BALPA withdraw from Open Skies Court Case
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Jetstar(openskies) reality
The dust has hardly settled on the BALPA withdrawl and Qantas is off with Jetstar, this is of course what will happen to Openskies and BA. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/...653885968.html
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Thanks Devellish for your post. I am not going to agree or disagree with you. I just hope that your antagonists can come up with a posting as well written and unemotional as yours. It would do this forum much good.
I have been followoing this debate for months now and still it is not exactly clear as to why Open Skies is so bad to us all. And once I saw the word scab being used I really lost all interest. What rests now is the question: was this afair necessary?
On the other corner of the BALPA room there are companies that have 10 or more different contracts for the same pilot workforce, one contract for every EU-country and other things far more immediately threatening than Open Skies. I wish issues like these would get as much attention from BALPA HQ.
I have been followoing this debate for months now and still it is not exactly clear as to why Open Skies is so bad to us all. And once I saw the word scab being used I really lost all interest. What rests now is the question: was this afair necessary?
On the other corner of the BALPA room there are companies that have 10 or more different contracts for the same pilot workforce, one contract for every EU-country and other things far more immediately threatening than Open Skies. I wish issues like these would get as much attention from BALPA HQ.
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We have been asking this all the time. Like in the forum: Do the BA pilots really deserve our support?
It is no simple pro or con. BA is my competition. OS is an opportunity. And BALPA is there for us all!
It is no simple pro or con. BA is my competition. OS is an opportunity. And BALPA is there for us all!
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Penko;
"BALPA is there for all". Should be; wonder if it's true. I don't want to open that old chesnut, but it does crop up very often.
Now, this open skies thing is there for everyone. I hear Air France are opening routes out of LHR. What is happening elsewhere? Prune is open to all the worlds pilots & unions. Why is this topic only under a BALPA umbrella? What are the Frenchies saying, & the Germans etc. Is it only the entrenched dinasaurial Brits who are knashing teeth? Are the yanks throwing toys out of the pram? Lets hear a rounded debate from all sides, not this one sided "if I can't play I'm taking my ball home" attitude. The ghosts of Dan Air, B.Cal & Laker lurk in the shadows.
"BALPA is there for all". Should be; wonder if it's true. I don't want to open that old chesnut, but it does crop up very often.
Now, this open skies thing is there for everyone. I hear Air France are opening routes out of LHR. What is happening elsewhere? Prune is open to all the worlds pilots & unions. Why is this topic only under a BALPA umbrella? What are the Frenchies saying, & the Germans etc. Is it only the entrenched dinasaurial Brits who are knashing teeth? Are the yanks throwing toys out of the pram? Lets hear a rounded debate from all sides, not this one sided "if I can't play I'm taking my ball home" attitude. The ghosts of Dan Air, B.Cal & Laker lurk in the shadows.
RAT 5 - fair question, what are the "Frenchies" and the American's doing?
Well, the "Frenchies" seem to have their LHR-US operation up and running using mainline crews on presumably mainline T&Cs..no knashing of teeth there.
The US Carriers have yet to start operating US-Europe with non-US labor - I guess we might hear a little knashing of teeth when that gets proposed
Nope, only good old BA, so far, have proposed to exploit Open Skies by recruiting workforce for a parallel operation on lower T&Cs than Mainline.
BA BALPA have negotiated succesfully with the Company over recent years over issues such as Pensions ( I was one of the many who took a hit) and scheduling arrangements...hardly an entrenched workforce. On the other hand BALPA asked for the Openskies pilots to be put on the Master Seniority List and all hell lets loose - who's the Dinosaur, who's entrenched?
Now BALPA may well have handled this badly, and/or had bad advice - we don't know yet, but remember BA management is still trying to sue BALPA for damaging it's reputation by threatening Industrial Action. Remind me again who were the clowns that brought you the public relations disaster known as T5, BALPA or management?
Is it any wonder teeth are knashing?
Well, the "Frenchies" seem to have their LHR-US operation up and running using mainline crews on presumably mainline T&Cs..no knashing of teeth there.
The US Carriers have yet to start operating US-Europe with non-US labor - I guess we might hear a little knashing of teeth when that gets proposed
Nope, only good old BA, so far, have proposed to exploit Open Skies by recruiting workforce for a parallel operation on lower T&Cs than Mainline.
BA BALPA have negotiated succesfully with the Company over recent years over issues such as Pensions ( I was one of the many who took a hit) and scheduling arrangements...hardly an entrenched workforce. On the other hand BALPA asked for the Openskies pilots to be put on the Master Seniority List and all hell lets loose - who's the Dinosaur, who's entrenched?
