equally impressive new polymath 7474.
As and until you become more comfortable with your variant of Munchausen's by Proxy disorder it's probably best you stick to more suitable sites.
I believe Crayola do a particularly good one.
Rob
[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
Additionally you seem to be very confused as to whether you are the deeply respected line pilot and trainee psychiatrist named Invaribly or the equally impressive new polymath 7474.
As and until you become more comfortable with your variant of Munchausen's by Proxy disorder it's probably best you stick to more suitable sites.
I believe Crayola do a particularly good one.
Rob
[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
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South Korea is an admirable country, with great achievements on all fields.
Their people are generally lovely and friendly.
So it is difficult to understand the reasons for their Civil Aviation being so recklessly mismanaged, leading to a so low safety level.
All the bare facts demonstrated on this posts are producing purely emotional/personnal reactions that just emphasize the fact that things are going havoc over there. Congratulations to PPrune in filtering abusive and offensive posts.
Let's focus on training and evaluation.
It is becoming harder and harder for them to recruit really qualified professionals, as local competent captains are on short supply.
For instance, Asiana evaluation criteria is virtually non existent: several highly qualified (more than 10,000 hr PIC) captains are usually failed by local checkpilots with less than half the foreign captain airline experience, for no consistent reason.
And this after undergoing 2, 3 months of "training" with local captains with good records from them.
This high failure rate is not related to technical standards. It is a merely political move: they either try to demonstrate that their standard is so high that only a few can pass... or a move by their union against airline top management.
A friend of mine, an excellent professional by all means, tried to help his partner, another foreign captain, on simulator checkride. His partner performance on sim was being consistently below average, so the guy was really nervous on checkride.
You know what? The Korean checkpilot elected (on a disguise way, of course) my friend as an enemy and went after him, from that day on, writing fallacious checkrides reports.
Yes, he requested to do my friends next route check...
The results: my friend was fired after 4 months and his partner, the less skilled pilot, got the job...
Unfortunately, lack of character is equally spread among all nationalities.
One of the most frightening checkpilots, few years ago, just forget to close his side window, on his route training with a foreign instructor. He had to close it in flight.
Now he is the almighty checkpilot, with the highest failure rate...
And it is a part of local culture NOT SHOWING checkride notes upon finishing it. But checkpilots does not have an idea of what the word ethics is all about: they consider reasonable do any comments about someone else's checkride to anyone they whants. True or not.
As these situations are happening on regular basis only few people are daring to apply to a so deceptive outfit, as the more year around Parc and others advertising proves.
Asiana is so desperate that they ultimately got a bunch of eastern europeans for the 767. The problem is this pilots ARE NOT type rated and some are not even current on any type! They took this guys paying a peanuts salary in order to "build" captains from scratch. It is a complete nonsensical madness. There is no substitute for experience, it is an old saying known since Wright Bros or Santos Dumont. But they ignore it (see the 747-400 skipper with less than 10 years airline experience on this thread).
It is an open question what local media or insurance companies think on this regard.
Bear in mind that these poor european guys have no alternatives, as their airlines are bankrupted. So they would be on their knees for all that, say, exoctic local way of training and evaluating. With all that shouting, cursing and even beating...
Their people are generally lovely and friendly.
So it is difficult to understand the reasons for their Civil Aviation being so recklessly mismanaged, leading to a so low safety level.
All the bare facts demonstrated on this posts are producing purely emotional/personnal reactions that just emphasize the fact that things are going havoc over there. Congratulations to PPrune in filtering abusive and offensive posts.
Let's focus on training and evaluation.
It is becoming harder and harder for them to recruit really qualified professionals, as local competent captains are on short supply.
For instance, Asiana evaluation criteria is virtually non existent: several highly qualified (more than 10,000 hr PIC) captains are usually failed by local checkpilots with less than half the foreign captain airline experience, for no consistent reason.
And this after undergoing 2, 3 months of "training" with local captains with good records from them.
This high failure rate is not related to technical standards. It is a merely political move: they either try to demonstrate that their standard is so high that only a few can pass... or a move by their union against airline top management.
A friend of mine, an excellent professional by all means, tried to help his partner, another foreign captain, on simulator checkride. His partner performance on sim was being consistently below average, so the guy was really nervous on checkride.
