Alpa Voted Out Of Usairways
Join Date: Jul 2006
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It is in someways a sad day. While I don't have a dog in this fight, I have in the past and probably will in the future. I will say this, "former" ALPA members will see what all the dues money went to pay for, and I suspect it will be a rude surprise. Who knows if they will allow them to reopen the award, I wouldn't think so, but you never know in front of a judge.
I do know that the legal fees will be expensive, and good luck collecting an assesment from those that are "happy" with the award. There is a lot of precedence that says if won't happen. The U.S. Air merger committee did everything but spit in the face of the arbitrator, given that even after being told not to focus on senoirity issues, their case did exactly that.
I also know that historically the U.S. Air MEC has been a bit of a wildcard. At a BOD meeting a few years ago they gave their word to vote for a certain canidate, only to change at the last minute.
I wonder if U.S. Air got a little of what they started with the way they treated the Piedmont and Empire mergers.
They next few years will be interesting to watch, I suspect the new union will tear itself apart, most of the time peace is much more difficult to win than the war to obtain it. I believe this may turn out to be one of those, be careful what you ask for......but hey I could be wrong.
I do know that the legal fees will be expensive, and good luck collecting an assesment from those that are "happy" with the award. There is a lot of precedence that says if won't happen. The U.S. Air merger committee did everything but spit in the face of the arbitrator, given that even after being told not to focus on senoirity issues, their case did exactly that.
I also know that historically the U.S. Air MEC has been a bit of a wildcard. At a BOD meeting a few years ago they gave their word to vote for a certain canidate, only to change at the last minute.
I wonder if U.S. Air got a little of what they started with the way they treated the Piedmont and Empire mergers.
They next few years will be interesting to watch, I suspect the new union will tear itself apart, most of the time peace is much more difficult to win than the war to obtain it. I believe this may turn out to be one of those, be careful what you ask for......but hey I could be wrong.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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I understand that the US Air pilots have had a tough career, I understand that they have been run over quite a few times,
But I fail to understand why the America West guys should subsidize the careers of the US Air pilots.
How is this a "Union" if they are willing to steamroll the west pilots?
I had heard that career cancer was not transferable, the east guys just proved that theory wrong.
Good Luck to all
But I fail to understand why the America West guys should subsidize the careers of the US Air pilots.
How is this a "Union" if they are willing to steamroll the west pilots?
I had heard that career cancer was not transferable, the east guys just proved that theory wrong.
Good Luck to all
Union Goon
Join Date: Feb 2000
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5030,
I read the award cover to cover!. Have you? The fence was a joke and fell the instant age 65 went through.
The fairness of a merger is NEVER determined by DOH. NO one is EVER satisfied with that (unless they are made the absolute top banana) as it does nothing to protect what you brought to the table (unless of course you are made number 1, which over the long term is what was EXACTLY done for the AMwest pilots, since the USair pilots will retire en masse in a very short period of time)
The fairness of a merger is determined by fences. Even if they had fenced off only philly and not the rest of the USair operation there would have been something approaching fairness. Then you could have stapled the USair pilots and they would still have had what they brought to the table as far as their career expections. They would have had a chance of rapid upgrades due to retirement, and still would have born the full risk of furloughs, WHICH is exactly what they brought to the table.
And America West (which wasn't as rosey as you paint it) would have had relatively fewer retirements and less risk of furlough. Bland safe and stable. Exactly what America West had before.
Instead the westies let a few geezers past them on the list, but they will be retired very soon, so it doesn't really effect them, INSTEAD, they got to benefit from an enourmous wave of retirements that was never theirs to start with. They were granted with the stroke of a pen, the equivielent of 15 years of service.
The westies absolutely won the lottery. Watch em all go east be captains soon. They had no experience with mergers and got very lucky from a very poor arbitrator. The Easties and done integrations before, (piedmont-allegeny, allegeny-mohawk, Usair-trumpshuttle) Binding arbitration in the USA is a travesty, because there is no avenue of appeal when a mistake is made, and I have seen several mistakes lately. ("Sick if needed" arbitration at AA had a result that has no grounding in law, and didn't even look at the sections of the contract provided by either side, but there is no avenue of appeal) If it had gone the other way around the westies would have been squealing.
