French DGAC award English pilot only level 5 English!

[MarkerInbound]

Airbubba,

It has come here. All new FAA certificates now state that you are "English Proficient." So you are now a Level 4 English speaker.

[Fliegenmong]

" Apparently, there was recently a New Zealander who only just reached level 4! "

Did very well then.....

[er340790]

Calling Trof.........

Trof from the Canada section is the expert in all Anglofone/Francofone matters........

TABERNAC!!!!!

[Dan Winterland]

Apparently, wot I speek is level 6 engleesh.



I acheived this by being tested by a English chap. During the test, it transpired we were from the same part of the UK. So some of the test was done in the Norfolk dialect!

But he has awarded some of my antipodean colleages 5s. Not suprising really!

[411A]

Just received the 'new' FAA license in the mail.

Yep, there it is...'English proficient'
No 'level' nonsense'

FAA, far less complicated.
However, don't make the mistake in thinking that an FAA type rating is somehow 'easier'.
Rude awakening, if so.

[Old King Coal]

Why oh why, when flying over Africa, do French speaking pilots (and some ATC units) seem to insist on providing position reports in French ?!

Nb. Much / most of Africa is a 'procedural' operations area, with no radar coverage... so using Aviation English for position reports helps improve the situational awareness of all concerned.

And don't even get me started on the number of RNAV equipped aircraft I see cruising along bang-slap in the middle of African airways (somewhat unsurprisingly, nearly always with a French speaking crew onboard)....
Have you never heard of using an 'offset' and / or is it that you don't know how to set your FMC to do this ?!

[Taxi2parking]

Dear 411A


Poor chap, I get a lot of junk mail too....

[BEagle]

The thought of Dan conversing with his examiner in 'Singing Postman' dialect made me chuckle!

"Roight, boy?"

Amazed that you found a fellow web-finger in Honkers!

[Level 400]

Couldn't resist a chuckle too as one originating from the Eastern Counties!

'Hev yore far got a dickey bor?'

Blast bor, you gotta larf!

Put a level of english on that!

Level 400

[richatom]

There is clearly no point in me re-taking the test, as I can't improve my mother tongue. I think the only solution is that next time I go to England, I get my level upgraded to 6 by a CAA examiner (I have a UK PPL and FRTOL so this should not be a problem).

Any idea how I do this? Are there regional centres where I can get my level evaluated? Or do I have to go to Gatwick? If anybody knows of an examiner in Carlisle/Newcaste area that would be very helpful.

I can't wait to start arguing with the French DGAC when I present an FRTOL annotated to level 6. They will have a real problem accepting that an English examiner is good enough to judge the English competence of an English pilot...

[5 RINGS]

get rid of your French Licence mate, there's no use trying to have French DGAC admitting they're wrong...

advise from a French native speaker pilot holding a CAA printed fATPL, making his way back to the island in a few weeks time...

If you really want to enjoy France, well get a UK job with a house in France and enjoy our fantastic wines ;-)

[Me Myself]

To all

Unless you want to end up in a straightjacket, DO NOT, repeat DO NOT argue with the DGAC !!!
I was talking to AF training captains the other day, DGAC wrote them off from the examiners list for having ticked the wrong box in their test report. The test was cancelled. On top of that they were asked to report for an official apology for having been rude on the phone and seriously breached the rules.
Anyone tempted ???
I'm taking the test this week and thought it was going to be a walk in the park

[Guava Tree]

French DGAC Policy

Translation of by http://babelfish.altavista.com of
http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/h...DF/info_LP.pdf is:

