ICAO Language Proficiency Tests
Take me downwind
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This may be slightly off topic, but please allow me to add something to this discussion which I feel is relevant.
I'm not a native English speaker. But I'm from one of those countries (The Netherlands) where most pilots and controllers have adequate, or maybe even more then adequate, control of the English language.
From my personal experience however, I can tell you that I communicate most easily, and most efficiently with other non-native English speakers from North/Western European countries. Probably because they communicate more or less on my 'level'. Communicating with native English speakers is harder, because they tend to use more complicated words and grammar. It gets harder still if they expect me to have exactly the same knowledge of the language. If I tell them I don't understand, and they repeat the exact same words only faster and slightly agitated.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the aim should not be to make everyone perfectly fluent in English. That's hardly realistic. We should try to make everyone understand each other. And that means that many native English speakers can contribute as well. Stick to standard communication. Avoid long sentences and 'complicated' words. If someone doesn't understand you, try rephrasing your message or even splitting it up, preferably using simple language and speaking in a slow and clear manner.
For my younger colleagues, the first flights to a big U.S. airport are almost as hard from a communication point of view, as are those to the Far East. And while in the Far East you communicate with someone who is aware off his own shortcomings, in the U.S. you communicate with someone who will make it crystal clear to you that it's you who is lacking in the language skills department.
I'm not a native English speaker. But I'm from one of those countries (The Netherlands) where most pilots and controllers have adequate, or maybe even more then adequate, control of the English language.
From my personal experience however, I can tell you that I communicate most easily, and most efficiently with other non-native English speakers from North/Western European countries. Probably because they communicate more or less on my 'level'. Communicating with native English speakers is harder, because they tend to use more complicated words and grammar. It gets harder still if they expect me to have exactly the same knowledge of the language. If I tell them I don't understand, and they repeat the exact same words only faster and slightly agitated.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the aim should not be to make everyone perfectly fluent in English. That's hardly realistic. We should try to make everyone understand each other. And that means that many native English speakers can contribute as well. Stick to standard communication. Avoid long sentences and 'complicated' words. If someone doesn't understand you, try rephrasing your message or even splitting it up, preferably using simple language and speaking in a slow and clear manner.
For my younger colleagues, the first flights to a big U.S. airport are almost as hard from a communication point of view, as are those to the Far East. And while in the Far East you communicate with someone who is aware off his own shortcomings, in the U.S. you communicate with someone who will make it crystal clear to you that it's you who is lacking in the language skills department.
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Planeenglish,
Thanks for the link, but from the page i gather IELTS with a score of 5.5 or higher would suffice. Hoping that a 7.5 will translate to a Level 5 or 6.
Thanks for the help again.
Thanks for the link, but from the page i gather IELTS with a score of 5.5 or higher would suffice. Hoping that a 7.5 will translate to a Level 5 or 6.
Thanks for the help again.
FAA
My company just informed us that we need to get new FAA licenses with the endorsement on it. 2 bucks, the FAA theory is that the FARs require English proficiency, so if you have an FAA ticket, you are proficient.
For those of you appalled by Yanks on the radio, their's your answer! Better than KAL!
GF
For those of you appalled by Yanks on the radio, their's your answer! Better than KAL!
GF
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Galaxy Flyer,
I found this on the FAA site.
These 2 dollars get you a level four endorsement if I understand correctly. It seems then you will all be tested under the new criteria for testing according to the new standards just like everyone else.
So perhpas we yanks will need to brush up on our effective and standard comms. Do you agree?
Best to all,
PE
I found this on the FAA site.
These 2 dollars get you a level four endorsement if I understand correctly. It seems then you will all be tested under the new criteria for testing according to the new standards just like everyone else.
So perhpas we yanks will need to brush up on our effective and standard comms. Do you agree?
Best to all,
PE
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PA28-180,
I needed the IELTS to satisfy the University for language purposes. Wasted money on it as the Head of the school asked if i could understand him and vice-versa and told to take a walk.
I needed the IELTS to satisfy the University for language purposes. Wasted money on it as the Head of the school asked if i could understand him and vice-versa and told to take a walk.
