ICAO Language Proficiency Tests
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Level 4??? What about a spell checker?
before treating this topic again, it is mandatory to make a premise:
It has been proved that a lot of Level-4 users find hard understanding a conversation between two or more native speakers interacting very fluently; if this conversation is simulated by telephone, a Level-4 user may not understand more than 40-50 % of the total.
Besides Level-4 has been automatically attributed to some pilots/intructors whose proficiency is below or near Level-3 ... It would sounds more than ridicolous while thinking that ICAO should promote safety ... many professional pilots had better improve their english before flying, interacting with others, making a pax communication ...
The main point of this thread concearns the suitability of ICAO levels with english language itself.
It has been proved that a lot of Level-4 users find hard understanding a conversation between two or more native speakers interacting very fluently; if this conversation is simulated by telephone, a Level-4 user may not understand more than 40-50 % of the total.
Besides Level-4 has been automatically attributed to some pilots/intructors whose proficiency is below or near Level-3 ... It would sounds more than ridicolous while thinking that ICAO should promote safety ... many professional pilots had better improve their english before flying, interacting with others, making a pax communication ...
The main point of this thread concearns the suitability of ICAO levels with english language itself.
That's why I'm an ATCO. ...You can't hear my spelling mistakes!! Hee!Hee!
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re from captain87
Hi square circuit
be sure that I still not have a Level-4 ...
I feel not ashamed by saying that I didn't get Level-4 ... I'm performing an advanced aeronautical english course just for that ! I'm young (20 years) and I humbly think that anything can be improved, especially a language !
I use english language more than italian language itself ! I study in english, I write in english, I speak english ... but actually I have not experienced big problems while doing so ...
You probably are more experienced than me at all !
Best of all,
captain87
be sure that I still not have a Level-4 ...
I feel not ashamed by saying that I didn't get Level-4 ... I'm performing an advanced aeronautical english course just for that ! I'm young (20 years) and I humbly think that anything can be improved, especially a language !
I use english language more than italian language itself ! I study in english, I write in english, I speak english ... but actually I have not experienced big problems while doing so ...
You probably are more experienced than me at all !
Best of all,captain87
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not so fast
In DEL last night, great problems for ESL (english second language) guys talking to other ESL guys, but from different base languages.
This is where the problem will be visible.
Just my Rupee's worth.
glf
This is where the problem will be visible.
Just my Rupee's worth.
glf
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re from captain87
dartagnan,
I stil not have a Level-4 because I I've not been tested yet ... What I did was a placement test not a proficiency test.
I will be tested after the completion of the course ...
Best Regards,
captain87
I stil not have a Level-4 because I I've not been tested yet ... What I did was a placement test not a proficiency test.
I will be tested after the completion of the course ...
Best Regards,captain87
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would have been better to do the test, and then the placement test.
all they want is your Euro, nothing else.
I see already these sharks going after students and telling them they have no chance to pass a flight test if they don't join their special level4 class to guaranty employment,or no airlines will want them and their career is already over unless they sign the big cheque for the 6-12 month of special airline pilot english course which will guaranty a first pass to any airlines..., etc, etc...
what say the FAA about this?
all they want is your Euro, nothing else.
I see already these sharks going after students and telling them they have no chance to pass a flight test if they don't join their special level4 class to guaranty employment,or no airlines will want them and their career is already over unless they sign the big cheque for the 6-12 month of special airline pilot english course which will guaranty a first pass to any airlines..., etc, etc...
what say the FAA about this?
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All...
As a pilot AND an ESL teacher, I can tell you one thing for sure-if ANYONE in language training offers ANY type of guarantee regarding timing and success, they are (as previously stated) nothing but a shark swimming after your money!
As all students are different, it's not possible to GUARANTEE that within a certain time frame, they will be successful. There are WAY too many factors involved that can affect a students outcome.
As a pilot AND an ESL teacher, I can tell you one thing for sure-if ANYONE in language training offers ANY type of guarantee regarding timing and success, they are (as previously stated) nothing but a shark swimming after your money!
As all students are different, it's not possible to GUARANTEE that within a certain time frame, they will be successful. There are WAY too many factors involved that can affect a students outcome.