Now BALPA may well have handled this badly, and/or had bad advice - we don't know yet, but remember BA management is still trying to sue BALPA for damaging it's reputation by threatening Industrial Action. Remind me again who were the clowns that brought you the public relations disaster known as T5, BALPA or management?
Is it any wonder teeth are knashing?
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@ RAT 5,
AF & KLM are already operating routes out of LHR.
However the model is different to BA's. USA/LHR flights for AF-KLM are being operated under codeshare by the Skyteam Alliance Partners Delta & Northwest. AF and KLM gave up existing LHR slots for use by these airlines.
From a business point of view, seems like a good model,.... the partner airlines carry most of the risk, but AF-KLM reaps a healthy percentage of the generated revenue.
From a union / labour relations point of view, there has not been much of a public reaction by the unions (well, in KLM at least).........usually because the union will have obtained some other concessions in exchange for agreeing to the proposal.
As an aside, I sometimes wonder why it is that LH, AF, KLM etc do not seem to be itching to start up operations in each others backyards, e.g LH in Paris, or AF-KLM in Frankfurt, but all seem to want a slice of LHR. The premium business traffic is an obvious answer, but if all the premium traffic worth fighting for is concentrated at LHR, should BA not be fighting to protect this rather than spread itself thin competing on many fronts?
I hear Air France are opening routes out of LHR
However the model is different to BA's. USA/LHR flights for AF-KLM are being operated under codeshare by the Skyteam Alliance Partners Delta & Northwest. AF and KLM gave up existing LHR slots for use by these airlines.
From a business point of view, seems like a good model,.... the partner airlines carry most of the risk, but AF-KLM reaps a healthy percentage of the generated revenue.
From a union / labour relations point of view, there has not been much of a public reaction by the unions (well, in KLM at least).........usually because the union will have obtained some other concessions in exchange for agreeing to the proposal.
As an aside, I sometimes wonder why it is that LH, AF, KLM etc do not seem to be itching to start up operations in each others backyards, e.g LH in Paris, or AF-KLM in Frankfurt, but all seem to want a slice of LHR. The premium business traffic is an obvious answer, but if all the premium traffic worth fighting for is concentrated at LHR, should BA not be fighting to protect this rather than spread itself thin competing on many fronts?
Ray,
I was under the impression that AF were operating LHR- JFK with one of their own 747's/777's rather than codeshare.
Edited to add - I stand slightly corrected, AF operate LHR-LAX, the others are indeed code share.
I was under the impression that AF were operating LHR- JFK with one of their own 747's/777's rather than codeshare.
Edited to add - I stand slightly corrected, AF operate LHR-LAX, the others are indeed code share.
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411A
Excellent posts. My compliments.
That BA pilots thought that they could pick this fight and win shows a remarkable lack of awareness and understanding of the present climate.
But that is par, going on the last thirty years of Balpa activity.
This is however just the start. Expect more of the same and good luck to open skies. Can you imagine sitting next to some of the authors of these pro strike posts.
Koi has fresh tissues available for tears of laughter. Call me.
Now watch how fuel and salaries shapes our real world.
Koi.
Excellent posts. My compliments.
That BA pilots thought that they could pick this fight and win shows a remarkable lack of awareness and understanding of the present climate.
But that is par, going on the last thirty years of Balpa activity.
This is however just the start. Expect more of the same and good luck to open skies. Can you imagine sitting next to some of the authors of these pro strike posts.
Koi has fresh tissues available for tears of laughter. Call me.
Now watch how fuel and salaries shapes our real world.
Koi.
Controversial, moi?
Devellish, to answer your points:
You are rather simplifying the issue. If one accepts that responsible representation through a trade union is desirable then it would seem prudent to develop a sound working relationship with that union. Recent examples of where BA and BALPA have had such a relationship and where it has paid dividends were the recent changes regarding the pension deficit and work coverage problems. The pilot group are not a bunch of ignorant sheep wanting their way at all costs a la 1970s miners/printers/car workers, etc. The changes to pensions and our bidding system were fiercely opposed by many but successful agreement, despite many unpalatable changes, was reached. Result company problem(s) resolved and pilots accepting of the solutions.
With OpenLies BALPA first asked to discuss the issue formally with the company at the beginning of 2007. The company flatly refused. Eventually late last year discussions did take place. After much talking what it boiled down to was that the company wanted OpenLies to operate entirely separately from BA Mainline.......except for engineering, marketing, ticketing, management and, of course, financing. BALPA agreed to proposed Ts & Cs but nope, BA pilots were to be completely excluded. Now why can that be?