Planeenglish:
Well, I didn't see any reference to Level 4 ICAO when I signed up for my new certificate earlier today. I don't think the FAA is planning on testing anyone beyond the examiner when the evaluation is given. Certainly not every 3 years. I suppose he/she could deny a new certificate if the examinee couldn't understand anything. Wouldn't that a funny eval. FAA: "flying was good, all maneuvers accomplished satisfactorily, but denied because the examinee didn't understand a word I said."
I will report what it says when I get it.
GF
PS, yes, we Yanks are horrible on the radio. An exam given on AIM and ICAO radio terms would be given flunk.
Well, I didn't see any reference to Level 4 ICAO when I signed up for my new certificate earlier today. I don't think the FAA is planning on testing anyone beyond the examiner when the evaluation is given. Certainly not every 3 years. I suppose he/she could deny a new certificate if the examinee couldn't understand anything. Wouldn't that a funny eval. FAA: "flying was good, all maneuvers accomplished satisfactorily, but denied because the examinee didn't understand a word I said."
I will report what it says when I get it.
GF
PS, yes, we Yanks are horrible on the radio. An exam given on AIM and ICAO radio terms would be given flunk.
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Bombay - Mumbai
Long ago, in the days the city was still named "Bombay"... The 1980s...
xxx
I was flying a DC8-63F cargo plane, US operator, ACMI for Air India.
My F/O was PNF, and was on R/T during approach and landing.
An argument started while we were clearing the active runway for taxi.
This, between my F/O and the control tower.
My F/O was accused to "make fun" of the Indian accent.
Would the captain report to the airport ATCO office.
xxx
We went to the office, the three of us...
It so happen that my F/O's was named R. Patel, born in India.
He had been for a few years in the US, but still had an Indian accent.
Lucky that Patel was not Muslim, and the Bombay ATCO was not a Sikh.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I was flying a DC8-63F cargo plane, US operator, ACMI for Air India.
My F/O was PNF, and was on R/T during approach and landing.
An argument started while we were clearing the active runway for taxi.
This, between my F/O and the control tower.
My F/O was accused to "make fun" of the Indian accent.
Would the captain report to the airport ATCO office.
xxx
We went to the office, the three of us...
It so happen that my F/O's was named R. Patel, born in India.
He had been for a few years in the US, but still had an Indian accent.
Lucky that Patel was not Muslim, and the Bombay ATCO was not a Sikh.
xxx
Happy contrails
The FAA position is that since US FARs require English proficiency, the fact that you have US certificate means you are proficient. To make ICAO happy, they are going to put "English Proficient" on the certificates. (I don't know if that's going to be a rating or limitation.) For the 90% of US pilots who never fly internationally, it'll be a waste of ink.
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To make ICAO happy
To make ICAO happy. 
This is hilarious seeing that the FAA pushed ICAO to do something about foreign pilots in FAA airspace not being able to understand American ATC. Just ask our good friend Thomas McSweeney!
Paleeze. This is a case of making the world adapt to the inefficeint manner of using the radio by Americans. It's cheaper and easier to point the finger and make everyone else learn to understand the Americans than spending money on teaching the Americans to atually use R/T and plain language.
Best,
PE
This is hilarious seeing that the FAA pushed ICAO to do something about foreign pilots in FAA airspace not being able to understand American ATC. Just ask our good friend Thomas McSweeney!Paleeze. This is a case of making the world adapt to the inefficeint manner of using the radio by Americans. It's cheaper and easier to point the finger and make everyone else learn to understand the Americans than spending money on teaching the Americans to atually use R/T and plain language.
Best,
PE
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Have you ever heard the Rev. Jesse Jackson...?
People (from the US) understand about 25% of what he says.
If you can understand him, you definitely qualify for ICAO Level 4
xxx
My worst aviation nightmares -
Jesse Jackson moonlighting as ORD Clearance Delivery ATC controller -
Or JFK Arrival ATIS being read by him...
xxx
Happy contrails
People (from the US) understand about 25% of what he says.
If you can understand him, you definitely qualify for ICAO Level 4
xxx
My worst aviation nightmares -
Jesse Jackson moonlighting as ORD Clearance Delivery ATC controller -
Or JFK Arrival ATIS being read by him...
xxx
Happy contrails
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I think english in the USA will be evaluated by their flight instructor during biennal flight review.
