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It's time to give IFALPA serious POWER...

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It's time to give IFALPA serious POWER...

Old 8th Apr 2008, 05:11
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It's time to give IFALPA serious POWER...

Globalization is upon us.
We need to set minimum world standards for equipment rates of pay ,hours of service ,training , crew complement on long haul flying and many more issues on a world-wide basis.

The airlines are rapidly preparing their business models and shaping the influence of government to adapt. If we do not do the same, we'll spend many years just trying to catch up.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 05:32
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Yep, do it now....just when some airlines are going out of business and the cost of jet fuel is soaring.

Kinda bad timing, I would think.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 06:03
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jacjetlag how are you going to make allowances for the enormous differences in living costs around the World?

Globalisation means a multi national will now decide to build cars or aircraft parts in China or India or similar because it is easy to transport the finished article and much, much, cheaper due to lower labour costs and living costs.

It just isn't feasible to have pilots, or any other profession, on the same pay scales throughout the world.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 12:35
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If you really want to change pilot pay and bring pilots into the modern labor market it is simple. Dump the seniority system. Until that happens pilots are indentured labor, tied to their employer who gets to apply the screws, slowly and in increments, but always a little tighter. Just enough pressure so the pain will numb, but not too much to make the victim walk.
Airlines have, or are rapidly getting, the flexibility to move freely in a global market, pilots do not. Advantage owners.
When pilots become a flexible commodity like capital or other skilled labor the tables will turn.

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Old 8th Apr 2008, 13:11
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Dump the seniority system. Until that happens pilots are indentured labor, tied to their employer who gets to apply the screws, slowly and in increments, but always a little tighter. Just enough pressure so the pain will numb, but not too much to make the victim walk.
Airlines have, or are rapidly getting, the flexibility to move freely in a global market, pilots do not. Advantage owners.
When pilots become a flexible commodity like capital or other skilled labor the tables will turn.

Ahhh, well this is a rather narrow view.
That statement disregards the very many pilots who move freely between companies on a global basis...IE: such as the pilots that apply and are accepted by foreign airlines into either the left or right hand seat.
These folks move expecting greener pastures for a variety of reasons, and altho some of these folks do not especially find the nervana of aviation in these new positions, many others certainly do.
In reality, only folks that will not move, are 'stuck'.
In addition, the higher cost of operating aircraft and the inability of some airlines to truly reflect these higher operating costs in their ticket prices (reading, USA here, altho this applies to other markets as well) will continue to drive down the cost of labor, pilots included.
The so-called 'pilot shortage' will not be enough to counter this trend, in my view, nor will the pressure brought by pilot unions.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 13:13
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It just isn't feasible to have pilots, or any other profession, on the same pay scales throughout the world.
But it feasible to ensure that everybody's drops! You keep what you protect and you lose what you don't.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 13:53
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Well said 411A, I suspect you are old enough to be jecjetlag's
Grandfather!

jecjetlag, the kind of utopia you spout would only be possible in a perfect, world wide, communist society, do we have that or anything close to it now? Can you honestly see it happening in the near future?
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 14:57
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411a - I agree, pilots need to be mobile. It is the seniority system that keeps them "stuck"

There are very few jobs that operate internationally to such a common standard as a pilot. A boeing is a boeing in China or Seattle. A jepp plate is a jepp plate. There is even a common language, of sorts.

What ever the reasons in the past in todays market the seniority system in an airline works to the employers benefit. Not the pilots. No other industry does this.

The downward pressure on wages will continue. Piloting is just not the exclusive skill it once was. Planes are easier (safer) to fly and the education level required to be a pilot is that high that the locals can't do it.

Any 20 something going into flying today better be prepared for a vagabound life. This applies to a lot of other jobs as well.


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Old 8th Apr 2008, 15:26
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The Solution

Get Rid of ALPA/IFALPA

My airline is in the midst of an election to get rid of ALPA at our airline.

Very sadly, ALPA has not watched out for what I consider important.

concepts of seniority have been lost at alpa. when someone with 20 years of service is slotted junior to someone with 6 years of service, we can assume that the definition of seniority is lacking somewhere.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 15:42
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What about an IFALPA seniority list? That could be the beginning.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 20:22
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IFALPA Seniority List

Fine idea...so how do we make it up? By date of obtaining ATP? By date of first paying dues at an ALPA airline?

Or just by tossing all the names into a hat and pulling them out one by one?

Any of the above is fine with me. But don't call it seniority when someone with 6 years at an airline is merged in senior to someone with 20 years at another airline.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 23:34
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IFALPA Seniority list hmmm there's an idea - tell me ,who would administer it? Are you aware that there are just 14 full time staff on the IFALPA payroll plus four part time consultants?...so that would be interesting...

