BA 757 engine fire on approach to Glasgow
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BA 757 engine fire on approach to Glasgow
Did anyone hear about the BA 757 heathrow to Glasgow shuttle engine fire yesterday(25.05.01) My old mans pal(who is a BA engineer) was on the flight.
It was on approach a few miles out when no2 engine went on fire so the fire bottle was fired and engine was shut down.
On the landing run no 1 engine was shut down and the aircraft came to a halt with the usual fire services(etc) surrounding it
Did anyone else hear about this or have any other info on it?
Happy flying, see ya
[This message has been edited by captainmacuk (edited 27 May 2001).]
It was on approach a few miles out when no2 engine went on fire so the fire bottle was fired and engine was shut down.
On the landing run no 1 engine was shut down and the aircraft came to a halt with the usual fire services(etc) surrounding it
Did anyone else hear about this or have any other info on it?
Happy flying, see ya
[This message has been edited by captainmacuk (edited 27 May 2001).]
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I was their when it happened. We were just about to line up when we heard the 757 declare a "Mayday", and stating they had a left engine fire. We held at the Cat III hold as the aircraft landed. There were no signs of any fire on the engine to us.
After landing they shut down on the runway and were inspected by the fire service, who saw no signs of fire either. The runway was closed for about 45 minutes, almost necessitating a return to stand for more fuel!!!
After landing they shut down on the runway and were inspected by the fire service, who saw no signs of fire either. The runway was closed for about 45 minutes, almost necessitating a return to stand for more fuel!!!
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I'm sure they had a fire warning at the time they issued the mayday, but it probably went out when they fired the bottles.
They did exactly the right thing, even if it appeared to you a little unnecessary, MAPt. I'm sure you'd do the same in their shoes.
Maxfli, captainmacuks' profile says his interests are drinking and flying. Not much future as a professional pilot there then...
They did exactly the right thing, even if it appeared to you a little unnecessary, MAPt. I'm sure you'd do the same in their shoes.
Maxfli, captainmacuks' profile says his interests are drinking and flying. Not much future as a professional pilot there then...
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Nope, I can't see the 'panic' bit in his post either.....editing is a wonderful function.
I think the bit where the aircraft stops on the runway and prepares to evacuate in the event of a fire warning is SOP isn't it ? Didn't we learn about trying to clear the runway with a fire indication at Manchester a few years ago ? We're told to 'think wind' and consider where the smoke and flames would drift in such cases and the best place to be is on that lovely bit of wide concrete where we can turn to keep the smoke away from the aircraft. I think most folk understand that and as was mentioned earlier are happy to accept it, and indeed would expect it themselves.
What was the bit about panic anyway (before the edit)?
I think the bit where the aircraft stops on the runway and prepares to evacuate in the event of a fire warning is SOP isn't it ? Didn't we learn about trying to clear the runway with a fire indication at Manchester a few years ago ? We're told to 'think wind' and consider where the smoke and flames would drift in such cases and the best place to be is on that lovely bit of wide concrete where we can turn to keep the smoke away from the aircraft. I think most folk understand that and as was mentioned earlier are happy to accept it, and indeed would expect it themselves.
What was the bit about panic anyway (before the edit)?
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It went like this:
"It was on approach a few miles out when no2 engine went on fire so the fire bottle was fired and engine was shut down. Panic!" etc
At least he could have apologised... probably too busy drinking and flying (or has he edited his profile as well???)
"It was on approach a few miles out when no2 engine went on fire so the fire bottle was fired and engine was shut down. Panic!" etc
At least he could have apologised... probably too busy drinking and flying (or has he edited his profile as well???)
Guest
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Our QRH and 'memory recall items' drill do not say that you have to evacuate just for a fire warning, and for the most part to do so is entirely the prerogative of the Captain.
If you understand just how the overheat / fire loop detectors work then you'd realise that it is possible to have false fire overheat / fire warning (e.g. some sort of hot gas leak from the engine could well indeed set off the warning, but you're not actually on fire ) and, certainly before issuing the command to evacuate the aircraft, you'd accordingly want some sort of corroboration of a fire emanating from your aircraft (e.g. the ATC tower folks can see smoke and / or flames, or that perhaps there's smoke in the aircraft, etc….. )
Now w.r.t. shutting down the 'good' engine - yes you would do this on the basis that if a fire was indeed confirmed to be blazing away you'd be immediately ready to command an evacuation, e.g. it's rather distressing to have pax successfully alighting from the cabin only to get sucked-into / blown-over by that big RR donkey - and it takes quite a while for an RB211 to stop spinning.
