ICAO Language Proficiency Tests
I've just received my renewed UK CAA issued JAR-FCL ATPL, and as a remark in section XIII it just says "language proficiency: English". I assume they mean 'level 6', but there is no other indication. Seems somewhat vague to me 
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I've just received my renewed UK CAA issued JAR-FCL ATPL, and as a remark in section XIII it just says "language proficiency: English". I assume they mean 'level 6', but there is no other indication. Seems somewhat vague to me
The French DGAC have decided to award all their licence-holders level 6 French (without any compulsory test or exam), so it would seem reasonable that all CAA licence holders should be awarded level 6 English.
The French DGAC have decided to award all their licence-holders level 6 French (without any compulsory test or exam), so it would seem reasonable that all CAA licence holders should be awarded level 6 English.
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Have been flying for 40 years now and got my level 6 yesterday! It still won't help me understand the controllers in China, Thailand, Vietnam, Africa etc. 
It is also useless when the French, Spanish or North African controllers use their own native languages!
It is also useless when the French, Spanish or North African controllers use their own native languages!
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I've been following this thread for a while now, and I'm still puzzled over the fact that several of you have sat an exam while I have not heard a single word from my authorities. I've also asked my colleagues about this, and no one seems to know anything about it. So, if anyone could enlighten me about when and where these tests will take place, I'd be very grateful.
(I fly internationally in Europe)
(I fly internationally in Europe)
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I'm not totally sure but I believe we are all supposed to be in compliance (ICAO) by 2008, what our Asian airline did was to do an evaluation test from a company in Canada to see exactly what our own situation is, we now have full time English classes in progress, pilots and ATC specialists.
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I was unaware of this until an airline asked me to pass these tests at their own cost and they sent me to an english school to pass a computerized & oral tests.
this is serious, guys, if you don't comply with these requirement in less 4 months, they can take your license away until you satisfy with level 4 ICAO.
it is your business to comply with new regulation, the CAA won't run after thousand of pilots for this.
For british pilots, I don't see any problems as they may give you a level7 for life , but what about french pilots having a CAA UK license?
these tests have to be evaluated in a language school or in a center recognized by the CAA, it means high failure rate=more money for them!
I estimate the pass rate at 30% only in Europe.
this is serious, guys, if you don't comply with these requirement in less 4 months, they can take your license away until you satisfy with level 4 ICAO.
it is your business to comply with new regulation, the CAA won't run after thousand of pilots for this.
For british pilots, I don't see any problems as they may give you a level7 for life , but what about french pilots having a CAA UK license?
these tests have to be evaluated in a language school or in a center recognized by the CAA, it means high failure rate=more money for them!
I estimate the pass rate at 30% only in Europe.
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should we write to the CAA (license department) and ask for a new license with level 4 endorsement?
I have a certificate level 4, should I send it to the CAA?
my second question is : why do they ask for a level 4 if everybody is granted a level 4? is it a again a bureaucracy game to satisfy ICAO decisions?
I have a certificate level 4, should I send it to the CAA?
my second question is : why do they ask for a level 4 if everybody is granted a level 4? is it a again a bureaucracy game to satisfy ICAO decisions?
Last edited by dartagnan; 30th Nov 2007 at 16:26.
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Some countries have done their homework and some have not. In Mexico the union established a program that would allow pilots to test their language proficiency years ahead of the deadline and gave the airlines the anonymised results so they had an inkling of what lay ahead of them.
Other countries such as Austria (and Germany?) have done close to nothing and now clamour for extensions. In Austria we don't even have a licensed testing facility because our CAA hasn't given out any licenses yet. Under pressure from well organized general aviation lobbies they now propose to hand out at least level 4 to almost everyone in posession of a PPL or higher.
The 3 year extension to 2011 is sad because the whole program has been around for a good number of years but some CAAs chose to ignore it.
Even if most Austrian/German/Scandinavian pilots don't really need the program as they usually know enough English from school to understand communication beyond phraseology, a dabbling Germany will be a good excuse for Ukraine/Russia/etc. to grant similar "grandfather rights" to their pilots and controllers.
The current German/Austrian RTF licenses only test knowledge of phraseology. You could theoretically pass them without actually speaking English if you only memorize all the RTF wording.
Language Proficiency goes beyond that as it tests the ability to understand plain language, something that might be handy if you want to tell Krasnodar Approach what kind of dangerous goods you have on board or what kind of distress you're in. (And I assume that things go far worse than that outside my area of operations.)
To all those subjects of the Queen flaming against such tests or asking for self-certification: enjoy the world's favor for your language and play by the same rules as anyone else. Given your immigration rates being a subject of the queen doesn't prove anything about your language abilities and so authorities should test your knowledge even if your last name is listed in the Domesday book.
(Please forgive any mistakes, I have not been tested yet.)