You know what? The Korean checkpilot elected (on a disguise way, of course) my friend as an enemy and went after him, from that day on, writing fallacious checkrides reports.
Yes, he requested to do my friends next route check...
The results: my friend was fired after 4 months and his partner, the less skilled pilot, got the job...
Unfortunately, lack of character is equally spread among all nationalities.
One of the most frightening checkpilots, few years ago, just forget to close his side window, on his route training with a foreign instructor. He had to close it in flight.
Now he is the almighty checkpilot, with the highest failure rate...
And it is a part of local culture NOT SHOWING checkride notes upon finishing it. But checkpilots does not have an idea of what the word ethics is all about: they consider reasonable do any comments about someone else's checkride to anyone they whants. True or not.
As these situations are happening on regular basis only few people are daring to apply to a so deceptive outfit, as the more year around Parc and others advertising proves.
Asiana is so desperate that they ultimately got a bunch of eastern europeans for the 767. The problem is this pilots ARE NOT type rated and some are not even current on any type! They took this guys paying a peanuts salary in order to "build" captains from scratch. It is a complete nonsensical madness. There is no substitute for experience, it is an old saying known since Wright Bros or Santos Dumont. But they ignore it (see the 747-400 skipper with less than 10 years airline experience on this thread).
It is an open question what local media or insurance companies think on this regard.
Bear in mind that these poor european guys have no alternatives, as their airlines are bankrupted. So they would be on their knees for all that, say, exoctic local way of training and evaluating. With all that shouting, cursing and even beating...
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Further to my previous post on KAL's dodgy operations. A number of -400 drivers from Canadian opted to go to KAL in 1998. All were canned one way or another. They didnt resign because if they did they had to pay KAL US$10000 I believe was the sum. All were fired or failed. Something to do with what is called the military mafia. The technical exam was written in such poor english that I got the impression it was designed to fail those that sat it. Stay away from KAL. I think their union has taken care of that anyway. Written in the contract: "The mission must be accomplished". i.e. dont divert or else
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
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To 767driver.
I wonder why you are so angry about KAL and ASIANA. I don't know how much time you spend with us. but The more I read your post , The more I feel your hate to us.
Maybe, maybe.... you have enough reason to do that . But isn't it a little bit too much?
one thing I wanna mention for your message about getting rid of foreign pilot in KAL and ASIANA is that it is not because of racial standard or safety excuse.
- and who the hell dose tell you ASIANA and KAL pilots want that? -
you are a 767 driver. so mabe you have been working for asiana cause KAL doesn't have 767 fleet.
It is because of company's double standard.
company gives you more than twice of money than korean(Not only for KAL) pilots get. but korean pilot fly more than twice time than you fly.
and there is problem.
do you think it is fair?
If we got same money and same working condition, who would say anything against that?
you might see lot of creepy checker. but me too. because he is the same guy!. it's not because he specially don't like foreigners.
and about small note book.
If it is useful, why don't we use them?
did you say that the first officer get scared because the GREAT CAPTAIN took out that note?
Oh, snap out of it!
I wonder if the GREAT CAPTAIN was out of his mind. If he was a really good captain, why he did such a thing? do you think it is good to scare your f/o in such a way before flight?
Even If it was a tranning flight, and If I were IP, I would rather tell him "don't take your note, the best source is your chart" in debriefing after flight.
I have seen lots of student bring culculator and use them. In the same manner, the note it is just easy tool not a bible. I don't think they can't fly well without note like what you tried to say.
I wish you could speak korean well. then you can say what you hate and what is your wish easily to korean pilot.
but unfortunately, I have seen only one mexican captain who tried to learn Korean language in propessonal language school until now.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: benedictus ]
I wonder why you are so angry about KAL and ASIANA. I don't know how much time you spend with us. but The more I read your post , The more I feel your hate to us.
Maybe, maybe.... you have enough reason to do that . But isn't it a little bit too much?
one thing I wanna mention for your message about getting rid of foreign pilot in KAL and ASIANA is that it is not because of racial standard or safety excuse.
- and who the hell dose tell you ASIANA and KAL pilots want that? -
you are a 767 driver. so mabe you have been working for asiana cause KAL doesn't have 767 fleet.