Ultimately the last thing you want to do is to order an emergency passenger evacuation for no good reason, i.e. you panicked and failed to properly evaluate the situation - so in this instance it sounds like the crew did a top job !
If you understand just how the overheat / fire loop detectors work then you'd realise that it is possible to have false fire overheat / fire warning (e.g. some sort of hot gas leak from the engine could well indeed set off the warning, but you're not actually on fire ) and, certainly before issuing the command to evacuate the aircraft, you'd accordingly want some sort of corroboration of a fire emanating from your aircraft (e.g. the ATC tower folks can see smoke and / or flames, or that perhaps there's smoke in the aircraft, etc….. )
Now w.r.t. shutting down the 'good' engine - yes you would do this on the basis that if a fire was indeed confirmed to be blazing away you'd be immediately ready to command an evacuation, e.g. it's rather distressing to have pax successfully alighting from the cabin only to get sucked-into / blown-over by that big RR donkey - and it takes quite a while for an RB211 to stop spinning.
Ultimately the last thing you want to do is to order an emergency passenger evacuation for no good reason, i.e. you panicked and failed to properly evaluate the situation - so in this instance it sounds like the crew did a top job !
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Old King Coal,
What happened to CRM at your place, if you'd got an engine fire on a 757 chances are that at least 6 crew and possibly around 160 pax will also have noticed something. Why wait for ATC to tell you somethings burning. There is more than just 2 crew on an aircraft you know. (phew glad I got that off my chest)
What happened to CRM at your place, if you'd got an engine fire on a 757 chances are that at least 6 crew and possibly around 160 pax will also have noticed something. Why wait for ATC to tell you somethings burning. There is more than just 2 crew on an aircraft you know. (phew glad I got that off my chest)
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Old King Coal,
You write that "the last thing you want to do is to order an emergency passenger evacuation for no good reason."
Surely, the that's the second last thing. The last thing would be to fail to order an emergency evacuation when it really was needed.
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Leave the poor loon alone. So he likes drinking and flying. You guys are deliberately applying these interests in the same context when you know damn well this is not what the chap's profile is supposed to convey.
I have a successful career in professional aviation & I have an interest in drinking as well; doesn't mean to say that I arse a bottle of Gin before going to work.
Lighten up.
I have a successful career in professional aviation & I have an interest in drinking as well; doesn't mean to say that I arse a bottle of Gin before going to work.
Lighten up.
mainfrog2,
The flight crew would probably get a more immediate answer from ATC or directly from the fire chief but that doesn't rule out confirmation from cabin crew. In daylight fog, for instance, then a cabin crew report might be the better course of action (reflection from night time fog and would leave no-one in any doubt
)
stagger,
No, the last thing you'd want to do would have a learned discussion on semantics
The flight crew would probably get a more immediate answer from ATC or directly from the fire chief but that doesn't rule out confirmation from cabin crew. In daylight fog, for instance, then a cabin crew report might be the better course of action (reflection from night time fog and would leave no-one in any doubt
)stagger,
No, the last thing you'd want to do would have a learned discussion on semantics
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So Mainfrog2 (and having had a look at your profile), pray tell me who is it that is responsible for ordering an evacuation AND ( / or) just when is it / under which very special / unique circumstances (please define) are cabin crew allowed, of their own volition, to initiate an evacuation ?........ e.g. given the above, would you have evacuated ?
And let's get this straight - an evacuation is a SERIOUS thing to undertake, e.g. that's why the briefing that flight-crew undertake prior to (for instance) taking-off usually includes a bit about what you will do after an RTO (having safely brought the aircraft to halt, applied the brake) to the effect that "We will sit on our hands, and take our time to properly identify just what is / was the problem(s)", and only if deemed serious enough / necessary will the Captain then make the order to evacuate.
E.g. let's say that the aircraft suffered some sort of fire indication (but not much else by way of smoke / flames), the technical crew land and bring the aircraft to a rapid stop, suddenly there's a smell of smoke in the cabin.
Would you evacuate immediately ? If not immediately, how long would you wait ? What would be your decision making process ? How would you corroborate that the a/c, and its occupants, are indeed in imminent danger ? ........... for all you know, in the preceding, the engine fire indication was caused by a major bleed-air leak in the vicinity of the fire protection loop, the smoke in the cabin was caused by the brakes getting seriously hot during the rapid stop and melting one of the fuse plugs - the smoke from which was ingested into an air-conditioning pack via the engine intake just prior to the engine being shut down. Indeed, there was actually never any fire - but that's not to say that it mightn't have all the symptoms of one - and that's why the Captain uses his/her knowledge and judgement to make the decision w.r.t. the risk - both of an apparent fire indication and / or of evacuating; It is not a time when you PANIC - it's a time for cool, calm, and collected thought !