Cheers
Wino
(Disclaimer, I have NEVER been a USair or America West pilot in any capacity or for any subsidiary or feeder, IOWs, I am the closest thing to a true neutral party here, I have been an ALPA member twice, a teamster twice and am in the APA. I am a strong supporter of ALPA, but not in this case. They were wrong)
I read the award cover to cover!. Have you? The fence was a joke and fell the instant age 65 went through.
The fairness of a merger is NEVER determined by DOH. NO one is EVER satisfied with that (unless they are made the absolute top banana) as it does nothing to protect what you brought to the table (unless of course you are made number 1, which over the long term is what was EXACTLY done for the AMwest pilots, since the USair pilots will retire en masse in a very short period of time)
The fairness of a merger is determined by fences. Even if they had fenced off only philly and not the rest of the USair operation there would have been something approaching fairness. Then you could have stapled the USair pilots and they would still have had what they brought to the table as far as their career expections. They would have had a chance of rapid upgrades due to retirement, and still would have born the full risk of furloughs, WHICH is exactly what they brought to the table.
And America West (which wasn't as rosey as you paint it) would have had relatively fewer retirements and less risk of furlough. Bland safe and stable. Exactly what America West had before.
Instead the westies let a few geezers past them on the list, but they will be retired very soon, so it doesn't really effect them, INSTEAD, they got to benefit from an enourmous wave of retirements that was never theirs to start with. They were granted with the stroke of a pen, the equivielent of 15 years of service.
The westies absolutely won the lottery. Watch em all go east be captains soon. They had no experience with mergers and got very lucky from a very poor arbitrator. The Easties and done integrations before, (piedmont-allegeny, allegeny-mohawk, Usair-trumpshuttle) Binding arbitration in the USA is a travesty, because there is no avenue of appeal when a mistake is made, and I have seen several mistakes lately. ("Sick if needed" arbitration at AA had a result that has no grounding in law, and didn't even look at the sections of the contract provided by either side, but there is no avenue of appeal) If it had gone the other way around the westies would have been squealing.
Cheers
Wino
(Disclaimer, I have NEVER been a USair or America West pilot in any capacity or for any subsidiary or feeder, IOWs, I am the closest thing to a true neutral party here, I have been an ALPA member twice, a teamster twice and am in the APA. I am a strong supporter of ALPA, but not in this case. They were wrong)
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Wino,
You contend that fences determine the "fairness" of a merged list.
We have been operating operating seperately for two years now, with a "virtual fence" in place that isolates west and east operations. Since the merger, every new aircraft on the property has gone east. Every bit of growth has gone east. All of the furloughees have been recalled and hundreds of upgrades have taken place, all on the east. The west has upgraded fewer than fifty people, has taken delivery of no new aircraft, and has shrunk in every measurable metric. The result has been complete stagnation of the west.
These are not the result of the east's much vaunted "attrition", but the systematic shifting of corporate resources to the east in an attempt to capture the higher yields that exist there.
If you are looking for the proverbial lottery ticket, there it is, and the west doesn't hold it.
There was/is no reason to believe that this will not continue.
What you propose as a fence to "protect" the east would, in reality, be a fence that would restrict the west to an ever shrinking domicile and reserve all growth for the east; all in the name of protecting the "attrition" that was of dubious value the day prior to this merger, and denying to the west what were their reasonable pre merger expecations of growth.
As for the "rosiness" of the situation at AWA, what I posted was factual.
At the time of the merge, AWA was solvent, adding airplanes and hiring pilots. US Airways was not. What part of this is spin?
As for the granting of "the equivalent of 15 years service", consider that 15 years of service at the pre merge US Airways bought you a junior FO position on the bottom of the list. Post merger, it bought exactly the same thing, a junior FO position on the bottom of the list. At pre merger AWA 3 years service bought you a junior FO position at the bottom of the list. Post merger, the exact same thing. Who's got more, the guy with $1.50, or the guy with 1 Euro?