In the USA, it is not uncommon to see some licenced pilots with "not use of english in controlled airspace".
pilots with such endorsement are not allowed to fly in class A,B,C,D only E and G. Class E is controlled, but no radio contact requested unless IFR.
Examiners won't give you the "full" rating if you can not demonstrate english during:
-Oral examination (face to face )
-check ride.
In the USA, it is not uncommon to see some licenced pilots with "not use of english in controlled airspace".
pilots with such endorsement are not allowed to fly in class A,B,C,D only E and G. Class E is controlled, but no radio contact requested unless IFR.
Examiners won't give you the "full" rating if you can not demonstrate english during:
-Oral examination (face to face )
-check ride.
Dartagnan:
In 38 years, I never heard of either CFIs evaluating English or licenses with such restrictions on controlled airspace.
Any citations would be welcome. Mind you, I have heard some horrid English or passes for it.
GF
In 38 years, I never heard of either CFIs evaluating English or licenses with such restrictions on controlled airspace.
Any citations would be welcome. Mind you, I have heard some horrid English or passes for it.
GF
The CFI has nothing to do with this in the US. If you have a certificate, per the FAA, that is prima facie evidence that you are "English Proficient." The FAA Inspector's Handbook for ATP checkrides (I don't have the GA version) says if there is doubt about the applicant's ability to clearly speak, understand, read or write English when the applicant comes in for the written test authorization, the authorization should not be issued and the issue refered to a supervisior.
Twenty five years ago I remember a pilot at a freight company at KDFW who couldn't get an ATP. He was stuck with a CPL and was ex Vietnamese Air Force. His accent really was bad. Heard him one night flying a Twin Beech. He requested something from center. After three tries center said, "Cleared as requested." I figured it was middle of the night and they were just going to watch him on the radar and see what happened.
Twenty five years ago I remember a pilot at a freight company at KDFW who couldn't get an ATP. He was stuck with a CPL and was ex Vietnamese Air Force. His accent really was bad. Heard him one night flying a Twin Beech. He requested something from center. After three tries center said, "Cleared as requested." I figured it was middle of the night and they were just going to watch him on the radar and see what happened.
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Limitation on flying in controlled airspace
I had a Japanese student who was limited to flights outside controlled airspace due to a lack of English proficiency. It happens, but it's not very common. He could fly all the way from the Mid-West to Seattle that way though. (About 12 hours worth of flying). We had the limitation removed once his language skills reached an acceptable level.
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based on FAR61.103/123/153 , a FAA cfi can present a student to the FAA even if he doesn't speak english. He will be restricted and not authorized to use his radio and the back of his license will be:"not authorized to use English language in controlled airspace".
This is valid from private to ATP holders.So it is up to the CFI and the FAA examiners to decide if he read, speak, write, and understand the English
language.
FAR61.103/123/153
Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English
language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements
due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating
limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for
the safe operation of the aircraft;
(being allergic to English, is alright for the FAA
)
This is valid from private to ATP holders.So it is up to the CFI and the FAA examiners to decide if he read, speak, write, and understand the English
language.
FAR61.103/123/153
Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English
language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements
due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating
limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for
the safe operation of the aircraft;
(being allergic to English, is alright for the FAA
)
Last edited by dartagnan; 19th Feb 2008 at 20:42.
The FAA Inspector's Handbook has this paragraph:
All applicants must be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. Only an applicant who is unable to meet these requirements due to medical reasons (e.g., hearing impairment, speech impairment due to medical reasons) is permitted to be issued a pilot or flight instructor certificate with the limitation “NOT VALID FOR FLIGHTS REQUIRING THE USE OF ENGLISH.”
I've seen a bunch of certificates in 30 years and never seen that on one!
All applicants must be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. Only an applicant who is unable to meet these requirements due to medical reasons (e.g., hearing impairment, speech impairment due to medical reasons) is permitted to be issued a pilot or flight instructor certificate with the limitation “NOT VALID FOR FLIGHTS REQUIRING THE USE OF ENGLISH.”
I've seen a bunch of certificates in 30 years and never seen that on one!