warm beer

Both pilots are not in the roster system, the FO was asked/told to resign. The captain is not being paid and the matter is with the union.

Both their company email addresses are no longer.

Crewing says they are no longer with the company.

TNT said they are no longer with the company.

C.O. as you know the company lawyers have told them not to speak about it.

alf5071h

If the company investigation did not look beyond the (obvious) conclusion that the crew violated procedures, then their action could be based on a false perception of the crew’s difficulties biased by hindsight. This accident and the company’s action is an example of the industry’s need to embrace human factors as illustrated by:-
“If you conclude that human error is the cause of the accident then start your investigation again.”
(I cannot be sure of the source of the quote but James Reason, Sidney Dekker, and Patrick Hudson come to mind).
If an operator was to heed the advice of these and similarly minded people in the industry, then an investigation which attempts to understand the crews foresight or lack of (at the time of the autopilot event), might determine an alternative and most relevant viewpoint.
This is not to say that the company’s conclusion would be any different, but it could be beneficial to the industry and the company’s image if this information (the basis of their action) were to be made public. It could for example provide understanding of how ‘a zero tolerance to accidents’ policy is actually implemented; with the information currently available it appears unlikely that it is i.a.w. the ICAO Guidelines on Safety Management.
The AAIB’s responsibilities under the ICAO convention (Annex 13) would not allow them to come to a conclusion which ‘apportions blame or liability’, only to state the facts and circumstances, and where necessary make recommendations. However, I hope that for the human factors issues the AAIB will be able to at least comment, speculatively if necessary, on the range of scenarios which they had considered.

Coconutty

Anyone "in the know" heard how and WHEN the aircraft is going to be moved from the end of R24 at BHX ?

( I guess it will probably have to be be broken up and taken away in chunks ).

It's been there apparantly abandoned since around 16th June - propped up on jacks .

That date was the start of the fishing season in the UK - or should that be "Hunting" Season

Anyway - Nearly 7 weeks - It's a wonder the locals haven't had the remaining wheels off it yet !

Clarence Oveur

warm beer, suffice to say I don't rely on hearsay or secondhand information. I don't get my information from crewing, but from a bit further down the office.

Without making any comment on whether the company have treated the crew fairly or not up to this point, I will say that there must be quite a few people on positions of responsibility, who are awaiting the final AAIB report with some trepidation. Or at least they should be.

warm beer

Or at least they should be.[/quote]

C.O. I agree what you say, but after what was said about the crew on the BRU-OST flight

Fried_Chicken

I see the local Decorators are currently in at Brum repainting the TNT B737 all white, has its future been sorted then?

FC

NutLoose

I believe you will find it is being repaired......... remember the gear is designed to come off and the engine to take the load in case of such incidents..

Codman

Could be quite a long wait. Apparently it sustained not inconsiderable damage whilst being moved.

Coconutty

.. aah yes, the underside of the engine cowling certainly did take the load on the final landing, then there's the engine itself which may be damaged from eating some of the grass at East Mids, but there's also all the additional impact damage caused when the gear separated - like to the wing, wing root, flaps, holed fuselage etc. PLUS any damage caused when it was dragged to its current location at the R24 open air Paint shop !

Didinlt someone post previously that the aircraft was valued at 17 million Euros, initial repair estimates being 14 million Euros, so it was likely to be a "Write off" ?

Avman

Plenty of yesterday's insurance write-offs flying in today's skies though, albeit most of them in South America or Africa.

Flap15Geardown

I noticed it the other day down to just a small triangle of orange over the wing. Does anyone know exactly what the damage is as I heard that the wing is now twisted as a result of it being dragged clear on the lowloader. Shouldn't the fuse bolts given way and released the engine before that kind of damage could occur?

sikeano

i was reading flight interational and there is an article about this incident the flight crew have been sacked from tnt
the company according to flight international reckons the pilots done a good job in landing the plane but were responsible for it to be in that shape in the first place

there is no justice in the world my thoughts to the sacked pilots

warm beer

TNT sacks Birmingham pilots

By David Kaminski-Morrow in London
Freight operator TNT Airways has fired the two pilots involved in the Boeing 737-300 landing accident at the UK's Birmingham airport in June, after concluding that human error played a central role in the event. The crew diverted to Birmingham after an aborted attempt to land at Nottingham East Midlands airport resulted in the 737's right main undercarriage being torn from the aircraft.
While TNT acknowledges that the crew demonstrated skill in recovering the damaged aircraft and making an ultimately successful emergency landing, they had been the "catalyst for the difficulty. It's with profound regret that we've taken this action," the company says. The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch is conducting an inquiry into the accident.

JW411

sikeano:

"there is no justice in the world"

So let's see if I've got this right. You reckon that if a crew screws up badly and wrecks an aircraft and then succeeds in landing the wreckage safely then they should not get fired?

If you can't get fired for this then what on earth CAN you get fired for? What sort of message would that send?

fox niner

JW411,

I agree. At a certain point it certainly is possible for a company to fire its pilots because they screwed up. However, I would have waited for the outcoming of all the findings of the AAIB.

After the report is out, TNT can fire them and present a solid motivation.

JW411

So you would keep them employed until the AAIB report is published in about two years time or so?

Why would you want to do that when the answers are probably already well known and no doubt the FDM revealed within hours.

I doubt that any reputable airline would even dream of firing a pilot unless they were absolutely sure of their grounds.

LD Max

It's probably not my place to say since I don't know the grounds of their dismissal, but I personally take a dim view of pilots being fired for an error unless there is a clear case of gross negligence. I think this can only come after a thorough investigation.

Does this imply, therefore, that BOTH pilots were negligent? The FDR would not record their thought processes. Does the fact that one pilot pressed the A/T disconnect mean he was grossly negligent or was it just a slip of the finger? If he was, how does that make the other pilot Grossly Negligent?

Maybe the fact that neither of them called a go-around makes them both grossly negligent... or is it a psychological facet of HP which would have caught many other fully competant pilots out?

Having made the committment in their own minds to Land, isn't it well known that a change of mind requires overwhelming evidence to contradict that decision? If the landing had been made safely, would they still have both been found grossly negligent and fired?

It smacks too much of retribution to me... to make them "pay" for a costly hull loss and the consequent embarrassment to the executives. It seems more like a "face saving" exercise on the part of TNT.

Hull losses are insured. But how is this going to affect the future careers of two pilots who may well be perfectly competent - but who made a simple mistake under pressure that anyone could have made?

fox niner

What I meant to say was that yes, indeed it must be possible to fire pilots at a certain moment in time. But in this case, I have the feeling that TNT is rushing to conclusions before they are available. And although they look quite obvious, one can never tell what the outcome will be for sure.

So I wouldn't have simply fired them just like that. I certainly would take them off their roster and put them on non-active duty, and wait for the outcome of the report.

F9

scanscanscan

I think it is poor practice for companies to insist on change of destination instructions to their commanders be given via ATC on short landing finals.
I also think ATC as an SOP should refrain from doing so at this critical time.
Certainly ATC should not do it inside the OM unless an emergency exists.
The present system invites things to sometimes go wrong as this incident should be used to modify the best safest ATC practices allowed.

JW411

LD Max:

"Maybe the fact that neither of them called a go-around makes them both grossly negligent...."

That would certainly do it.