BA hero wants to quit
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The article claims he's flown once since the incident. Why he's off work now isn't made clear - the article gives two possible contradictory reasons - stress related sick leave, and BA "not letting him fly until the investigation is completed". Can anyone throw any light on this?
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"Can anyone throw any light on this?"
Yeah… the pilot himself. However, I would believe that on the advice of his counsel, and pending the outcome of the investigation, he is keeping a low profile.
Yeah… the pilot himself. However, I would believe that on the advice of his counsel, and pending the outcome of the investigation, he is keeping a low profile.
Whoever BAMANAGER is, he/she is not a journo in disguise, for whatever you may say about them, they wouldn't write such poor English. With these qualifications, I trust he/she is not a BAMANAGER!
might of felt
They must of
BAmanager used to post as BAengineering until he/she/it was banned. Also as a journo under another ID.
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The final AAIB report will be a long long way off.
May be the PR team should come back from holiday and get a little press release/AAIB update ready with some of the facts, they could put it out during the long hall flight switch to T5 and/or during the show in the summer.
I would hope the facts will include at least the following 3 item.
1. Fuel temp info.
2. Cross feed valves info.
3. Flaps info.
If the PR team get it right, it will work out ok for everybody.
We all need to remember the happy outcome of the 038.
If all the lessons are learned and acted upon, the poor old 038 will save lives in future.
My hat remains off to all the crew and passengers that day.
May be the PR team should come back from holiday and get a little press release/AAIB update ready with some of the facts, they could put it out during the long hall flight switch to T5 and/or during the show in the summer.
I would hope the facts will include at least the following 3 item.
1. Fuel temp info.
2. Cross feed valves info.
3. Flaps info.
If the PR team get it right, it will work out ok for everybody.
We all need to remember the happy outcome of the 038.
If all the lessons are learned and acted upon, the poor old 038 will save lives in future.
My hat remains off to all the crew and passengers that day.
I call you back
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Question:
If a pilot was grounded on medical grounds due to a major incident at work then would the company involved be liable for any loss of earnings, i.e. all normal earnings not merely basic pay?
(For example if a guys who loads catering does his back in doing his job while he is on sick leave he will receive full pay. However if he breaks a leg on his own time he would receive sick pay.)
If a pilot was grounded on medical grounds due to a major incident at work then would the company involved be liable for any loss of earnings, i.e. all normal earnings not merely basic pay?
(For example if a guys who loads catering does his back in doing his job while he is on sick leave he will receive full pay. However if he breaks a leg on his own time he would receive sick pay.)
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Which is it Hand Solo??
".....He's been flying again for months and has a full roster next month? "
"....he appears to be upset that he isn't getting flying allowances. Errr hello? Why would you get flying allowances and if you are not flying? Nobody else does. ....."
Cannot have it both ways !
"....he appears to be upset that he isn't getting flying allowances. Errr hello? Why would you get flying allowances and if you are not flying? Nobody else does. ....."
Cannot have it both ways !
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There is a bigger issue behind all this and should those employed by BA just remove those rose tinted spectacles for just a few minutes things would look very different.
I am not out to knock BA just out to place some real home truths into the discussion.
BA has had a serious culture issue for some time. They have unfortunately lost their way a bit in the 21st century and are moving from being a really top employer to something more akin to that expected at that Irish outfit.
It isn't just flight crews or cabin crews that are affected, it is the whole company, from top to bottom. More is slowly moving to less, safety is slowly moving towards unsafe, caring is moving to uncaring. BA alludes exclusively now to profit and nothing else matters.
The results are for all to see, if you would just look.
It is a real shame and I gain no pleasure from approaching this subject. It is however fact.
I am not out to knock BA just out to place some real home truths into the discussion.
BA has had a serious culture issue for some time. They have unfortunately lost their way a bit in the 21st century and are moving from being a really top employer to something more akin to that expected at that Irish outfit.
It isn't just flight crews or cabin crews that are affected, it is the whole company, from top to bottom. More is slowly moving to less, safety is slowly moving towards unsafe, caring is moving to uncaring. BA alludes exclusively now to profit and nothing else matters.
The results are for all to see, if you would just look.
It is a real shame and I gain no pleasure from approaching this subject. It is however fact.
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Why would you get flying allowances and if you are not flying? Nobody else does. ....."
That's what happens in France. Up to you to choose when it kicks in, immediatly, 15 days, 30 days ..........etc after the accident happened. Your personal choice of course since it has consequences on your premiums.
To those who think Mr Coward could / should have done better :
Do be reasonable please !!! At 700 ft, I challenge anyone who thinks he could have done better !! As for me, well, I would have taken over the controls ( total gut reaction ) and most probably disconnected the A/P ( gut reaction again ) after that ?? Your guess is as good as mine.
