ICAO Language Proficiency Tests
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China Northern Flight 6901
Yes, old, not bold, it is true. China Northern Flight 6901 was the flight mentioned in the article.
Also,The Chinese are one of the most advanced at the moment for getting ATC and pilots tested and trained. They are not all level four but they are making great passes in getting them there.
I would like to see the article in the RAeS and will do what I can to find it as I am not a member or subscriber.
As far as maintenance personnel is concerned it is not part of the ICAO standards and therefore, unfortunately has been pushed aside. We, as ICAEA, are looking into opening people's eyes on the subject more now that interest is gaining since the new pilot/atc standards have come about.
I've got some fantastic studies on English language problems in maintenance. Also, just look at the Aloha accident. It was documented after that accident that the mechanics couldn't understand the way the FAA had written the guidelines on rivet inspections (and perhaps the company ignored them a bit too) so now manuals are graded to a high school English level.
As ICAEA, I am planning on having a symposium of sorts here in Italy and I will focus on ALL aspects of aviation English not just pilot/controller communications. It doesn't do any good to ignore the safety factor in other areas as you so rightly mention here.
Cheers,
PE
Also,The Chinese are one of the most advanced at the moment for getting ATC and pilots tested and trained. They are not all level four but they are making great passes in getting them there.
I would like to see the article in the RAeS and will do what I can to find it as I am not a member or subscriber.
As far as maintenance personnel is concerned it is not part of the ICAO standards and therefore, unfortunately has been pushed aside. We, as ICAEA, are looking into opening people's eyes on the subject more now that interest is gaining since the new pilot/atc standards have come about.
I've got some fantastic studies on English language problems in maintenance. Also, just look at the Aloha accident. It was documented after that accident that the mechanics couldn't understand the way the FAA had written the guidelines on rivet inspections (and perhaps the company ignored them a bit too) so now manuals are graded to a high school English level.
As ICAEA, I am planning on having a symposium of sorts here in Italy and I will focus on ALL aspects of aviation English not just pilot/controller communications. It doesn't do any good to ignore the safety factor in other areas as you so rightly mention here.
Cheers,
PE
Last edited by planeenglish; 5th Jan 2008 at 13:02.
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Countdown has begun...2 months remaining to learn english or pass your rating, for the one who want start this wonderful job...
after march 2008, schools will struggle to find new students, unless they lie to them (as usual), by telling them they can get level 4 in 1-2 months.
"you have 2 months left, tic-tac, pilot"
after march 2008, schools will struggle to find new students, unless they lie to them (as usual), by telling them they can get level 4 in 1-2 months.
"you have 2 months left, tic-tac, pilot"
Last edited by dartagnan; 21st Jan 2008 at 14:57.
I just became a Language Examiner in Canada. We only use 3 levels, 6 Expert, 4 Operational, and "less than 4" non-operational.
If you score 4, you need a retest within 5 years, if you receive "less than 4" you will not be issued a license...
Current License holders have their previous correspondence with TC, and their written tests assessed, and graded upon what is then found. (I by the way, am not a Native English speaker, nor am i French...)
The test is completely oral, and done over the phone, so that there is no physical interaction between the test taker and the examiner.
The test is scenario based and fairly simple, and a pilot at solo level should pass it with ease. Any native english speaker should pass wit flying colors, and if not, usually due to taking the test out of context. It is NOT an aviation exam, it is a language exam.
As it was said before, the easiest way to increase proficiency in a language, is to live there, and DON'T live with people from your country, as you will not speak the new language... (I know, several of my former students have had that problem...)
Cheers
W.
If you score 4, you need a retest within 5 years, if you receive "less than 4" you will not be issued a license...
Current License holders have their previous correspondence with TC, and their written tests assessed, and graded upon what is then found. (I by the way, am not a Native English speaker, nor am i French...)
The test is completely oral, and done over the phone, so that there is no physical interaction between the test taker and the examiner.