GENERAL CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF The EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: the 1/5 11/03/08 INSTALLATION OF the CONTROL OF LINGUISTIC ABILITIES DEFINI BY the ICAO 1. the INTERNATIONAL REQUIREMENTS to reinforce the level of safety of the civil aeronautics, the Council of the ICAO adopted on March 5, 2003 the amendment n°164 which introduced into appendix 1 with the convention on the international civil aviation of the new requirements relating in particular to the linguistic abilities of the members of control crew. Thus, as from March 5 20081, to penetrate in an airspace the pilots of an aircraft will have to justify of a level of sufficient expression and comprehension of the language used in the radiotelephonic communications. The holders of a professional licence of pilot of aircraft must have on their licence a mention of their linguistic ability, and this one will have to be maintained in a state of validity for the exercise of their profession. This requirement relates to all the pilots of plane or helicopter, professionals or non2. Appendix 1 of ICAO defined a rating scale of these new linguistic abilities and a period of validity. This rating scale includes/understands 6 levels: 1. Functional Elementary Préélémentaire 2. 3. Pre 4. Operational 5. Advanced 6. Expert At March 5, 2008, level 4 (operational) is the minimum required for the pilots, including for the titular pilots of a licence before this date. The period of validity of the linguistic ability is a function of the level obtained by the pilot at the time of a control carried out by an appointed inspector: ?. level 4: valid 3 years?. level 5: valid 6 years?. level 6: valid with life. Since the initial evaluation will have concluded on a level 4 or 5, the pilot will have to satisfy a periodic control in the 3 years or the 6 years for the extension of this linguistic ability. CAUTION: The new requirement on the linguistic abilities should not be confused with aptitude "FCL1.200" for the English language required to affix a qualification of instrument flying (IR) on a licence of professional pilot (CPL). 1 Expiry 5 years of time of application of amendment 164 of appendix 1 of the ICAO, adoptee the 5/03/2003 2 air controllers are also subjected to this requirement DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF the EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: the 2/5 11/03/08 2. APPLICATION OF THESE NEW RULES IN FRANCE In France, the evaluation of the linguistic abilities will relate only on the French language and the English language, which are the 2 languages used by French air control. The pilots wishing to obtain a linguistic ability in another language (Spanish, German, Russian, etc....) will have to address themselves to the authority of a State organizing the linguistic abilities in this other language. The service of the licences of the DGAC will carry the completion dates of validity of the linguistic abilities in French and/or English language on the French licences of pilot. 2.1 INITIAL EVALUATION OF the LINGUISTIC QUALIFICATION LEVEL 2.1.1 PROFESSIONAL PILOTS the initial evaluation of linguistic ability must have passed in a center of the DGAC. There will be an evaluation for the IFR and an evaluation for the VFR. Concerning the IFR, the evaluation will be combined with examination FCL1.200 already organized by the DGAC. Since the session of July 2007, the candidates with the FCL1.200 are evaluated simultaneously on this new competence and can obtain the initial aptitude of their linguistic ability in English language, which takes into account only the notes allotted to the 2 oral tests of examination FCL 1.200. NB: The notation of the tests was modified in order to be in conformity with the new regulation of the ICAO. It is necessary to obtain at least 10/20 with each test to be declared received; weakest of the notes to the oral tests the final level allotted to the candidates determines. A new examination VFR will be organized by the DGAC. 2.1.2 PILOTS DEPRIVE the new regulation (see §2.4) does not introduce new constraints for pilots PPL. It however makes it possible to pass the evaluation of the linguistic abilities in English (and French) for those which would like to be subjected to such a test. The possibility offered to the holders of PPL to subject itself the linguistic ability proof English VFR enables them to satisfy the requirements of appendix 1 of the ICAO. It is responsibility for the French pilot to determine if it must or not have this certificate of linguistic qualification level when it undertakes a flight in VFR towards a foreign country by contacting the foreign Authority concerned. The DGAC does not carry out the control of the licences at the exit of the French airspace. However, it appears necessary to recall that all the pilots eager to fly, in flight plan to the instruments, in airspace requiring the use of the radiotelefony in English language must have shown an aptitude to use this language by making a success of examination FCL 1.200 (cf point 4.3.3. subparagraph 2 E the decree of 24 July 1991 relating to the conditions of use of the civil aircraft in general aviation). As from March 5, 2008, they must be titular aptitude FCL 1.200 and linguistic ability in English language at least of level 4. DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF The EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: the 3/5 11/03/08 2.2 the PERIODIC CONTROL OF LINGUISTIC ABILITY the pilot will be able to pass periodic control (if it obtained level 4 or 5)?. maybe in a center of the DGAC?. maybe in an external organization approved by the DGAC (language proficiency organization: LPO). The contents and the support of the tests are identical in all the centers of examination, which they act of centers of examination DGAC or LPO. Periodic control can have passed in the 12 months preceding the expiry by validity of the linguistic ability in progress, the new validity leaves the following day of the day when the preceding one expired; on the other hand if control passed more than 12 months before the expiry of validity of the linguistic ability in progress, the new validity leaves the date of the control which was anticipated of more than 12 months. The failure with a periodic control does not call into question the expiry of validity of the held linguistic ability. 