It is because of company's double standard.
company gives you more than twice of money than korean(Not only for KAL) pilots get. but korean pilot fly more than twice time than you fly.
and there is problem.
do you think it is fair?
If we got same money and same working condition, who would say anything against that?
you might see lot of creepy checker. but me too. because he is the same guy!. it's not because he specially don't like foreigners.
and about small note book.
If it is useful, why don't we use them?
did you say that the first officer get scared because the GREAT CAPTAIN took out that note?
Oh, snap out of it!
I wonder if the GREAT CAPTAIN was out of his mind. If he was a really good captain, why he did such a thing? do you think it is good to scare your f/o in such a way before flight?
Even If it was a tranning flight, and If I were IP, I would rather tell him "don't take your note, the best source is your chart" in debriefing after flight.
I have seen lots of student bring culculator and use them. In the same manner, the note it is just easy tool not a bible. I don't think they can't fly well without note like what you tried to say.
I wish you could speak korean well. then you can say what you hate and what is your wish easily to korean pilot.
but unfortunately, I have seen only one mexican captain who tried to learn Korean language in propessonal language school until now.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: benedictus ]
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Dear Benedictus,
It is quite overwhelming that so many korean pilots register on this board with the only purpose to defend their airline or do personal attacks. Even though these airlines pay half the locals as much as foreigners.
But you, as many others who try to deny posts that focus on the big and serious problems korean air transport industry is undergoing, fail to get the big picture.
I say again: unless korean aviation managers and authorithies look seriously at these questions and mismanagements we'll see korean carriers making headlines again.
It is not foreign pilots fault to get more money than locals. It is just a way to atract them to a so different (and harsh) professional environment. With all the unfair, unpredictable way to do things. And because locals present a lot of inadequacy and lack of experience.
But, to be completely sincere, I do not think Korea will ever enjoy an advanced, modern, friendly and CRM oriented air transport professional environment, for the unique reason their cultural constraints will preclude the development of the adequate mentality a modern jet transport cockpit requires. And this have nothing to do with korean language abilities...
Oh, yes, that story 767 driver told about korean pilots notebooks is absolutely real. It is a clear demonstration of their inadequacy regarding english language management and good classroom preparation.
Finally, I think the main purpose of all this board is to warn prospective applicants about what they would be getting in Korea, at what price and at what risk.
It is quite overwhelming that so many korean pilots register on this board with the only purpose to defend their airline or do personal attacks. Even though these airlines pay half the locals as much as foreigners.
But you, as many others who try to deny posts that focus on the big and serious problems korean air transport industry is undergoing, fail to get the big picture.
I say again: unless korean aviation managers and authorithies look seriously at these questions and mismanagements we'll see korean carriers making headlines again.
It is not foreign pilots fault to get more money than locals. It is just a way to atract them to a so different (and harsh) professional environment. With all the unfair, unpredictable way to do things. And because locals present a lot of inadequacy and lack of experience.
But, to be completely sincere, I do not think Korea will ever enjoy an advanced, modern, friendly and CRM oriented air transport professional environment, for the unique reason their cultural constraints will preclude the development of the adequate mentality a modern jet transport cockpit requires. And this have nothing to do with korean language abilities...
Oh, yes, that story 767 driver told about korean pilots notebooks is absolutely real. It is a clear demonstration of their inadequacy regarding english language management and good classroom preparation.
Finally, I think the main purpose of all this board is to warn prospective applicants about what they would be getting in Korea, at what price and at what risk.
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Benedictus,
I must take you to task. You claim that foreign pilots earn more than twice what Korean pilots do. What you conveniently omit is that there other payments to Korean pilots that are not paid to foreign captains. I refer specifically to education allowances. Overtime payments are also calculated in a much more favourable way for Korean pilots.
Total cost to KAL for a foreign captain is very similar to the total cost for a Korean captain.
I must take you to task. You claim that foreign pilots earn more than twice what Korean pilots do. What you conveniently omit is that there other payments to Korean pilots that are not paid to foreign captains. I refer specifically to education allowances. Overtime payments are also calculated in a much more favourable way for Korean pilots.
Total cost to KAL for a foreign captain is very similar to the total cost for a Korean captain.