Just to give you an idea in one position that I know of in IFALPA, US ALPA has no less than 44 staffers...

Just wondered where the extra capacity would come from...

Oh and seven just before you bin IFALPA (or ALPA) ask youself these questions: Who is standing for the pilot position when the rules get made? - That's right who is going to speak up for pilots (and get listened to) at ICAO when single pilot cruise ops rules come up for discussion? - Wait a minute why just limit it to cruise? Ok how about who was elemental in creating a system where metric RVSM could work safely?

I could list all the stuff that IFALPA has done in the last sixty years (and one day as it happens) but it's late you can find out on the website.
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Old 9th Apr 2008, 01:42
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IFALPA

who will speak for pilots?

well, the southwest pilots seem to be doing ok with their inhouse union. American Airlines pilots are doing ok...they haven't lost their pensions.
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Old 9th Apr 2008, 08:13
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Sure maybe they have (so far) but ask these questions:

Do the SW pilots have an observer seat on the ICAO ANC (maybe an observer but it's in the front row and has the same - or better clout than the management)?

Do the APA?

Do the SW pilots get appointed to ICAO panels and WGs (the bits that actually make the rules)

Do the APA?



Nope, thought not...

Understand I'm not knocking the pilots of either group, rather pointing out why IFALPA remains important for all pilots.
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Old 9th Apr 2008, 13:43
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Seniority: Once you’ve got it, you want to keep it, and “I’m alright jack”; completely understandable 411A….unless your airline goes under (which I hope doesn’t happen).

Keep seniority systems to reward loyalty – extra holiday, better bidding rights etc… but surely even you would appreciate that if your airline went under tomorrow, you would hope to find a position on a not-too-dissimilar wedge of $$$.

Why do people continue to support a system that is so biased in benefits to the employers? (Perhaps I've already answered my own question)

Pay should increment with experience / ability, but not length of service.. I can completely understand the evolution of how we got here, but aviation needs to mature as an industry from the generation that were first in and looked after themselves. The future is not full of only the protected big players.

IFALPA seniority?? Won't that just price union members out of the market?? - Fine by the employers, I'm sure.

Nothing wrong with being an idealist, but global fixed wages?… I don’t think we’re there yet!
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Old 13th Apr 2008, 02:01
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Unless the unions respond to cabotage and new open skies ownership rules there will be outsourcing and very soon ,foreign nationals flying your country's domestic routes. Stand by and do nothing?
Not really a choice , is it? Adapt or perish.
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Old 13th Apr 2008, 03:48
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Adapt or perish is about right. Adapt means changing your ways but most pilots seem to think, I use that term very loosely, in terms of recreating the old system of regulated carriers (government appointed monopolies) and the associated labor monopoly with the seniority list.
Won't happen. Just like we are not going to impose textile quotas to keep bubba working in NC, air traffic will never go back to what it was.
The public wants the cheap T shirt, the cheap plane ticket and the public has a lot more votes.
The only thing that will make a difference is workers voting with their feet and walking out. And what keeps you where you are? The seniority list?

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Old 13th Apr 2008, 04:53
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There is a finite limit on how cheap aviation can be. Comparing it to a t-shirt is invalid. The public will not tolerate a cheap but unsafe airline industry. Numerous carriers have probed the depths of cost cutting to the point of being unsafe....and they are long gone.
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Old 13th Apr 2008, 16:28
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If the public perceives a difference in safety between carriers they will vote with their feet. However looking at commercial aviation in the US there is no difference so people select based on service factors, price being the main one.
Fact is deregulated aviation today is safer than regulated aviation back 20 years ago. (Don't start jumping up and down, I'm not saying the deregulation made it safer, but the trend has being safety is getting better for many years)

It is never going back to what it was. Pilots need to get a plan B or pack the backpack.
The rule in the new economy is every single job is out to bid and if you want to earn more you need to be ready to move to get it. The idea of sitting around on a list waiting your turn is a joke.

Can you tell me a single job in the world where 10 years experience means you start at the bottom if you go to a new employer?

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Old 13th Apr 2008, 18:51
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Fact is deregulated aviation today is safer than regulated aviation back 20 years ago. (Don't start jumping up and down, I'm not saying the deregulation made it safer, but the trend has being safety is getting better for many years)

It is never going back to what it was. Pilots need to get a plan B or pack the backpack.
The rule in the new economy is every single job is out to bid and if you want to earn more you need to be ready to move to get it. The idea of sitting around on a list waiting your turn is a joke.
Absolutely, positively, definitely....correct.
Those that think differently are in a dream world...perhaps just where they truly belong.
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