The management have given 'assurances' that BA mainline Ts & Cs were not going to be affected. Having been in BA for some considerable number of years I have heard assurances before. They are valid until the next business plan or change of management. If OpenLIes was just going to remain a small operation then fine but I would place good money that the long term plan is to expand OpenLies and gradually shift BA business across - new aeroplanes, new routes - and let BA mainline stagnate. It has happened in Australia and it has happened in America. If BA's assurances were to be believed then they would surely have nothing to fear from a common seniority list would they? If OpenLies is a roaring success then BALPA would be foolish to start making unrealistic demands to the point of making the operation unprofitable, that would be no use to anybody. BALPA does not have a history of doing do so either e.g. LGW.
So what was BALPA supposed to do? Say OK BA we believe you or ask for what we considered was a no cost guarantee against future shafting i.e. a common seniority list?
Striking is a complete anathema to me and I suspect the majority of my colleagues but I learned the hard way long ago that if I do not stand up for myself it is certain that I will be taken advantage of. BALPA exhausted every possible opportunity to resolve the issue and BA's parting shot at the end of the ACAS conciliation was that if BALPA announce a strike BA would sue. Now who was threatening whom?
The full story leading up to the withdrawal from the court case has not been publicised yet but we are waiting with interest to learn how we ended up in such a humiliating and costly mess.
The TUC are holding a seminar very shortly on the whole Article 43 ruling in the Viking and Laval case because it will certainly be challenged and most likely overturned eventually because it is a plain misuse of the legislation for it to be used to prevent lawful industrial protest when it was designed to prevent anti-competitive behaviour.
The one thing BA has achieved is a unified, angry and disgruntled workforce. A masterpiece of modern industrial relations by BA whether you despise unions or not. It will come back to bite Willie Walsh and big time too.
Knowing many of the individuals involved I do not believe that and, like yourself, await the details of what happened with interest. I shall be the first to complain if what you say is true.
No that was started by the likes of Mr. O'Leary and Willie Walsh with OpenLies.
Good for who? Certainly not pilots. Seniority has been debated to death. As we all have precisely the same qualifications then how does one promote? The person who carries least fuel? The person who is prepared to carry the most defects? I worked for a company many moons ago where an individual would eventually be sacked if they put too many defects in the tech. log especially if that defect would ground an aeroplane. Too much payload? We had to make a deliberate error in the loadsheet to bring the figures within limits. Don't like it? F... off and get another job then. I kid you not. That is what happens in airlines without seniority and without unions.
Smacks of socialism to me. What is overlooked that the bottom rates of pay are still good and that 99% of people look forward to and will reach the giddy heights. I am open to persuasion on a more equitable system but I bet that over a career an individual would earn less. My pal worked long and hard for poor money before he reached the lucrative years of his profession - consultant in his branch of medicine. Very similar to pilots and seniority.
Ah yes, the bonus. Well without boring everybody to death. The management bonus was based on profitablity but the average employee's bonus was also linked to....wait for it......punctuality! Managers have done very nicely thank you. Employees will also receive a bonus but, although I am sure we are all grateful, it pales into insignificance when compared to a manager's bonus and has conditions attached which made a sizeable payout as likely as winning the lottery! Personally I think bonuses are a debatable issue anyway but that is another argument.
I cannot argue with your first assertion and looking back to when we (pilots) took a pay cut during the first Gulf war I do not believe we can be accused of being unaware or unrealistic regarding the company's finances. We also made changes to our terms to finance the engineers severance package after the grounding of the B747 Classic following the September 11th atrocity.
I agree but BALPA was not making 'mental demands'.
It made me squirm a little too! However Willie Walsh's track record is not good on the industrial relations front. But then he was a former union leader so perhaps that is where he learnt to be so unreasonable.
BA Technical and training management are, on the whole, well respected by the pilots. The rest of BA's management are held in utter contempt. If you had witnessed and experienced them from the inside you may well agree. Lord King/Virgin case, fuel surcharge cartel, T5 to name but three of the disgraceful and embarrassing ways some of our managers have behaved.
This whole issue of standards to which you allude arose because BA, during the OpenLies, talks said that OpenLies pilots would not be allowed to automatically join mainline, they would have to go through the whole application process because 'they had been recruited to a different standard'. It was not BALPA or BA pilots who alleged that OpenLies pilots were in some way inferior but BA management.
Having seen the OpenLies contract I am amazed anybody would want to take a job with them.
My apologies for the length of post.
Imagine you were running a huge multi billion dollar business that was very profitable. One day after years of 'cordial' relations and many discussions a union comes along ands asks for one big thing (let's call it all pilots on one seniority list) or else they'll ballot their members to strike.