Other countries such as Austria (and Germany?) have done close to nothing and now clamour for extensions. In Austria we don't even have a licensed testing facility because our CAA hasn't given out any licenses yet. Under pressure from well organized general aviation lobbies they now propose to hand out at least level 4 to almost everyone in posession of a PPL or higher.
The 3 year extension to 2011 is sad because the whole program has been around for a good number of years but some CAAs chose to ignore it.
Even if most Austrian/German/Scandinavian pilots don't really need the program as they usually know enough English from school to understand communication beyond phraseology, a dabbling Germany will be a good excuse for Ukraine/Russia/etc. to grant similar "grandfather rights" to their pilots and controllers.
The current German/Austrian RTF licenses only test knowledge of phraseology. You could theoretically pass them without actually speaking English if you only memorize all the RTF wording.
Language Proficiency goes beyond that as it tests the ability to understand plain language, something that might be handy if you want to tell Krasnodar Approach what kind of dangerous goods you have on board or what kind of distress you're in. (And I assume that things go far worse than that outside my area of operations.)
To all those subjects of the Queen flaming against such tests or asking for self-certification: enjoy the world's favor for your language and play by the same rules as anyone else. Given your immigration rates being a subject of the queen doesn't prove anything about your language abilities and so authorities should test your knowledge even if your last name is listed in the Domesday book.
(Please forgive any mistakes, I have not been tested yet.)
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Dartagnan
I understand that you feel very passionate about this.
But please stop commenting on issues that you have only a little knowledge of.
No one is going to be restricted from flying in four months time for not being ICAO compliant.
You are inadvertently creating a safety issue when you are worrying crews about the consequences of not being compliant.
Those who are tested below level four will be assisted in gaining the appropriate qualifications and not just hung out to dry.
If you have time, go and visit the ICAO site for language testing and when you have digested all of that and then looked through all the nuances and exemptions that can and will be issued, then maybe you can start commenting on the issue at hand.
In the meantime, I would kindly suggest that you refrain from scaremongering your colleagues.
Thanks
I understand that you feel very passionate about this.
But please stop commenting on issues that you have only a little knowledge of.
No one is going to be restricted from flying in four months time for not being ICAO compliant.
You are inadvertently creating a safety issue when you are worrying crews about the consequences of not being compliant.
Those who are tested below level four will be assisted in gaining the appropriate qualifications and not just hung out to dry.
If you have time, go and visit the ICAO site for language testing and when you have digested all of that and then looked through all the nuances and exemptions that can and will be issued, then maybe you can start commenting on the issue at hand.
In the meantime, I would kindly suggest that you refrain from scaremongering your colleagues.
Thanks
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"The UAE just resolved the problem by certifying ALL EK captains at level 6 !!"
That is totally rubbish.
Am not commenting any further on this thread as comments like the above are just annoying.
That is totally rubbish.
Am not commenting any further on this thread as comments like the above are just annoying.
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Ozymandias, thank you for that link to the CAA document.
My problem is that though native English speaker, I have a French licence, and all my flight tests are conducted in French and not with a native English speaker - so I will not be able to ask for level 6 upgrade at my next flight test.
But paragraph 2.1.1.3 is interesting - "Assessment of English language proficiency at level 6 need does (sic) not require assessment by an organisation or individual so qualified, and may be undertaken by another native English speaker".
I wonder if that means that I can just ring the CAA, ask to talk to licencing department, and request that my CAA FRTOL be amended to level 6? After all, you have to have good English just to get through the answering machine service!
My problem is that though native English speaker, I have a French licence, and all my flight tests are conducted in French and not with a native English speaker - so I will not be able to ask for level 6 upgrade at my next flight test.
But paragraph 2.1.1.3 is interesting - "Assessment of English language proficiency at level 6 need does (sic) not require assessment by an organisation or individual so qualified, and may be undertaken by another native English speaker".
I wonder if that means that I can just ring the CAA, ask to talk to licencing department, and request that my CAA FRTOL be amended to level 6? After all, you have to have good English just to get through the answering machine service!
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Bon jour a tous,
Now I woud like to be understood by all people out there.....I guess most of them pilots, flight attendants, flight engineers, ATCOS, and so on.....
Je voudrais que les exams soient aussi en francais, parceque le francais est depuis les annees 50-60 le numero 2 , apres l'anglais.....et comme dans l'aviation ,il est necessaire une ''back up''.Donc si je ne passerai le test en anglais, que j'aie le droit de le soutenir en francais oü espagnole ,oü italiano....quiqonqe je ferrai des vols en France, Espagne, l'Italie ...et ainsi de suite....n'est-ce pas???????????????????
Now I woud like to be understood by all people out there.....I guess most of them pilots, flight attendants, flight engineers, ATCOS, and so on.....