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I would like to pick up a comment from His dudeness from the first page of the discussion:
It really is like this. Beeing a native speaker doesn't mean that one is understandable. Often I have the impression that those "hard to understand" controllers don't speak a foreign language and, therefore, cannot understand the problems of non-native speakers and continue to speak in their dialect.
Speaking understandable english IS important - as well for the guys from the island.
What I like most is the face of newbies, flying in UK airspace the first time. They get along with german controllers, austrian, danish, swedish, norwegian,swiss, dutch, even sometimes french or spanish ones, but when the first "scottish" london controller comes over the airwaves, I get those views...like Manuel´s "Que?"
Speaking understandable english IS important - as well for the guys from the island.
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A good point!
Accent is NEVER important UNLESS the listener is paying more attention to the ACCENT than they are to the MESSAGE. When this happens, as said in the movie "Cool hand Luke", "what we have here, is a failure to communicate"!
Accent is NEVER important UNLESS the listener is paying more attention to the ACCENT than they are to the MESSAGE. When this happens, as said in the movie "Cool hand Luke", "what we have here, is a failure to communicate"!
Take me downwind
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Hello everyone,
First off, despegue your level four endorsement is good until 2011. Then you will face a test. Look here.
Next, for dartagnan you write:
I did not steal money from captain 87 nor have I stolen money from anyone. To the contrary, I am working my arse off to make sure people do not steal money from pilots, companies, ATC, etc. I performed a placement test on captain 87 and his classmates because he is in an ATPL course that he must finish and be level 4 before he gets his license issued by the State. I was hired by his FTO, who were the FIRST in this country to actually do something about making sure their students leave the flight school able to speak aviation English at least at an Operational Level Four proficiency. I, as a teacher, must know which class to place my student in. If I have no knowledge of his level of English I would not be able to train him properly. He is in not prepared to take a proficiency test as he is a student pilot. The beginning of any language course starts with a placement test. It is simply part of the process-not a scam to steal money.
I do suggest that anyone who faces a proficiency test first try the free sample test given by the developers of the test. It is part of the standard to have a test "readily available" for those who must sit that exam for practice.
I am no shark. I know that there are companies trying to scare people. There was one person on this forum tricking people but I got him kicked off of here. He would be a shark. I have been hired by airlines to perform placement tests to understand the linguistic situation of their pilots and also to hold tests during recruitment selection.
They are not saying anything yet. You can check on the ICAO Safety website for updates and currently compliant countries.
For the record, monolingual speakers of any language do normally have more difficulty in understanding the problems one faces when talking with a person speaking a second language. Therefore they are less sympathetic to the listener. If you read in CRM syllabi "good communications" are referred to and also it is stated that they should be used but very few actually go into detail about how to use effective and "good" communications or even what they are. Communication skills can be learned and they should be taught, above all to those who are monolingual English speakers.
Best to all,
PE
First off, despegue your level four endorsement is good until 2011. Then you will face a test. Look here.
Next, for dartagnan you write:
would have been better to do the test, and then the placement test.
all they want is your Euro, nothing else.
all they want is your Euro, nothing else.
I do suggest that anyone who faces a proficiency test first try the free sample test given by the developers of the test. It is part of the standard to have a test "readily available" for those who must sit that exam for practice.
I see already these sharks going after students and telling them they have no chance to pass a flight test if they don't join their special level4 class to guaranty employment,or no airlines will want them and their career is already over unless they sign the big cheque for the 6-12 month of special airline pilot english course which will guaranty a first pass to any airlines..., etc, etc...
what say the FAA about this?
For the record, monolingual speakers of any language do normally have more difficulty in understanding the problems one faces when talking with a person speaking a second language. Therefore they are less sympathetic to the listener. If you read in CRM syllabi "good communications" are referred to and also it is stated that they should be used but very few actually go into detail about how to use effective and "good" communications or even what they are. Communication skills can be learned and they should be taught, above all to those who are monolingual English speakers.
Best to all,
PE
Last edited by planeenglish; 8th Feb 2008 at 19:27.