It sounds a lot like holding you to ransom but nevertheless you seek to reassure. You state that there is no threat.
Despite all of this the position remains 'give us this or we'll strike'.
That is a pure, unmitigated threat. As a negotiator you have no place to go to meet halfway. Whichever way you cut it one side wins and one side loses.
It sounds a lot like holding you to ransom but nevertheless you seek to reassure. You state that there is no threat.
Despite all of this the position remains 'give us this or we'll strike'.
That is a pure, unmitigated threat. As a negotiator you have no place to go to meet halfway. Whichever way you cut it one side wins and one side loses.
With OpenLies BALPA first asked to discuss the issue formally with the company at the beginning of 2007. The company flatly refused. Eventually late last year discussions did take place. After much talking what it boiled down to was that the company wanted OpenLies to operate entirely separately from BA Mainline.......except for engineering, marketing, ticketing, management and, of course, financing. BALPA agreed to proposed Ts & Cs but nope, BA pilots were to be completely excluded. Now why can that be?
The management have given 'assurances' that BA mainline Ts & Cs were not going to be affected. Having been in BA for some considerable number of years I have heard assurances before. They are valid until the next business plan or change of management. If OpenLIes was just going to remain a small operation then fine but I would place good money that the long term plan is to expand OpenLies and gradually shift BA business across - new aeroplanes, new routes - and let BA mainline stagnate. It has happened in Australia and it has happened in America. If BA's assurances were to be believed then they would surely have nothing to fear from a common seniority list would they? If OpenLies is a roaring success then BALPA would be foolish to start making unrealistic demands to the point of making the operation unprofitable, that would be no use to anybody. BALPA does not have a history of doing do so either e.g. LGW.
So what was BALPA supposed to do? Say OK BA we believe you or ask for what we considered was a no cost guarantee against future shafting i.e. a common seniority list?
Striking is a complete anathema to me and I suspect the majority of my colleagues but I learned the hard way long ago that if I do not stand up for myself it is certain that I will be taken advantage of. BALPA exhausted every possible opportunity to resolve the issue and BA's parting shot at the end of the ACAS conciliation was that if BALPA announce a strike BA would sue. Now who was threatening whom?
The full story leading up to the withdrawal from the court case has not been publicised yet but we are waiting with interest to learn how we ended up in such a humiliating and costly mess.
The TUC are holding a seminar very shortly on the whole Article 43 ruling in the Viking and Laval case because it will certainly be challenged and most likely overturned eventually because it is a plain misuse of the legislation for it to be used to prevent lawful industrial protest when it was designed to prevent anti-competitive behaviour.
The one thing BA has achieved is a unified, angry and disgruntled workforce. A masterpiece of modern industrial relations by BA whether you despise unions or not. It will come back to bite Willie Walsh and big time too.
Pilots - your union has played fast and loose with your money. They have destroyed any credibilty they had as a moderate union
.... and have possibly started the unravelling of benchmark Ts and Cs.
In the longer term this may be a good thing - I know of only a handful of industries which still sustain seniority based systems.
And what does seniority get you? Well, it gives a mechanism to ensure that a wholly inequitable system of incremental pay that ensures that the very top earners can pull £145k whilst the bottom boys and girls barely breach £30k. On top of that there exists a whole host of other potentially discriminatory rules relating to bidding rights.
Out of this whole mad escapade you can take comfort from the following - by averting a strike BA allowed the employee bonus to be paid.
But look ahead - disaster looms for the sector as a whole and only the strong and flexible will survive. Your union does not pay your wages - most pilots I know would find it very tough to be poor and principled over paid and pragmatic. Perhaps it is time to start asking real questions about what it is that your Union is protecting? A system or your pay?
If BA had a poor Industrial Relations history then that is part of the mix. However, the onus is also on the union to avoid pitching up with utterly mental demands that leave the company no other option.
As for Jim McAusland making a 'well informed' plea to the City to unseat Willie - I nearly fell off my chair. There is very little investor sympathy towards any Union (nothing personal) but I think that even my mates can see through a deposition request from a Union that is in dispute with its CEO. It's a cold hard world.
BA pilots are - in general - wonderfully trained and well selected individuals. That is, of course, in part due to a whole bunch of systematic management policies and activity - it doesn't happen by magic. Managers have to agree that it is desirable, spend the money and manage the process. Pilots are a massive part of that but it seems astonishingly arrogant to suggest that BA Pilots are good despite their management.