If any west pilots "go east" to be captains, they will be west pilots whose seniority level would have allowed them to upgrade at pre merger AWA, and whose pre-merger career expectations included the reasonable expectation of that upgrade.
I disagree with your opinions expressed in your last paragraph, inre arbitration and this particular arbitrator. Just because you don't get everything you ask for doesn't make the process flawed. (Not speaking to the SIN arbitration, only arbitration in general)
Thanks for the civil discourse.
You contend that fences determine the "fairness" of a merged list.
We have been operating operating seperately for two years now, with a "virtual fence" in place that isolates west and east operations. Since the merger, every new aircraft on the property has gone east. Every bit of growth has gone east. All of the furloughees have been recalled and hundreds of upgrades have taken place, all on the east. The west has upgraded fewer than fifty people, has taken delivery of no new aircraft, and has shrunk in every measurable metric. The result has been complete stagnation of the west.
These are not the result of the east's much vaunted "attrition", but the systematic shifting of corporate resources to the east in an attempt to capture the higher yields that exist there.
If you are looking for the proverbial lottery ticket, there it is, and the west doesn't hold it.
There was/is no reason to believe that this will not continue.
What you propose as a fence to "protect" the east would, in reality, be a fence that would restrict the west to an ever shrinking domicile and reserve all growth for the east; all in the name of protecting the "attrition" that was of dubious value the day prior to this merger, and denying to the west what were their reasonable pre merger expecations of growth.
As for the "rosiness" of the situation at AWA, what I posted was factual.
At the time of the merge, AWA was solvent, adding airplanes and hiring pilots. US Airways was not. What part of this is spin?
As for the granting of "the equivalent of 15 years service", consider that 15 years of service at the pre merge US Airways bought you a junior FO position on the bottom of the list. Post merger, it bought exactly the same thing, a junior FO position on the bottom of the list. At pre merger AWA 3 years service bought you a junior FO position at the bottom of the list. Post merger, the exact same thing. Who's got more, the guy with $1.50, or the guy with 1 Euro?
If any west pilots "go east" to be captains, they will be west pilots whose seniority level would have allowed them to upgrade at pre merger AWA, and whose pre-merger career expectations included the reasonable expectation of that upgrade.
I disagree with your opinions expressed in your last paragraph, inre arbitration and this particular arbitrator. Just because you don't get everything you ask for doesn't make the process flawed. (Not speaking to the SIN arbitration, only arbitration in general)
Thanks for the civil discourse.
Union Goon
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Well, if the growth is in the East, it would appear then that the EAST pilots brought the more valuable network to the party, would it not? Kinda blows a bunch of holes in the whole who "brought what to the party" arguement. No airline is abandoning ANY profitable flying these days. IF your side is shrinking, it would seam to indicate that it is not profitable. However, this is not a pissing match I am looking to have, its more about the relative age of each list.
But tell me, HOW MANY RETIREMENTS happened on each seniority list during that period. That is what you are flat out refusing to credit, and for people who live and die by seniority lists, the age of a seniority list is of tremendous value, and that was completely disregarded. While an Eastie guy may have been on furlough, he still could have been 2 or 3 years from upgrade. Retirements were happening that fast.
What was the time to upgrade for the last person upgraded the day before the merger? Compare that with from Furlough to left seat on the East and that gives you a better idea of the relative fairness...
But tell me, HOW MANY RETIREMENTS happened on each seniority list during that period. That is what you are flat out refusing to credit, and for people who live and die by seniority lists, the age of a seniority list is of tremendous value, and that was completely disregarded. While an Eastie guy may have been on furlough, he still could have been 2 or 3 years from upgrade. Retirements were happening that fast.
What was the time to upgrade for the last person upgraded the day before the merger? Compare that with from Furlough to left seat on the East and that gives you a better idea of the relative fairness...