You may say what you want, but we are not trained / prepared for these kind of things. One hopes we would be " creative " when push comes to shove and I think they were.
All the best to mr Burkhill, I'm not sure he chose the best of paths...................if he ever had a choice that is. Doesn't look that way.
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It doesn't do to speculate, so I won't, however I do support sarah 737 when she said:
Let's face it, NITS / DODAR etc etc is good stuff when time/fuel permit. If you need to act then you need to act. We'll have to wait till we see the report, but as beamer said:
In this case, thank goodness, (whatever the result) that Mr Boeing builds such good aeroplanes and installs such good autopilots and robust shock absorbing undercarriages!!!
Personally, I can't imagine a worse time for something to happen than at the end of a LH sector, ...... BUT.....I am in absolutely no doubt that had I been the Captain, right or wrong, I would have taken control on the grounds that I was going to be responsible anyway, and that it's probable I'd make a better fist of things than a low time Second Officer - and that's not to denigrate the S/O.
I note our colleague Hand Solo has once again had to retire wrong, he'll doubtless return with an abstruse explanation for his contradictory and illogical comments - at least he's consistent!
I'm sure that if the paper has it wrong, then BACC acting on behalf of one of the sisterhood will stump up the loot to sue the Mirror. Maybe BA will threaten strike action?? These situations should not be rushed, there may be a case for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder litigation for flight crew as well as - or instead of - the pax.Will we see more photos of chocolate covered pilots?
In the meantime, it continues to amuse to watch the self inflicted wounds that the Nation's Laughing Stock continues to inflict upon itself - you really couldn't make this stuff up (maybe the Captain in question is also planning a political career - who knows these days)! More and more BA resembles the BL of the seventies - we all know where that went!
If we were REALLY lucky, maybe Solo will see the merits of a public career - there's always the Monster Raving Loony Party!
leaving the autopilot in untill the plane stalls is not really heroic. Everybody can do that, they were just lucky to survive.
it's dangerous treating anyone as a hero until the full facts are known, not just in aviation but in life generally !
Personally, I can't imagine a worse time for something to happen than at the end of a LH sector, ...... BUT.....I am in absolutely no doubt that had I been the Captain, right or wrong, I would have taken control on the grounds that I was going to be responsible anyway, and that it's probable I'd make a better fist of things than a low time Second Officer - and that's not to denigrate the S/O.
I note our colleague Hand Solo has once again had to retire wrong, he'll doubtless return with an abstruse explanation for his contradictory and illogical comments - at least he's consistent!
I'm sure that if the paper has it wrong, then BACC acting on behalf of one of the sisterhood will stump up the loot to sue the Mirror. Maybe BA will threaten strike action?? These situations should not be rushed, there may be a case for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder litigation for flight crew as well as - or instead of - the pax.Will we see more photos of chocolate covered pilots?
In the meantime, it continues to amuse to watch the self inflicted wounds that the Nation's Laughing Stock continues to inflict upon itself - you really couldn't make this stuff up (maybe the Captain in question is also planning a political career - who knows these days)! More and more BA resembles the BL of the seventies - we all know where that went!
If we were REALLY lucky, maybe Solo will see the merits of a public career - there's always the Monster Raving Loony Party!
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Kurtz would you please take your words back about low time second officers in the context of this topic.
1st of all, BA do not employ second officers.
2nd of all, SFO John Coward (senior first officer as you well know) is close to a command on the Boeing 777 by way of his seniority within BA and could have had his command on a shorthaul aircraft ages ago.
3rdly speculating about who should be in control of an aircraft that close to the ground and it's relative merits of taking over are just stupid.
If you know anything about CRM then a risk assessment done behind your computer is not exactly the same thing as what happened on the day.
So you do nicely speculate away whilst knowing none of the facts, it makes you look like the fool you are.
Why stop and snipe on every single street corner, does it give you pleasure?
1st of all, BA do not employ second officers.
2nd of all, SFO John Coward (senior first officer as you well know) is close to a command on the Boeing 777 by way of his seniority within BA and could have had his command on a shorthaul aircraft ages ago.
3rdly speculating about who should be in control of an aircraft that close to the ground and it's relative merits of taking over are just stupid.
If you know anything about CRM then a risk assessment done behind your computer is not exactly the same thing as what happened on the day.
So you do nicely speculate away whilst knowing none of the facts, it makes you look like the fool you are.
Why stop and snipe on every single street corner, does it give you pleasure?
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Kurtz,
As stated in my previous post the Captain does not take control in such an emergency. If you were do so you would be wrong.
The SFO is often a better handling pilot than the Captain as that is all he does. The Captain has to have overall responsibility for the aircraft and it would be his job to manage the emergency. You don't do that by taking control with the resultant tunnel vision you would have of the situation.