The test is scenario based and fairly simple, and a pilot at solo level should pass it with ease. Any native english speaker should pass wit flying colors, and if not, usually due to taking the test out of context. It is NOT an aviation exam, it is a language exam.
As it was said before, the easiest way to increase proficiency in a language, is to live there, and DON'T live with people from your country, as you will not speak the new language... (I know, several of my former students have had that problem...)
Cheers
W.
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@Winnie, to my knowledge, some instructors are allowed to do it in person with their own students. Apparently examiners who are allowed to oversee written exams/issue temporary licenses/do flight tests will also be given the chance to do the oral exams in person in the near future.
Wasn't there a case awhile back where some China pilots were banned from a country (this happens a lot doesn't it?) because they get confused and don't know what to do?
Wasn't there a case awhile back where some China pilots were banned from a country (this happens a lot doesn't it?) because they get confused and don't know what to do?
RV6: "If the test is done over the phone, what's to stop a candidate getting a native speaker to do it for him/her? "
Well the way it is done, is that we go through the flightschool, and usually you can trust the CFI there (Chief Flight Instructor)
MidgetBoy: "Winnie, to my knowledge, some instructors are allowed to do it in person with their own students. Apparently examiners who are allowed to oversee written exams/issue temporary licenses/do flight tests will also be given the chance to do the oral exams in person in the near future"
Nope, here you have to go to a delegated authority, and the test can NOT be conducted "face-to-face". It has to be at least separated by a wall.
Yes you can conduct the test on a subject you have taught, no probs, as there should really be no bias. Either the student/candidate understand english, or they don't.
And as mentioned before the test is purely oral, it takes about 20 minutes, and is scenario based.
Well the way it is done, is that we go through the flightschool, and usually you can trust the CFI there (Chief Flight Instructor)
MidgetBoy: "Winnie, to my knowledge, some instructors are allowed to do it in person with their own students. Apparently examiners who are allowed to oversee written exams/issue temporary licenses/do flight tests will also be given the chance to do the oral exams in person in the near future"
Nope, here you have to go to a delegated authority, and the test can NOT be conducted "face-to-face". It has to be at least separated by a wall.
Yes you can conduct the test on a subject you have taught, no probs, as there should really be no bias. Either the student/candidate understand english, or they don't.
And as mentioned before the test is purely oral, it takes about 20 minutes, and is scenario based.
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Hello Captain87,
Did you write your last post yourself without any assistance? If so, your written English is near-perfect, and certainly a lot better than many native English-speakers!
Did you write your last post yourself without any assistance? If so, your written English is near-perfect, and certainly a lot better than many native English-speakers!
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@Winnie, well I know someone who owns a flight school and was told that he would be allowed to do these oral exams face to face with students in the near future. He is also allowed to administrate written exams and issue temporary licenses.
However it does seem awkward that someone would need to communicate properly on this when it's already hard enough for weak English speakers to pass certain written exams.
However it does seem awkward that someone would need to communicate properly on this when it's already hard enough for weak English speakers to pass certain written exams.
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The problem is that ICAO were not able/not in a position to advise testing standards and procedures. This means that tests can be devised in something of an arbitrary way provided they adhere to the ICAO rating scale and ICAO doc 9835, and are given the nod by the relevant authority.
I am writing this as an aviation English examiner - with the CAA that I work for the tests are conducted by aviation people (pilots/trainers etc) who have also been trained in administering the test. The candidate has a test during which their language abilities are fully explored, is recorded and then rated in compliance with the ICAO rating scale.
We use the full range of 6 rating levels in each of 6 rating areas. This is useful to a candidate as an indicator of where they would best benefit from improvement.
I am writing this as an aviation English examiner - with the CAA that I work for the tests are conducted by aviation people (pilots/trainers etc) who have also been trained in administering the test. The candidate has a test during which their language abilities are fully explored, is recorded and then rated in compliance with the ICAO rating scale.
We use the full range of 6 rating levels in each of 6 rating areas. This is useful to a candidate as an indicator of where they would best benefit from improvement.
The only written exams he is allowed to do are the PSTAR exams, all the others are computerized...