I'll also go so far to say that a great many cabin-crew, and I mean no disrespect (i.e. it's not their / your job to know), have very little idea as to the 'finer-points' w.r.t. the operation of a large Public Transport jet aircraft and / or the thought processes and technical drills that the flight crew are required to undertake prior to / during / after a major malfunction.
To be honest I'd like all cabin crew to be able to attend one of the flight crew six-monthly simulator sessions (sit in the back and watch) during which we revisit the above scenarios, I'm sure that such an insight would indeed be of great value.
Also, CRM (Crew Resource Management) is not about a Captain being pushed / influenced into making decisions (which I believe is more properly known as 'Risky Shift') by having the purser / CSD / #1 / Senior Cabin Crew member / etc… come bursting hysterically in to the cockpit spouting on about "there's smoke in the cabin, I think we should evacuate !" (see the scenario above), i.e. one of the great things about using CRM is that you can canvas ideas / information from your crew.... but you don’t have to take it !
And let's get this straight - an evacuation is a SERIOUS thing to undertake, e.g. that's why the briefing that flight-crew undertake prior to (for instance) taking-off usually includes a bit about what you will do after an RTO (having safely brought the aircraft to halt, applied the brake) to the effect that "We will sit on our hands, and take our time to properly identify just what is / was the problem(s)", and only if deemed serious enough / necessary will the Captain then make the order to evacuate.
E.g. let's say that the aircraft suffered some sort of fire indication (but not much else by way of smoke / flames), the technical crew land and bring the aircraft to a rapid stop, suddenly there's a smell of smoke in the cabin.
Would you evacuate immediately ? If not immediately, how long would you wait ? What would be your decision making process ? How would you corroborate that the a/c, and its occupants, are indeed in imminent danger ? ........... for all you know, in the preceding, the engine fire indication was caused by a major bleed-air leak in the vicinity of the fire protection loop, the smoke in the cabin was caused by the brakes getting seriously hot during the rapid stop and melting one of the fuse plugs - the smoke from which was ingested into an air-conditioning pack via the engine intake just prior to the engine being shut down. Indeed, there was actually never any fire - but that's not to say that it mightn't have all the symptoms of one - and that's why the Captain uses his/her knowledge and judgement to make the decision w.r.t. the risk - both of an apparent fire indication and / or of evacuating; It is not a time when you PANIC - it's a time for cool, calm, and collected thought !
I'll also go so far to say that a great many cabin-crew, and I mean no disrespect (i.e. it's not their / your job to know), have very little idea as to the 'finer-points' w.r.t. the operation of a large Public Transport jet aircraft and / or the thought processes and technical drills that the flight crew are required to undertake prior to / during / after a major malfunction.
To be honest I'd like all cabin crew to be able to attend one of the flight crew six-monthly simulator sessions (sit in the back and watch) during which we revisit the above scenarios, I'm sure that such an insight would indeed be of great value.
Also, CRM (Crew Resource Management) is not about a Captain being pushed / influenced into making decisions (which I believe is more properly known as 'Risky Shift') by having the purser / CSD / #1 / Senior Cabin Crew member / etc… come bursting hysterically in to the cockpit spouting on about "there's smoke in the cabin, I think we should evacuate !" (see the scenario above), i.e. one of the great things about using CRM is that you can canvas ideas / information from your crew.... but you don’t have to take it !
Guest
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Hi people sorry I couldnt get logged onto the net for a while(modem prob) to answer some of the people questioning the drinking thing.
For a start i was being silly just adding a little humour (you know the BA pilot thing) to my profile and cheers Kiltie for sticking up for me mate
and i am not exactly a pro pilot (yet) Im an 18 year old student learning to fly so I can go out for a drink or two with my mates
The edit thing (panic!!!) I was being sarcastic, again a little humour
And it wasnt the ATC that spotted the fire it was the warning systems and a couple of passengers.
just another thing what do you all work at in aviation as I would like to know,
any advice for a future pilot(hopefully)
I know I know Im not in the right forum but you dont get the top pros going into the wannabee forum do you?
See ya all later
thanks for the answers and info
For a start i was being silly just adding a little humour (you know the BA pilot thing) to my profile and cheers Kiltie for sticking up for me mate
and i am not exactly a pro pilot (yet) Im an 18 year old student learning to fly so I can go out for a drink or two with my mates
The edit thing (panic!!!) I was being sarcastic, again a little humour
And it wasnt the ATC that spotted the fire it was the warning systems and a couple of passengers.
just another thing what do you all work at in aviation as I would like to know,
any advice for a future pilot(hopefully)
I know I know Im not in the right forum but you dont get the top pros going into the wannabee forum do you?