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Grammar tests, reading, and discussing social issues are just not relevant to you, and employers should scrutinise any test they use, or buy into. There are dozens of tests around, delivered mostly by language schools and university departments who do not really understand the industry needs. ICAEA have a conference in Warsaw in May, where they will try to hammer out some of the issues mentioned in this thread, including "who assesses the assessors?"
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Heard from an ex-colleague in far north east Asia that he was paired up with a skipper ( expat ) in a 3 crew operation. The said skipper had level 6 English, but missed most of the ATC transmission! Also did not understand some of the instructions! Golly, what kind of level 6 English was he tested to in Korea?
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PE....
Ace...perhaps this skipper was new to Korea?? If true, it's not hard to understand why he had difficulty copying Korean ATC...have you ever heard Korean ATC??
Ace...perhaps this skipper was new to Korea?? If true, it's not hard to understand why he had difficulty copying Korean ATC...have you ever heard Korean ATC??
Take me downwind
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Thanks LedZeppelin,
You forgot to add our link ICAEA.
Our issues on agenda for WAW are regarding tests and different types of testing solutions and development in hopes to introduce these new methods of testing to the public.
What you say is absolutely correct that grammar tests and the like are not the right testing tool for this job. I know for a fact there are many tests out there that do not test effective comms. The forum in WAW is a means of understanding testing strategies and rater accreditation.
It is not just for teachers of English but also for pilots and ATC and especially CAAs to help better understand a testing solution.
I am still trying to piece together a forum/seminar in Italy this Fall but will cover training solutions to help aid teachers, pilots and Operators find a real solution to their training needs not just two-bit language schools trying to make a buck.
I hope to meet you all there!
Best,
PE
You forgot to add our link ICAEA.
Our issues on agenda for WAW are regarding tests and different types of testing solutions and development in hopes to introduce these new methods of testing to the public.
What you say is absolutely correct that grammar tests and the like are not the right testing tool for this job. I know for a fact there are many tests out there that do not test effective comms. The forum in WAW is a means of understanding testing strategies and rater accreditation.
It is not just for teachers of English but also for pilots and ATC and especially CAAs to help better understand a testing solution.
I am still trying to piece together a forum/seminar in Italy this Fall but will cover training solutions to help aid teachers, pilots and Operators find a real solution to their training needs not just two-bit language schools trying to make a buck.
I hope to meet you all there!
Best,
PE
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Ace, I know what you mean...met 2 KAL expat skipper in NRT. They were not from English speaking countries; my F/O and I could hardly make out what they said and they had trouble understanding us. My #1 then asked if KAL need ICAO testing, to which they proudly announced they both attained LEVEL 6. When prodded further what their secret techniques were, they mentioned that KAL produced 40 sets of sample tests which they studied by rote day in day out. Lo and behold on the day of the test, they breezed through as the test was an exact copy of one of the 40 sample tests!
Small wonder with level 6 achieved with rote study, one can still blunder around with ATC communication.
I also come across crew with fairly good English skills who managed only level 4 or 5 simply because they had trouble during the tests administered by Korean staff who did not bother or unable to explain the steps clearly in English to the candidates!
Small wonder with level 6 achieved with rote study, one can still blunder around with ATC communication.
I also come across crew with fairly good English skills who managed only level 4 or 5 simply because they had trouble during the tests administered by Korean staff who did not bother or unable to explain the steps clearly in English to the candidates!
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Hey guys,
Just a thought, if i have done the IELTS ( British ) and got a 7.5/9, does that in any way exempt me from sitting for any further exams?
By the way i hold an Australian license.
Thanks
Just a thought, if i have done the IELTS ( British ) and got a 7.5/9, does that in any way exempt me from sitting for any further exams?
By the way i hold an Australian license.
Thanks
Thread Starter
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a non UK company is asking me for a FCL1.200 certificate.
this is for the english language??.
I have a UK Jar license, and I would like to know if the radio license is the same as this FCL1.200, or is it the written test VFR/IFR com?
where can I get this FCL 1.200 form?
this is for the english language??.
I have a UK Jar license, and I would like to know if the radio license is the same as this FCL1.200, or is it the written test VFR/IFR com?
where can I get this FCL 1.200 form?