2.2.1 PRESENTATION 2 types of control are organized by the DGAC according to the selected environment: - VFR - IFR aptitude IFR is worth aptitude VFR a control includes/understands two oral tests: ?. Listen of band: The test consists to listen to and retranscribe elements of the sound track (14 messages of air control (10 to 1 point and 4 to 2 points), and a ATIS or VOLMET (at 2 points). This test lasts one approximately 15 minute, and is noted from 0 to 20?. Fictitious flight: The candidates work in binomials. The test proceeds entirely in English, it consists of a series of exchanges between the candidate having the role of the pilot and the inspector that of an organization of the Air traffic control, during a phase of a fictitious flight. With the exit of the flight, the binomial opens an envelope in which it finds a sentence emergency or of unusual situation written in French, that it must state in English with the first candidate. This one must announce in English the situation with control; the situation is then reversed with the other candidate of the binomial. This test one duration maximum of approximately 25 minutes for each candidate is noted from 0 to 20. 2.2.2 INITIAL EVALUATION OF the LEVEL the linguistic qualification level is given from smallest of the notes obtained with the 2 oral tests: Level 4 is allotted if this note is at least equal to 10, Level 5 is allotted if this note is at least equal to 14, Level 6 is allotted if this note is less equal to 18 (recall: any note lower than 10 is eliminatory) DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF the EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: 4/5 11/03/08 2.3 LIMITED PERIOD: MARCH 5, 2008? MARCH 5, 2011 the regulation envisaged a transitional provision for the benefit of the pilots, who at the date of March 5, 2008, are titular on the one hand qualification of instrument flying in a state of validity and on the other hand have the qualification of international radiotelefony (QRI) or the aptitude for English language "FCL 1.200". It will be automatically allotted to them: - level 4 for the English language (valid at the latest until March 5, 2011). However, of March 5, 2008 to March 5, 2011, with the first intervention of the one of the following acts: ?. the delivery or renewal of a qualification of class or type?. the delivery or renewal of a qualification of instructor?. the delivery or the renewal of an authorization of inspector, it will be requested from the pilots to produce the proof that they satisfied a periodic control of linguistic ability in English language in a center of examination of the DGAC or an approved organization. With defect, the qualification or the required authorization could be delivered to them, but the linguistic ability in English language which had been granted to them at the latest until March 2011 will be stopped at the date of delivery (or renewal) of the qualification of type/classe, the qualification of instructor or the authorization of inspector. Even when they profit from the transitional measure, the pilots can present once as many as they wish it with the control of linguistic ability, because a failure with this control does not have any consequence on the linguistic ability in progress. In addition, all the titular pilots of a French licence and holding the privileges of the radiotelefony in French language are seen allotting level 6 (valid with life) for the French language. To hold account of the difficulty for all the pilots of being in good time informed of the application of the transitional measures of the decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics, the affixing of a qualification of the type, class or instructor required before September 1, 2008 and from which the formation began before March 5, 2008 does not give place to the modification of expiry of the linguistic ability in English language obtained to the title of the transitional measures envisaged by the decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics. In addition, considering that the renewals of qualification of the type, class, instructor and authorization of inspector which intervene less than 3 months after the end of validity of the qualification or the authorization concerned do not leave the possibility of an anticipation sufficient for the passage of the control of linguistic ability, those do not give place to the modification of expiry of the linguistic ability in English language obtained with the title of the transitional measures envisaged by the decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics. (cf decision of March 4, 2008) DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF the EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: 5/5 11/03/08 2.4 TEXTS REGLEMENTAIRES decrees published in the Official Journal of May 16, 2007: ?. Decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics and modifying various provisions?. Decree of 24 April 2007 modifying the decree of 27 January 2000 relating to the mode of the examination of aptitude for the English language for the flying personnel of the civil aeronautics, candidates with the qualification of instrument flying?. Decree of 24 April 2007 fixing the mode of the test of aptitude linguistic according to rules' of flight at sight?. Decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the organization by the general direction of the civil aviation of the control of the linguistic qualification level in English language or to the French language of the personnel flying personnel of the civil aeronautics?. Stopped of 24 April 2007 relating to the approval of the organizations in charge of the control of the level of the linguistic abilities of the pilots of planes and helicopters being used to prove that they are able to speak and understand the language used in the radiotelephonic communications?. Instruction of 22 November 2007 relating to the approval of organizations LPO in charge of the control of the level of the linguistic abilities of the pilots of planes and helicopters being used to prove that they are able to speak and understand the language used in the radiotelephonic communications?. Decision of March 4 08 relating to the conditions for application of the decree of 24/04/07 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics.