Look at the BMI accident at Kegworth where the Captain had control and disconnected the autpilot. He lost the ability to manage the emergency properly. It's a standard example at all CRM courses.
As stated in my previous post the Captain does not take control in such an emergency. If you were do so you would be wrong.
The SFO is often a better handling pilot than the Captain as that is all he does. The Captain has to have overall responsibility for the aircraft and it would be his job to manage the emergency. You don't do that by taking control with the resultant tunnel vision you would have of the situation.
Look at the BMI accident at Kegworth where the Captain had control and disconnected the autpilot. He lost the ability to manage the emergency properly. It's a standard example at all CRM courses.
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The point seems to be that it's BA making itself look like a fool!
What next - it's immensely funny to watch! It's also difficult to follow - T5 (I'm with BEagle and the quote from Michael Winner!), then we have chocolate PTSD heros attacking their employer for cutting their bonuses when they are grounded/flying/bit-of-both, we have other pilots alleging institutional racism whilst standing for election as Labour MPs - I mean really.....
We have Hand Solo contradicting himself (OK, nowt new there);
it gives a whole new meaning to checking PPrune, will BA shoot itself in the foot, the @rse, the brains - (oops, repetition) - please DO keep it up, it's better than watching "The Apprentice".
What next - it's immensely funny to watch! It's also difficult to follow - T5 (I'm with BEagle and the quote from Michael Winner!), then we have chocolate PTSD heros attacking their employer for cutting their bonuses when they are grounded/flying/bit-of-both, we have other pilots alleging institutional racism whilst standing for election as Labour MPs - I mean really.....
We have Hand Solo contradicting himself (OK, nowt new there);
it gives a whole new meaning to checking PPrune, will BA shoot itself in the foot, the @rse, the brains - (oops, repetition) - please DO keep it up, it's better than watching "The Apprentice".
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No I won't take it back.
it's probable I'd make a better fist of things than a low time Second Officer - and that's not to denigrate the S/O.
My whole point was that it's not possible to make an ongoing risk assessment so close to the ground. The CRM implications are well described, inasmuch that the FO handles while the Captain manages. Remind me how much management is possible at that altitude - they seem to have managed their way into keeping the A/P engaged, and changing the flap setting. Can't wait to see the risk assessment done regarding the flap/speed correlation, the diagnosis and option discussion etc etc. Point of fact is that leaving the A/P in may well have been the best option, however at that juncture I would have opted for personal intervention rather than the status quo - you'll note please I did not suggest anyone 'froze'!!!
To compare Kegworth is to compare apples and bananas. A more relevant comparison would be the HS748 who rejected well past V1. Had he followed conventional thinking all on board would have died. I suggest that we wait for the CVR, I suggest we wait for AAIB final report. In the meantime, as I'm sure we are all aware, there is a huge body of opinion and intensive discussion on flight decks around the world regarding this incident - clearly, everyone does not think that from what we know thus far, this incident was necessarily optimally handled - any more than various other contemporary BA problems.
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Yep, and I had a BA critical post deleted as well. It seems that BACC have taken over moderation of this forum. I suppose that means we'll all lose our baggage next?
Bit rich coming from a multiple-identity single-issue attention-whore. Banned, Sine Die, and don't come back.
Bit rich coming from a multiple-identity single-issue attention-whore. Banned, Sine Die, and don't come back.
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wild guess..........because it sounded pretty insulting to the crew and pictured them as powerless morons. I've seen much worse abuse and inuendos on this site that didn't get deleted though. . Unless you have a death wish I would leave it at that. This topic seems pretty emotionally charged, even in the land of tight upper lip.
Last edited by Me Myself; 27th Apr 2008 at 21:39.
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Kurtz that was not the part that I wanted you to take back. You were talking about taking control of a low hours second officer. Evidently not the case here. So I either suggest you modify your postings and make them relevant.
So you contradict yourself neatly. The FO handles, the Captain Manages.
He saw fit to let the FO do the flying as per SOPs and evidently managed the situation by selecting F20 instead of F25, clearly thinking outside the box. Would he have done the same if he'd taken control of the aircraft?
I don't want to start a guessing game.
But your part of taking control over an aircraft from a low houred second officer has NO bearing on this at all, so thats what I want you to take back since it's not relevant here!
So you contradict yourself neatly. The FO handles, the Captain Manages.
He saw fit to let the FO do the flying as per SOPs and evidently managed the situation by selecting F20 instead of F25, clearly thinking outside the box. Would he have done the same if he'd taken control of the aircraft?
I don't want to start a guessing game.
But your part of taking control over an aircraft from a low houred second officer has NO bearing on this at all, so thats what I want you to take back since it's not relevant here!