Also, there has to be a divider between the test taker and the evaluator, that is the minimum.
He may or may not be telling you the whole story, or have not yet gone through the course.
Cheers
w.
Also, there has to be a divider between the test taker and the evaluator, that is the minimum.
He may or may not be telling you the whole story, or have not yet gone through the course.
Cheers
w.
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Hello Poldek 77,
It was intentional seeing that I had already written to this ICAO english person in detail on that forum. This person has written on each forum in new threads saying that his/her test is something that it is not.
I'll re-write what I posted in the Italian forum even though the posts by this person have been deleted.
He/She claimed to have a test to assess proficiency with regards to the ICAO LPR standards. This person also claimed that the test was certified and the assessor was also a certified ICAO instructor. It was a scam. ICAO does not certify tests or examiners/assessors.:
It was intentional seeing that I had already written to this ICAO english person in detail on that forum. This person has written on each forum in new threads saying that his/her test is something that it is not.
I'll re-write what I posted in the Italian forum even though the posts by this person have been deleted.
He/She claimed to have a test to assess proficiency with regards to the ICAO LPR standards. This person also claimed that the test was certified and the assessor was also a certified ICAO instructor. It was a scam. ICAO does not certify tests or examiners/assessors.:
Dear ICAO English and Moderators,
ICAO do not issue ANY certificates nor do ICAO certify Instructors for rating/evaluating an English proficiency test.
You can not tell someone to pay for your test then tell them "it is up to them to deal with their CAA". What you claim is fraudulent.
Moderators, I can guarantee you, as well as ICAO (see ICAO.int FAQs concerning personnel licensing http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm) that what I write is FACT.
If you were a serious company with a serious and compliant testing body then you would have a real email address and not a generic gmail address, wouldn't you?
If you were a serious Testing Association your threads would be grammatically correct and your written English would be impeccable. It is neither of these things.
Say who you are and what you really do and stop trying swindle these people out of money.
Feel free to contact me personally, if you really are what you say you are then you SURELY KNOW WHO I AM!
PE
ICAO do not issue ANY certificates nor do ICAO certify Instructors for rating/evaluating an English proficiency test.
You can not tell someone to pay for your test then tell them "it is up to them to deal with their CAA". What you claim is fraudulent.
Moderators, I can guarantee you, as well as ICAO (see ICAO.int FAQs concerning personnel licensing http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm) that what I write is FACT.
If you were a serious company with a serious and compliant testing body then you would have a real email address and not a generic gmail address, wouldn't you?
If you were a serious Testing Association your threads would be grammatically correct and your written English would be impeccable. It is neither of these things.
Say who you are and what you really do and stop trying swindle these people out of money.
Feel free to contact me personally, if you really are what you say you are then you SURELY KNOW WHO I AM!
PE
Last edited by planeenglish; 23rd Jan 2008 at 13:03.
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Compliant tests
Dear Winnie;
Please note that in the holistic descriptors it states that a candidate must demonstrate proficiency in both non-face to face AND face to face situations.
A test that does not simulate the latter is really not a compliant test.
For All, with regards to Midget Boy's statement about testing one's student, it is unethical to test your own student and whereas ICAO hints this JAA has stipulated in am.7 of the FCLs this procedure of not testing your own student.
Best to all,
PE
Please note that in the holistic descriptors it states that a candidate must demonstrate proficiency in both non-face to face AND face to face situations.
A test that does not simulate the latter is really not a compliant test.
For All, with regards to Midget Boy's statement about testing one's student, it is unethical to test your own student and whereas ICAO hints this JAA has stipulated in am.7 of the FCLs this procedure of not testing your own student.
Best to all,
PE
Last edited by planeenglish; 23rd Jan 2008 at 12:52.
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whitehorse
I now have it confirmed that I am Profficient <sic> in English
I now have it confirmed that I am Profficient <sic> in English
cribble
I use apostrophes correctly in written English, and can be understood by most Poms south of about Lincoln.
I use apostrophes correctly in written English, and can be understood by most Poms south of about Lincoln.