See ya all later
thanks for the answers and info
Guest
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Cpt. Mac,
I for one guessed at your "connections" from your post. If you wanna "mix it with the lads" (and lasses these days
) just get on down to the GatBash or one of the bashes at EDI or GLA and you can certainly learn (until they get toooo far gone that is
Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to get to the GatBash this time
but it's a great opportunity for wannabees to chat with the "Old Pros". And what about the seminars that Infin & Stan have organised!
Hopefully see you'all at the Xmas Bash
------------------
What goes around . . .
. . often lands better!
I for one guessed at your "connections" from your post. If you wanna "mix it with the lads" (and lasses these days
) just get on down to the GatBash or one of the bashes at EDI or GLA and you can certainly learn (until they get toooo far gone that is Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to get to the GatBash this time
but it's a great opportunity for wannabees to chat with the "Old Pros". And what about the seminars that Infin & Stan have organised!Hopefully see you'all at the Xmas Bash
------------------
What goes around . . .
. . often lands better!
Guest
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Devils Advocate
Sounds like a suitable handle for you.
The times when cabin crew can initiate an evacuation without a call from flight deck is when the landing is -clearly catastrophic-
that is to say
the A/c lands on water
there is fire in the cabin
if the aircraft fuselage breaks up (big bits missing)
also there has to be a system in your training which allows for the fact that the flight deck may not survive the incident.
Also I think as well as cabin crew having time on your simulator, maybe you could take a quick peek at our training. When you call for the a/c to be evacuated who do you think does the door opening, moves the pax away safely. That'll be the fairies at the bottom of the garden.
In an incident on an a/c I will be expected to get a briefing from the flight deck on the nature,intentions, time available and special instructions. This will not go over my head, I will know what you are talking about and I will prepare the passengers in a way which should minimise casualties.
Also all my profile tells you is that I am cabin crew I live in Crawley and like sailing. Your powers of deduction are quite fantastic Devils Advocate.If you know anymore than that I'd love to know how. Stop flying become a medium.
My point on my original post was that not to forget that you have crew at the back. This incident appears to have started miles away from the airport and well out of view of ATC and you fire officers.
CRM seems to be talked about a lot but not always put into practice.
Also there have been many incidents in the past were errors on the part of pilots could have been prevented if the whole crew had talked to each other. Better to learn by other peoples mistakes.
The original post I placed has obviously been misconstrued as I only wished to point out that there are more than two crew on the aircraft. I bow to your greater knowledge on the workings of a jet engine. I don't expect any captain to make a descision based on information from only one source.
Also contrary to popular belief cabin crew are a pretty switched on lot, all you have to do is fly the aircraft we have to deal with hundreds of scared people.
Enough now I'm of for my tea.
[This message has been edited by mainfrog2 (edited 29 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by mainfrog2 (edited 29 May 2001).]
Sounds like a suitable handle for you.
The times when cabin crew can initiate an evacuation without a call from flight deck is when the landing is -clearly catastrophic-
that is to say
the A/c lands on water
there is fire in the cabin
if the aircraft fuselage breaks up (big bits missing)
also there has to be a system in your training which allows for the fact that the flight deck may not survive the incident.
Also I think as well as cabin crew having time on your simulator, maybe you could take a quick peek at our training. When you call for the a/c to be evacuated who do you think does the door opening, moves the pax away safely. That'll be the fairies at the bottom of the garden.
In an incident on an a/c I will be expected to get a briefing from the flight deck on the nature,intentions, time available and special instructions. This will not go over my head, I will know what you are talking about and I will prepare the passengers in a way which should minimise casualties.
Also all my profile tells you is that I am cabin crew I live in Crawley and like sailing. Your powers of deduction are quite fantastic Devils Advocate.If you know anymore than that I'd love to know how. Stop flying become a medium.
My point on my original post was that not to forget that you have crew at the back. This incident appears to have started miles away from the airport and well out of view of ATC and you fire officers.
CRM seems to be talked about a lot but not always put into practice.
Also there have been many incidents in the past were errors on the part of pilots could have been prevented if the whole crew had talked to each other. Better to learn by other peoples mistakes.
The original post I placed has obviously been misconstrued as I only wished to point out that there are more than two crew on the aircraft. I bow to your greater knowledge on the workings of a jet engine. I don't expect any captain to make a descision based on information from only one source.
Also contrary to popular belief cabin crew are a pretty switched on lot, all you have to do is fly the aircraft we have to deal with hundreds of scared people.
Enough now I'm of for my tea.
[This message has been edited by mainfrog2 (edited 29 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by mainfrog2 (edited 29 May 2001).]