[roch]

Just got the ICAO level 6 box ticked when I took my FRTOL test, despite the fact that I'm a french speaker and that my english is just passable...

[ECAM77]

THE CAA IN GERMANY (LBA) ISSUED ME LEVEL 4, WHILE AN ENGLISH SCHOOL IN AUSTRALIA CERTIFIED ME A NATIVE SPEAKER ABILITY. I HAVE HEARD CHINESE PILOTS GOT LEVEL 6 ISSUED!

[alemaobaiano]

One thing to remember is that none of the tests being applied worldwide are actually a test of your English skills, but your AVIATION English skills, so it is perfectly feasible for a native to score less than 6.

Being English does not automatically confer level 6, and why should it? My grandson speaks excellent English, is he automatically a level 6? There are many other tests you can take to demonstrate your competence in the English language generally, but the DGAC test being used to grade ICAO levels is testing your ability to communicate, in English, in an aviation environment.

How good the individual tests are, well that's an entirely different subject

TTFN

[411A]

Poor chap, I get a lot of junk mail too....

The US Post Office, being rather efficient in this locale, simply marks all the junk mail from Europe as 'return to sender'.

[ehwatezedoing]

411A

Same here with Transports Canada.
No Levels just a proficiency. And I got both French and English

[Farrell]

Folks...

There really is no point in having a blag session over failing to reach ICAO standards.

I had two "native speaking" pilots from one of the largest airlines in the Middle East go into a hissy fit a while ago having been rated at ICAO Level 5.
They are operational. No big deal to me.
"How can I be a five? I've a native Australian!"

Here's your answer. It is NOT just about being able to speak English. It is also about proper use of ICAO phraseology.
You have had years of warnings about these exams and yet you just sit there before going into the exam having absolutely no idea what you are about to do.

If I corralled 10 of you in the briefing room today, I would reckon maybe, just maybe, one of you would know the ICAO criteria.

Having a go at the French for you not translating into proper phraseology or syntax is not on. Can I hazard a guess and say that you didn't study for it? Or check out what the content was?

I get this every day at the moment. "But that's grammar!" "Why do have to say day-see-mal? Point is fine!"

[richatom]

Here's your answer. It is NOT just about being able to speak English. It is also about proper use of ICAO phraseology.

Not according to the CAA - read the level 6 evaluation form. No mention at all of requiring competence in ICAO phraseology.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1199.pdf
ICAO phraseology is what is examined in the r/t exam for your FRTOL.

Having a go at the French for you not translating into proper phraseology or syntax is not on. Can I hazard a guess and say that you didn't study for it? Or check out what the content was?

I think you are leaping to conclusions there. If I remember correctly from the exam, there were several instances of recorded ATC/Pilot conversations where they did NOT use correct syntax or correct r/t procedures. Rather than writing them out word for word with their errors, I just wrote down what they said using correct grammar and syntax, but without changing in the slightest the meaning. I did not see my exam papers afterwards, but from memory there was an example where an American pilot said "I'm gonna take next left", and I wrote "I am going to take the next left". I seem to remember another where I heard "d'I climb to level 100" and so in answering I hesitated between answering "and I climb to level 100" and "I climb to level 100". If you get three errors out of twenty, you are eliminated from level 6. However, certainly none of my "errors" were enough to change in any way my comprehension of the examples, or how others would understand me. And certainly my aeronautical French is nowhere near as good as my Aeronautical English - yet I have level 6 French!

And by the way, I did prepare for it - and if you wish to try the test yourself, there are examples here:

http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/h...00/trafic.html

In the exam, you get twenty of those, and if you fail to understand more than two words in all twenty examples, you will be eliminated from level 6. For example, if you answered "continue your radar heading" to Q3, that would be regarded as incorrect. But have a go youself and tell me if you can understand absolutely every word - and then ask yourself whether you think that reason to justify eliminating you from level 6. I'd be intrigued to hear your answer to number 5!