Je voudrais que les exams soient aussi en francais, parceque le francais est depuis les annees 50-60 le numero 2 , apres l'anglais.....et comme dans l'aviation ,il est necessaire une ''back up''.Donc si je ne passerai le test en anglais, que j'aie le droit de le soutenir en francais oü espagnole ,oü italiano....quiqonqe je ferrai des vols en France, Espagne, l'Italie ...et ainsi de suite....n'est-ce pas???????????????????
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My bit...again
Hello everyone,
Good job Farrell, nice to "see" you again. I have been posting on this forum for ages about the new LPRs and no one cared.
Well, for any of you who care you can hear what all levels sound like here and see how they are rated. This is a cd-rom issued by ICAO through voice samples sent in by teachers and testers like me. http://www.ulc.gov.pl/download/ICAO_LPR/
The document 9835 is being revised and should be released for distribution around Spring. Some slight changes have been made.
To Alpine Flyer, the grace period is not necessarily for those countries who chose to ignore the new standards. However, it will be those slackers who profit. The inability of larger countries who are trying to meet the standards to meet the 2008 deadline has prompted this "extension" of sorts (China has been trying to get compliant since early 2000 but there are so many pilots and ATC it is taking oodles of time). ICAO recently issued the mandate on what a country must do to if it is impossible to become compliant by 2008 ie, NOTAMS and AIM. This gives people who didn't know that in 2003 these standards were in place time to get compliant.
He who is deemed level 4 today still has three years to demonstrate level four if he is not then the CAA should not allow him to operate.
I have tested hundreds of pilots from over 20 different language backgrounds and the results show 64% are not compliant. It takes about 200 study hours to get from one level to another. (This is a rough estimate.) Of those there were Austrians, French, Swiss, Italian and various other countries which you list below as countries whose people usually speak English well enough.
For RYR-738-JOCKEY: It all depends on your CAA and which license you fly on. I know that there are very few compliant tests for pilots now and I know that some European countries have chosen their compliant tests. My CAA is in the process. Some CAA's have decided to perform their own test on site or have delegated FTOs or other institutions.
I have been busting my butt trying to inform people on these standards and how to get compliant for years. It's about time it is taken seriously.
Best to all,
PE
Good job Farrell, nice to "see" you again. I have been posting on this forum for ages about the new LPRs and no one cared.
Well, for any of you who care you can hear what all levels sound like here and see how they are rated. This is a cd-rom issued by ICAO through voice samples sent in by teachers and testers like me. http://www.ulc.gov.pl/download/ICAO_LPR/
The document 9835 is being revised and should be released for distribution around Spring. Some slight changes have been made.
To Alpine Flyer, the grace period is not necessarily for those countries who chose to ignore the new standards. However, it will be those slackers who profit. The inability of larger countries who are trying to meet the standards to meet the 2008 deadline has prompted this "extension" of sorts (China has been trying to get compliant since early 2000 but there are so many pilots and ATC it is taking oodles of time). ICAO recently issued the mandate on what a country must do to if it is impossible to become compliant by 2008 ie, NOTAMS and AIM. This gives people who didn't know that in 2003 these standards were in place time to get compliant.
He who is deemed level 4 today still has three years to demonstrate level four if he is not then the CAA should not allow him to operate.
I have tested hundreds of pilots from over 20 different language backgrounds and the results show 64% are not compliant. It takes about 200 study hours to get from one level to another. (This is a rough estimate.) Of those there were Austrians, French, Swiss, Italian and various other countries which you list below as countries whose people usually speak English well enough.
For RYR-738-JOCKEY: It all depends on your CAA and which license you fly on. I know that there are very few compliant tests for pilots now and I know that some European countries have chosen their compliant tests. My CAA is in the process. Some CAA's have decided to perform their own test on site or have delegated FTOs or other institutions.
I have been busting my butt trying to inform people on these standards and how to get compliant for years. It's about time it is taken seriously.
Best to all,
PE
Last edited by planeenglish; 2nd Dec 2007 at 12:18.
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ICAO recently issued the mandate on what a country must do to if it is impossible to become compliant by 2008 ie, NOTAMS and AIM. This gives people who didn't know that in 2003 these standards were in place time to get compliant.
Thanks in advance
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You can view the ICAO working paper here:
http://http://www.icao.int/icao/en/a...p/wp151_en.pdf
If for some reason you cannot directly link to the ICAO website, you need to visit http://www.icao.int
then Meetings;
36th session;
all working papers;
sort by number, and look for doc A36-WP/151
http://http://www.icao.int/icao/en/a...p/wp151_en.pdf
If for some reason you cannot directly link to the ICAO website, you need to visit http://www.icao.int
then Meetings;
36th session;
all working papers;
sort by number, and look for doc A36-WP/151