BA is good because it is a good company (in a rubbish sector, by the way). What is also thunderingly arrogant is the notion that pilots from outside the airline (a pool which BA also draws from) are in some way inferior. What happens when a BA pilot is recruited? Do they walk through a smokey portal like on 'Stars in Their Eyes' to emerge as some form of Sky God? I think not - they benefit from training and environment that is supported by - guess who - British Airways PLC, not BALPA (although they appear to have a valuable contribution to training a technical).
- but I do not think that they are the industry-screwing force that BALPA claim... ...some airlines are asking pilots to PAY to be on the aircraft. Are OpenSkies doing that? Apparently not. Some airlines pay less than OpenSkies (quite a few looking at the figures here)....
My apologies for the length of post.
Last edited by M.Mouse; 26th May 2008 at 23:36.
Controversial, moi?
At the risk of sending everybody to sleep two further points from your last post Devillish:
A twenty year first officer in BA would be on a very comfortable salary, 75% of the equivalent pay point captain's salary. If Willie Walsh and Mr. O'Leary have their way 'well intentioned twentysomethings with a pocketful of debt and tat salaries ' will never be able to pay off their mortgages no matter how many years they work!
I try to keep myelf well informed on matters that affect me but I am unaware of that quote. Where did you read or see it?
Rat 5
Interesting point. When the beloved EU negotiated Open Skies with the Americans we allowed the Americans unfettered access and rights to fly with anywhere within the EU. The reciprocal (unfettered access in and around the USA) is supposed to happen in 2010. I will watch for that moment with great interest.
(I think my understanding of the Open Skies agreement is correct but stand to be corrected if not).
All the while the whole seniority debate is propped up by nice chunky salaries at the top with the added bonus of a final salary scheme to make the wait all worthwhile. Now there is a foul stench to this whole thing... How long will it be before the armies of well intentioned twentysomethings with a pocketful of debt and tat salaries start asking the bigger questions - like, 'how will I pay my mortgage?' or 'whoa, twenty years to command and a stagnant list!'
So back to BALPA and the BACC - The chairman of the BACC himself is on record as stating that he would '...seek equalisation of OS and BA terms and conditions after three years...' if the seniority lists were conjoined. I am presuming that he means to drag the Ts and Cs up rather than force BA pilots to take a pay cut.
Rat 5
Are the yanks throwing toys out of the pram?
(I think my understanding of the Open Skies agreement is correct but stand to be corrected if not).
Mr Mouse.
An excellent precis (
) of why we are where we are now. No doubt some will extract "sound bites" to throw back at you but I hope the majority will read it in full.
Rgds
Wiggy
An excellent precis (
) of why we are where we are now. No doubt some will extract "sound bites" to throw back at you but I hope the majority will read it in full.Rgds
Wiggy
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Open skies part II
M.Mouse I believe you are correct about open skies part II due in 2010. And I believe that the wager to palce at present is that the US administration will not allow full access to the USA by European airlines. In which has the agreement sees part I revoked. So after all this OpenSkies may only have 2 years to live. Perhaps Walsh knows better, but financial matters in the states seem to be dictating that US companies are retreating to their core business and being defensive.
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...but financial matters in the states seem to be dictating that US companies are retreating to their core business and being defensive.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Ah, blissful silence.
PC767,
You are correct. I believe by negotiating with AA and Continental with regard to anti-trust immunity, WW is currently hedging is bets in case Open Skies is shelved, despite him being the one to insist upon it's withdrawal if the Americans renege on Part 2 of the deal.
As things stand though, the US airline industry is in fairly dire straits and it's questionable whether or not Chapter 11 will either be permitted or sought again, which means unless the US government is going to allow some of the majors to die, they will need to allow further concessions to foreign ownership or part-wnership.
PC767,
You are correct. I believe by negotiating with AA and Continental with regard to anti-trust immunity, WW is currently hedging is bets in case Open Skies is shelved, despite him being the one to insist upon it's withdrawal if the Americans renege on Part 2 of the deal.
As things stand though, the US airline industry is in fairly dire straits and it's questionable whether or not Chapter 11 will either be permitted or sought again, which means unless the US government is going to allow some of the majors to die, they will need to allow further concessions to foreign ownership or part-wnership.
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Looking objectively...core business yes, but I think you will find that many will welcome investment from Europe (and likely to be allowed by the next administration) simply because European airlines seem to be able to make a profit and homegrown airlines...can't.
I did consider this and my question would be if US management cannot make money out of their companies then why would European management. As I understand US companies are actually more unionized than our own.
I did consider this and my question would be if US management cannot make money out of their companies then why would European management. As I understand US companies are actually more unionized than our own.
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BA management
For all those who think BA management are reasonable and respectful of their staff, maybe have a look at this latest scoop from the socialist worker newsaper.www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=14966