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PlaneEnglish....Why am I NOT surprised by the scam artists running out of the walls (or is that UP from the sewers!! With a well known deadline, this isn't a big surprise. Wouldn't be the first time, but GOOD FOR YOU for having pointed it out to the rest of the site!
Also, thanks so very much for your help!
Also, thanks so very much for your help!
PE" you said "Dear Winnie;
Please note that in the holistic descriptors it states that a candidate must demonstrate proficiency in both non-face to face AND face to face situations.
A test that does not simulate the latter is really not a compliant test.
For All, with regards to Midget Boy's statement about testing one's student, it is unethical to test your own student and whereas ICAO hints this JAA has stipulated in am.7 of the FCLs this procedure of not testing your own student.
Best to all,
PE"
How each state chooses to comply with the requirement as set forth in the ICAO document, is up to them, and no country complies the same way. Canada has chosen several differences, and one of them is in how the test is conducted (i.e. over the phone only), and also in the scoring, using only 3 levels.
The test have been made by language professionals, and should be unbiased, and will quickly determine where the candidate is in relation to the four scores, "Expert", "Operational" and "Below Operational".
So whether "holistically" can be done over the phone or not is besides the point, and Canada becomes compliant on March 5, 2008...
Cheers
W
Please note that in the holistic descriptors it states that a candidate must demonstrate proficiency in both non-face to face AND face to face situations.
A test that does not simulate the latter is really not a compliant test.
For All, with regards to Midget Boy's statement about testing one's student, it is unethical to test your own student and whereas ICAO hints this JAA has stipulated in am.7 of the FCLs this procedure of not testing your own student.
Best to all,
PE"
How each state chooses to comply with the requirement as set forth in the ICAO document, is up to them, and no country complies the same way. Canada has chosen several differences, and one of them is in how the test is conducted (i.e. over the phone only), and also in the scoring, using only 3 levels.
The test have been made by language professionals, and should be unbiased, and will quickly determine where the candidate is in relation to the four scores, "Expert", "Operational" and "Below Operational".
So whether "holistically" can be done over the phone or not is besides the point, and Canada becomes compliant on March 5, 2008...
Cheers
W
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Dear Winnie, it is interesting how Canada has interpreted the standards. Do they test radiotelephony as well as plain language with this telephone test? Is this method for both pilots and ATC?
Best,
PE
Best,
PE
Last edited by planeenglish; 23rd Jan 2008 at 16:28.
Your radiotelephony test is part of your flighttest, in addition to the written test to Industry Canada
As for the interpretation of the ICAO process... well most countries interpret some of the rules differently (fligth/duty times, requirements for ratings, license renewals and so on) so if this is different too?? Well that is how it goes.
I believe it is the same test for Pilots as ATC. And current license holders will have been assesed in some way, be it through correspondence and previous tests, or even as simple as a phone-conversation with someone from TC.
In Canada it will most likely affect student pilots more than anyone. And like what was said previously in this thread, if english is NOT you first/native language, perhaps a brush up on listening skills, and immersion are the advices I'd give.
As for the interpretation of the ICAO process... well most countries interpret some of the rules differently (fligth/duty times, requirements for ratings, license renewals and so on) so if this is different too?? Well that is how it goes.
I believe it is the same test for Pilots as ATC. And current license holders will have been assesed in some way, be it through correspondence and previous tests, or even as simple as a phone-conversation with someone from TC.
In Canada it will most likely affect student pilots more than anyone. And like what was said previously in this thread, if english is NOT you first/native language, perhaps a brush up on listening skills, and immersion are the advices I'd give.
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Thanks for the info. I looked on the TC site and didn't find anything too recent but I did find out about the study group and all.
If you are an av eng tester you might be interested in a workshop in Poland this May on av. Eng testing. (mods, this is a non profit org.) Have a look here.
Best to all,
PE
If you are an av eng tester you might be interested in a workshop in Poland this May on av. Eng testing. (mods, this is a non profit org.) Have a look here.
Best to all,
PE